The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Stormcrow]

The apostles were not gathered off the earth

{30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. {31} "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (NASB)

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Please indicate in this passage where there is any mention of His apostles being taken off the earth.

 

[reba]

It can be applied to much of the bible,have you ever noticed that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would die,Adam ate the fruit and in fact he did not die for another 900years! So the bible starts off with a strange and huge time lapse between the time when God told Adam he would die and the day he actually died

I say Adam died when he ate the apple:yes....but that would be another topic

 

[Stormcrow]

but you refuse to apply the same literal interpretation to 'coming in the sky where every eye will see and gathering the believers', why the double standard

Because you refuse to see the symbolism inherent in the phrase "coming on the clouds of the sky" as representing His coming in judgment!

I've posted examples like the following before but I dare say everyone who believes as you has never stopped once to see if there is any precedent for these terms in the Old Testament.

Guess what?

THERE ARE!!!

{7} "In my distress I [David] called upon the LORD, Yes, I cried to my God; And from His temple (what temple? Solomon's temple hadn't yet been built!)He heard my voice, And my cry for help came into His ears.

{8} "Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry. {9} "Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it. {10} "He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. {11} "And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. {12} "And He made darkness canopies around Him, A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

{13} "From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled. {14} "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. {15} "And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. {16} "Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare By the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils. 2 Samuel 22:7-16 (NASB)

Now, look at the same language used in Matthew and Revelation and you tell me if this is to be taken literally, or if it's apocalyptic language symbolizing the wrath of God.

When Paul told Timothy to "study to show himself approved", he wasn't telling him to study the New Testament: it hadn't even all been collected or canonized yet!

He was telling him to study the OLD TESTAMENT, because that's where the key's for gentiles wishing to understand the apostle's words were to be found!

What did Peter quote in all his preaching in Acts??? THE OLD TESTAMENT!!!

I can only encourage you to study the OT. You'll NEVER understand what the New Testament writers were trying to convey until you do.

 

[Stormcrow]

I say Adam died when he ate the apple:yes

And cursed all mankind with death, both spiritual and physical.

Thanks, "dad!"

;)

 

[jasoncran]

Because you refuse to see the symbolism inherent in the phrase "coming on the clouds of the sky" as representing His coming in judgment!

I've posted examples like the following before but I dare say everyone who believes as you has never stopped once to see if there is any precedent for these terms in the Old Testament.

Guess what?

THERE ARE!!!

{7} "In my distress I [David] called upon the LORD, Yes, I cried to my God; And from His temple (what temple? Solomon's temple hadn't yet been built!)He heard my voice, And my cry for help came into His ears.

{8} "Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry. {9} "Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it. {10} "He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. {11} "And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. {12} "And He made darkness canopies around Him, A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

{13} "From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled. {14} "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. {15} "And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. {16} "Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare By the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils. 2 Samuel 22:7-16 (NASB)

Now, look at the same language used in Matthew and Revelation and you tell me if this is to be taken literally, or if it's apocalyptic language symbolizing the wrath of God.

When Paul told Timothy to "study to show himself approved", he wasn't telling him to study the New Testament: it hadn't even all been collected or canonized yet!

He was telling him to study the OLD TESTAMENT, because that's where the key's for gentiles wishing to understand the apostle's words were to be found!

What did Peter quote in all his preaching in Acts??? THE OLD TESTAMENT!!!

I can only encourage you to study the OT. You'll NEVER understand what the New Testament writers were trying to convey until you do.

psalms is considered hebrew poetry,but if one does that with all metaphoralical literature then the creation account should be taken that way by the hebrews of old but its not.

 

[warhorse]

. Gods version of shortly is simply longer than we expect,


The' God's time is different bit' is so weak I m surprised any body still tries to use it. But if it made sense we could apply it to every word in the entire book.

What you are attempting is to make God's plain statements unknowable as though He were incapable of communication the notion is patently ridiculous and smacks of desperation.

You can do better.

i have simply shown that neither of our position's fit the (must be shortly fullfilled) standards that you are applying to my position. And yet strangly ignore for your own. The question then is where do you think we are according to the Rev sequence of event's? i believe we are in the 5th seal.

