The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[jasoncran]

Why do you say "Dude, none of us are that old. and you gotta be kidding me?"

Does the body of Christ have an age?
Is the Holy Spirit growing older?
The saints are not saints because of thier age, the saints are saints because of the promise, that whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ will have eternal life and that eternal life is granted at His coming when we are gathered together up into Him, ALL of us in Him.
I am as much a part of Christ as Paul was, or any other called by Him, i am a small peice of the body of Christ, all of His make up that body, Christ being the head.
Therefore a message to the saints, the church, a peice of the body is a message to the whole body until it is fullfilled.

I kid you not.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

the holy spirit isnt us, he dwells in us and works through us but that doesnt support your age doctrine. as you werent a jew that was in sin and rejection to that verses adress and also neither were you there as the early church didnt have this bible we had. they had various letters and also what ever other unwritten words of wisdom or what not that was inline with the septuagaint and or known revalations. the nt must be in unison with the ot inorder for the latter to be valid and that is what paul and others that preached and wrote epistles did.

now then, the original audience is all dead and with the lord, so then how could you be there and here. in unity you are correct but that doesnt support your idea at all.

 

[warhorse]

BTW, those passages from Isaiah you cited??? All fulfilled in 586 BC with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians.

70 AD wasn't the first time Israel broke God's covenant. You should read about it sometime.

I will address both #331 and #332 here.

Zec 12v8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I have read it, in fact the answer is right in front of you. God did not rise up to defend Jerusalam in 70 Ad the temple and the peaple were in fact destroyed, the nations that came against Jerusalam won. and reigned on earth for a couple of hundred years after it. THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NOT ABOUT DESTROYING ISRAEL FOR THEIR SIN, its about saving israel for Gods namesake. And destroying the world for its sin.

 

[warfrog]

the holy spirit isnt us, he dwells in us and works through us but that doesnt support your age doctrine. as you werent a jew that was in sin and rejection to that verses adress and also neither were you there as the early church didnt have this bible we had. they had various letters and also what ever other unwritten words of wisdom or what not that was inline with the septuagaint and or known revalations. the nt must be in unison with the ot inorder for the latter to be valid and that is what paul and others that preached and wrote epistles did.

now then, the original audience is all dead and with the lord, so then how could you be there and here. in unity you are correct but that doesnt support your idea at all.

The original audience is not dead, and shall never be through Him.
The Holy Spirit is in me as it is in all of His.
The original audience is all that have His Spirit and will be made incorruptible from corruption at His coming, Jew and Gentile.
The original audience is not dead, the ones you speak are asleep and are not with the Lord, but shall be with Him with all who are His at His coming.
Do you not have the letters? The early church not only had the letters but those who wrote them through the Holy Spirit, and so do we, for we have the letters by those who wrote them through the Holy Spirit.
Paul spoke through the Holy Spirit as did all that you have the letters from that make sciptures, which is the Word of God.
Those letters are for His, His are all that have His Spirit and who will have His Spirit because we are all the body of Christ, Christ being the Head, the unison of all is at His coming when the whole body is gathered together to Him, that is the completion, when corruption takes on incorruption and we are forever with the Lord.
It isnt an idea, it is truth.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

The original audience is not dead, and shall never be through Him.
The Holy Spirit is in me as it is in all of His.
The original audience is all that have His Spirit and will be made incorruptible from corruption at His coming, Jew and Gentile.
The original audience is not dead, the ones you speak are asleep and are not with the Lord, but shall be with Him with all who are His at His coming.
Do you not have the letters? The early church not only had the letters but those who wrote them through the Holy Spirit, and so do we, for we have the letters by those who wrote them through the Holy Spirit.
Paul spoke through the Holy Spirit as did all that you have the letters from that make sciptures, which is the Word of God.
Those letters are for His, His are all that have His Spirit and who will have His Spirit because we are all the body of Christ, Christ being the Head, the unison of all is at His coming when the whole body is gathered together to Him, that is the completion, when corruption takes on incorruption and we are forever with the Lord.
It isnt an idea, it is truth.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

why stop with the audience of revalation? why not abrahams serveants? uh dead, where are they? why did peter say we have david sepulchre to this day? if he wasnt dead? has the dead been raised yet. paul spoke about sleeping in christ.

now then what was life like then and did you know peter and the apostles? think about your claim. no one of knows the audience personally and its foolish to say that we do.

 

[warfrog]

why stop with the audience of revalation? why not abrahams serveants? uh dead, where are they? why did peter say we have david sepulchre to this day? if he wasnt dead? has the dead been raised yet. paul spoke about sleeping in christ.

now then what was life like then and did you know peter and the apostles? think about your claim. no one of knows the audience personally and its foolish to say that we do.

I dont need to know who Peter was as a man, Peter himself cursed his manhood, Peter lived not for the flesh but for the Lord.
Through the Lord all of His (including Peter) have whats is needed to be in common, the Holy Spirit, and those who have His Spirit and live for light casting out darkness are all going to be made one in the Lord.
Do I know who Peter was as a man? no, do I know who Peter was through the Lord? Yes.
When Peter spoke to His through the Holy spirit, he spoke to the body and we know the body is made up of many but the body all lives for that Day, when corruption is made incorruptible at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am unsure what you mean by stop at the audience of Revelation, all scriptures are for His and it is a witness through the Holy Spirit that all may believe in Him.
Revealtions is the final account, Revelations shows what will come at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, what will follow after until we dwell with God and Christ forever and ever in the new earth and new heaven and New Jerusalem.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[warhorse]

Tell me something


If I write ;
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


in the year 50 AD , what does it mean?

If I write ;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

in the year 70 AD, what does it mean ?

If I write ;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

in the year 90 AD , what does it mean?


shortly come to pass means the same thing in each case doesnt it?

Now if you care to go on about the date of authorship thats fine, you cant prove it one way or the other,.

Nothing unless you insist that the audiance it was meant for died in 70 ad, as stormcrows position is. I simply stated that the primary audiance for the rev was not in those 7 churches untill after and because of the destruction of Jerusalam in 70 AD. Pauls 1st and only visit to that region ended in 57ad, only 10 years before the destruction of Jerusalam, hardy a powerhouse for christ or the jews.

 

[jasoncran]

ok,so you dont believe that the ot is inspired? you claim you were there when the audience of revalation was written what of the hebrews that recieved the law and did the law and were counted faithful and true? ie joshua and caleb? those that did follow it did recieve a reward. God did reserve a thousand men who didnt bow the knee to baal.

am i getting this right if one doesnt believe in the pre-trib rapture one isnt saved? so if that is correct and you state then you have just discounted most saints since the time of the finishing of the bible till about two hundred yrs ago as until darby and schofield the pre-trib concept didnt exist.

 

[Sam21]

Well Sam God is gracious and in His perfect graciousness He laid up the blood guilt on the generation that literally murdered His Son, by name Israel of the first century Such a glaring error is easy to recognize Well thats high sounding Sam and it has no effect whatever that Christ's prophecied judgements came to pass where (Israel) and when (first century) they did.

You are still missing the obvious,PART of the prophecies of Jesus came to pass in the first century. Jerusalem was destroyed as was the Temple and the Jews were scattered and ceased to be a nation...that absolutely came true literally and physically in the first century as prophecied by Christ. Christ return in the sky with the angels and gathering the saints off the earth absolutely did not take place. Christ placed all of those events in the context of literal and physical...so the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints did not occur,so part of what Christ prophecied did occur in the first century and part did not.

 

[Hitch]

You are not, may you be for His glory.
I am a part of that original audience.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

LOL.

 

[Hitch]

Nothing unless you insist that the audiance it was meant for died in 70 ad, as stormcrows position is.

I dont believe that is Storms position, and neither do I believe the first line of Revelation is meaningless.

I simply stated that the primary audiance for the rev was not in those 7 churches untill after and because of the destruction of Jerusalam in 70 AD. Pauls 1st and only visit to that region ended in 57ad, only 10 years before the destruction of Jerusalam, hardy a powerhouse for christ or the jews.

I cant imagine a relevant point for the rest of your post.