 

[Sam21]

I personally do not believe that the scroll in the hand of the Father has been opened at all. It is all in the future.

 

[Sam21]

SC,you seem unable to distinguish between metaphore and literal, you are taking something that the context clearly demonstrates as metaphoric in the OT and are attempting to use it as some kind of excuse to change something that the context clearly shows is literal in the NT. It is very obvious what you are doing and it is incorrect. Jesus gave a literal description of His actual return to gather the saints,David gave a metaphoric description of how he felt God saved him,duh and double duh. Is this hard to recognize?

 

[Hitch]

i have simply shown that neither of our position's fit the (must be shortly fullfilled) standards that you are applying to my position.

Not even close ,see below

And yet strangly ignore for your own. The question then is where do you think we are according to the Rev sequence of event's? i believe we are in the 5th seal.

You're insisting that the message has little or nothing at all to do with the original audience. A serious mistake.

 

[Hitch]

SC,you seem unable to distinguish between metaphore and literal, you are taking something that the context clearly demonstrates as metaphoric in the OT and are attempting to use it as some kind of excuse to change something that the context clearly shows is literal in the NT. It is very obvious what you are doing and it is incorrect. Jesus gave a literal description of His actual return to gather the saints,David gave a metaphoric description of how he felt God saved him,duh and double duh. Is this hard to recognize?

Its impossible to see it in the R1;7 text you presented.

 

[Hitch]

It can be applied to much of the bible,have you ever noticed that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would die,Adam ate the fruit and in fact he did not die for another 900years! So the bible starts off with a strange and huge time lapse between the time when God told Adam he would die and the day he actually died

The bible starts off with God telling Adam something specific addressed personally to him that came true as constrasted with John who ,in your scheme, told the 7 churches things that were going to happen thousands of years future and never come true in their lifetimes.

 

[Hitch]

I personally do not believe that the scroll in the hand of the Father has been opened at all. It is all in the future.

For almost 2,000 years the Gospel has been proclaimed and the enemy's camp raided ,as per the image of 'the 'sword that proceeded out of His mouth'.

 

[Stormcrow]

SC,you seem unable to distinguish between metaphore and literal, you are taking something that the context clearly demonstrates as metaphoric in the OT and are attempting to use it as some kind of excuse to change something that the context clearly shows is literal in the NT.

Who wrote the bulk of the NT, Sam???

That's right - even you can admit it...JEWS!!!

And who would know better the symbols used in the OT and how to apply them in the New???

That's right...JEWS!!!

And who was David???

And who was David's seed????

And who were the apostles of David's seed?????

AND WHO INSPIRED THE WRITINGS OF BOTH THE OT AND NEW????????

Just because you can't see the continuity of thought and purpose between the two, don't tell me that what I'm doing is "incorrect."

The apocalypse of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (also called "The Revelation") IS NOT ABOUT YOU, ME, OR US AND THE WRITERS OF THESE BOOKS MADE THAT *CLEAR!!!

*(For anyone willing to consider what the Word actually says and NOT try to use it to defend an indefensible doctrine! )

 

[Stormcrow]

psalms is considered hebrew poetry,but if one does that with all metaphoralical literature then the creation account should be taken that way by the hebrews of old but its not.

Guess I don't understand the point of this, Jason.

Are you suggesting that because the language used to describe God's wrath is "poetic", His wrath isn't real?

What about this passage?

{13} "Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!" Jeremiah 4:13 (NASB)
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{1} The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (NASB)
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{2} A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. {3} The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet. Nahum 1:2-3 (NASB)
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The point of every one of these verses is to demonstrate the power and wrath of God IN JUDGEMENT on His enemies!

This same language is seen in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

 

[warfrog]

Not even close ,see below You're insisting that the message has little or nothing at all to do with the original audience. A serious mistake.

Who was the original audience?
I am the original audience, so was John, and whomever else is Christ's.
The message was for the body! not the toes or the hand. It was for the body!

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[warfrog]

Who wrote the bulk of the NT, Sam???

That's right - even you can admit it...JEWS!!!

And who would know better the symbols used in the OT and how to apply them in the New???

That's right...JEWS!!!

And who was David???

And who was David's seed????

And who were the apostles of David's seed?????

AND WHO INSPIRED THE WRITINGS OF BOTH THE OT AND NEW????????

Just because you can't see the continuity of thought and purpose between the two, don't tell me that what I'm doing is "incorrect."

The apocalypse of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (also called "The Revelation") IS NOT ABOUT YOU, ME, OR US AND THE WRITERS OF THESE BOOKS MADE THAT *CLEAR!!!

*(For anyone willing to consider what the Word actually says and NOT try to use it to defend an indefensible doctrine! )

Correction, who wrote the majority of the N.T? Paul, Paul was the "pastor" to the Gentile church AND regarded the Jews at the exact same time, Paul spoke to both Jew and Gentile because the body is made up of both.
Even Peter was rebuked by Paul through the Lord for being secular to the Jews, and Peter was rebuked!
Gods message through Christ was not for the Jews it was for the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile and Revelations was not written for the Jews, it was written for the Body of Christ.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Christ, Jesus.

 

[Sinthesis]

Correction, who wrote the majority of the N.T? Paul, Paul was the "pastor" to the Gentile church AND regarded the Jews at the exact same time, Paul spoke to both Jew and Gentile because the body is made up of both.
Even Peter was rebuked by Paul through the Lord for being secular to the Jews, and Peter was rebuked!
Gods message through Christ was not for the Jews it was for the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile and Revelations was not written for the Jews, it was written for the Body of Christ.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Christ, Jesus.

Saul/Paul is a Jew. Jesus was first sent only to the Jews because their's was the one culture promised and therefore expecting the Messiah. Yet Jesus knew faith rather than culture would be the actual determinate of His eventual followers. After the Jewish leaderships rejection of the gospel, the gospel was then sent out to the gentiles. Revelation was written to proclaim to God's people the cataclysmic events accompanying the Church's emergence from a Judaism to be soon baptized by fire in judgment. It also proclaims the growth and eventual triumph of Christianity in the world.

 

[Stormcrow]

Correction, who wrote the majority of the N.T? Paul

OK...you really got me there!

Paul wasn't really a Jew, and the majority of the NT wasn't written by Jews (you know, Levi a.k.a. "Matthew", James, John, Peter, Mark - am I missing anyone?)

Yep these were all gentiles and the only Jewish writer of the NT was Luke. :bigfrown

Seriously, if this is the strongest argument you have against my posts, I weep for you.

 

[Stormcrow]

I personally do not believe that the scroll in the hand of the Father has been opened at all. It is all in the future.

You can believe anything you want. Personally, I believe the moon is made of green cheese and those who view it while full turn into 6' tall carnivorous pink bunnies.

In the meantime, I prefer not to let my "personal beliefs" cloud my judgment as to what the Word either does or does not say. I would rather deal in facts and the facts are these:

1. Jesus said that the generation to whom He was speaking would be held accountable for all the innocent blood shed on earth (including His). Matthew 23
2. Jesus said that while His disciples would face "tribulation" for believing in His name, this would be a sign of a "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem. Matthew 24
3. Jesus said what that "great tribulation" would look like. Luke 19, 21
4. Jesus said His disciples and the "tribes of the land" would see Him coming on the clouds and mourn. Matthew 24, Revelation 1
5. Jesus told John to write these events were "soon" and "near" and that He was "coming quickly" and that Paul said His coming would be "like a thief in the night" but that His followers would not be caught "unawares." Rev. 1, 22, I Thess. 5
6. All of these things - especially His coming in judgment as vengeance for the Jews breaking His covenant with Him - happened in 70 AD, EXACTLY as He prophesied!

Those are the facts regardless of what either of us believes.

I don't have to rest on beliefs or the vain imaginings of false teachers to understand this stuff. It's all right there in the Word, if you'll take Him at it.

 

[Stormcrow]

Gods message through Christ was not for the Jews it was for the Body of Christ

{5} These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; {6} but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7 (NASB)

{24} But He [Christ] answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24 (NASB)

Hmmmmm...I wonder what He meant by this???

Sorry. Not seeing the "Body of Christ" here. He wasn't finished with "the house of Israel" until vengeance had been taken on the generation that crucified Him.