 

[Hitch]

You are still missing the obvious,PART of the prophecies of Jesus came to pass in the first century. Jerusalem was destroyed as was the Temple and the Jews were scattered and ceased to be a nation...that absolutely came true literally and physically in the first century as prophecied by Christ. Christ return in the sky with the angels and gathering the saints off the earth absolutely did not take place. Christ placed all of those events in the context of literal and physical..

Well that explains the dragon and all

.so the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints did not occur,so part of what Christ prophecied did occur in the first century and part did not.

so the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints did not occur


Duh.

 

[warfrog]

ok,so you dont believe that the ot is inspired? you claim you were there when the audience of revalation was written what of the hebrews that recieved the law and did the law and were counted faithful and true? ie joshua and caleb? those that did follow it did recieve a reward. God did reserve a thousand men who didnt bow the knee to baal.

am i getting this right if one doesnt believe in the pre-trib rapture one isnt saved? so if that is correct and you state then you have just discounted most saints since the time of the finishing of the bible till about two hundred yrs ago as until darby and schofield the pre-trib concept didnt exist.

Why do you say i dont think the Ot was inspired?
They werent counted faithful and true because they followed the law, they are counted faithful and true because they have faith in God and follow Him.
Was Abraham accounted righteousness because of his work or because of his faith in God, look when God ask's Abraham to take his son Isaac and sacrifice him, look what Abraham tells his servants, Abraham knew before he even left that he would not be sacrificing his son, Abraham knew God and followed Him.

"Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!"
And he said, "Here I am."
Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

"And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and WE will come back to you."

Abraham a liar? No. Abraham knew God and here is the greater revelation of the Holy Spirit, what Abraham tells his son Isaac when Isaac ask where the lamb for the burnt offering will come from.

"My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering."

The lamb God would provide for Himself for a burnt offering that Abraham was speaking of was the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Abraham knew God.
It was accounted to Him in righteousness.

The O.T is certianly God inspired, it is the Word of God.

I am of the audience Revelations was written for, Revelations was written to the body of Christ, I am through the Lord Jesus Christ a part of the body of Christ and I shall be raised through Him with all of His when He comes.

If one defiles God's word and denies Him he is in danger, I am no judge, i cannot say one is saved or not saved, God's grace and mercy is poured out by Him, not I.

The teachings of man are a path to destruction, the word of God is truth.
If you say Christ has come, you are on the path of destruction, that is truth.
If you say, it is done, when God has not, you are denying God.

When He returns and gathers all up into Him, those who sleep and those who do not in Him, then it is done. It did not happen in 70 A.D, there was no beast and no false prophet, no armies, no mark, no image, no slaughtering of the saints, no return of Christ and no resurrection.

There was however, war and destruction as there has been since the beggining of time because man is wicked.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hitch]

You've stretched a half truth to the breaking point. The command to cross the Jordan was written to the 'Body of Christ' as was the entire canon of scripture. Im surprised you chose such a silly place to hide.

 

[warhorse]

I dont believe that is Storms position, and neither do I believe the first line of Revelation is meaningless. I cant imagine a relevant point for the rest of your post.

A quote from stormcrow in post 319

You can believe anything you want. Personally, I believe the moon is made of green cheese and those who view it while full turn into 6' tall carnivorous pink bunnies.

In the meantime, I prefer not to let my "personal beliefs" cloud my judgment as to what the Word either does or does not say. I would rather deal in facts and the facts are these:

1. Jesus said that the generation to whom He was speaking would be held accountable for all the innocent blood shed on earth (including His). Matthew 23
2. Jesus said that while His disciples would face "tribulation" for believing in His name, this would be a sign of a "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem. Matthew 24
3. Jesus said what that "great tribulation" would look like. Luke 19, 21
4. Jesus said His disciples and the "tribes of the land" would see Him coming on the clouds and mourn. Matthew 24, Revelation 1
5. Jesus told John to write these events were "soon" and "near" and that He was "coming quickly" and that Paul said His coming would be "like a thief in the night" but that His followers would not be caught "unawares." Rev. 1, 22, I Thess. 5
6. All of these things - especially His coming in judgment as vengeance for the Jews breaking His covenant with Him - happened in 70 AD, EXACTLY as He prophesied!

Those are the facts regardless of what either of us believes.

I don't have to rest on beliefs or the vain imaginings of false teachers to understand this stuff. It's all right there in the Word, if you'll take Him at it.



So if the 70 ad was that vengance and fullfillment of Zech 12 the audiance was the jews in Jerusalam at that time according to his pos.

 

[warfrog]

You've stretched a half truth to the breaking point. The command to cross the Jordan was written to the 'Body of Christ' as was the entire canon of scripture. Im surprised you chose such a silly place to hide.

Revelations is a prophecy Hitch from God.

You are stretching my words.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hitch]

A quote from stormcrow in post 319

You can believe anything you want. Personally, I believe the moon is made of green cheese and those who view it while full turn into 6' tall carnivorous pink bunnies.

In the meantime, I prefer not to let my "personal beliefs" cloud my judgment as to what the Word either does or does not say. I would rather deal in facts and the facts are these:

1. Jesus said that the generation to whom He was speaking would be held accountable for all the innocent blood shed on earth (including His). Matthew 23
2. Jesus said that while His disciples would face "tribulation" for believing in His name, this would be a sign of a "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem. Matthew 24
3. Jesus said what that "great tribulation" would look like. Luke 19, 21
4. Jesus said His disciples and the "tribes of the land" would see Him coming on the clouds and mourn. Matthew 24, Revelation 1
5. Jesus told John to write these events were "soon" and "near" and that He was "coming quickly" and that Paul said His coming would be "like a thief in the night" but that His followers would not be caught "unawares." Rev. 1, 22, I Thess. 5
6. All of these things - especially His coming in judgment as vengeance for the Jews breaking His covenant with Him - happened in 70 AD, EXACTLY as He prophesied!

Those are the facts regardless of what either of us believes.

I don't have to rest on beliefs or the vain imaginings of false teachers to understand this stuff. It's all right there in the Word, if you'll take Him at it.



So if the 70 ad was that vengance and fullfillment of Zech 12 the audiance was the jews in Jerusalam at that time according to his pos.

I dont see how this comment relates to this one;
Nothing unless you insist that the audiance it was meant for died in 70 ad, as stormcrows position is.??

 

[Hitch]

Revelations is a prophecy Hitch from God.

You are stretching my words.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You tell me you are the original audience of John's letter to the Seven churches in Asia, and then accuse me of stretching your words.

But then lots of folks can see things in the Book of Revelations that I miss.

 

[warfrog]

You tell me you are the original audience of John's letter to the Seven churches in Asia, and then accuse me of stretching your words.

But then lots of folks can see things in the Book of Revelations that I miss.

You are stretching my words.
I told you i am the original audience of Revelations, and i am the audience of the letters, the letters are warnings to the church, i am a part of the church.
The church is not a building, the church are those called in His name, they are His, the church is the body and Jesus the Christ, my Lord and Saviour is the Head of the body.
Therefore being a part of the body through Him i am the original audience.

Revelations, the vision John is given when he is caught up in spirit, is a prophecy and it is a prophecy written to the body, the church of Jesus Christ.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Sam21]

An OT prophecy that is explained in the NT has been vertified as to the meaning of it by the NT. What we have in this forum are people who are claiming to know exactly what certain OT prophecies mean when there is no NT confirmation, so it boils down to their opinion, and that can be right or wrong, but without NT confirmation it is not something that a sensible person would accept as anything more than opinion. So all this supposed knowledge of what has taken place in the first century because of something found in the OT is simply an opinion.

 

[warfrog]

An OT prophecy that is explained in the NT has been vertified as to the meaning of it by the NT. What we have in this forum are people who are claiming to know exactly what certain OT prophecies mean when there is no NT confirmation, so it boils down to their opinion, and that can be right or wrong, but without NT confirmation it is not something that a sensible person would accept as anything more than opinion. So all this supposed knowledge of what has taken place in the first century because of something found in the OT is simply an opinion.

What O.T prophecy discussed hasnt been explained by the N.T?

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus.