The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[jasoncran]

You are mistaken.




Yes, it is not salvific, but Preterism's beliefs interrupt the unfolding plan of God so precipitously, that the message of redemption, and overcoming and victory in Christ is pretty much overlooked.



That makes no sense to me. There is one appointed time for the Bridegroom to go get His Bride (living and dead saints). Either you believe it or you don't.

the mid trib idea says that the saints are removed when the ac either enters the temple of the jews and claims god or when the wrath of God is poured.

now then how do reconcile the fact that saints are 'born" in the trib and somehow die for their faith and yet we in the church age dont have to go through that? somehow grace isnt what saves them, odd all through out the book of revalation theres signs of mercy and grace and men given space to repent. isnt that the definition of grace? i think so.

 

[reba]

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Psa 71:18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



These 4 verses use the phrase 'this generation' all are very obvious to the generation being spoken why in God's name do folks think/believe it is not the same in Mat 24:34 And the verses on the same topic..

Mar 13:30

Luk 11:51

ETC

 

[reba]

Where is the passage that tells us there is an antichrist in Thee temple... it aint

 

[Alabaster]

the mid trib idea says that the saints are removed when the ac either enters the temple of the jews and claims god or when the wrath of God is poured.

Yes, they do believe that. It doesn't bother me.

now then how do reconcile the fact that saints are 'born" in the trib and somehow die for their faith and yet we in the church age dont have to go through that? somehow grace isnt what saves them, odd all through out the book of revalation theres signs of mercy and grace and men given space to repent. isnt that the definition of grace? i think so.

The Bride doesn't go through what Tribulation Age saints go through by virtue of the fact they received Jesus as Saviour while the time was 'still today'.

Hebrews 3:13 NLT
You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,†so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.


What do you mean that Grace doesn't save these latecomers? It sure does!

 

[warhorse]

the mid trib idea says that the saints are removed when the ac either enters the temple of the jews and claims god or when the wrath of God is poured.

now then how do reconcile the fact that saints are 'born" in the trib and somehow die for their faith and yet we in the church age dont have to go through that? somehow grace isnt what saves them, odd all through out the book of revalation theres signs of mercy and grace and men given space to repent. isnt that the definition of grace? i think so.

When dispy was first introduced the concept was that salvation to each dispy came by differant means, Animal sacrifice to the Jews because of the law, grace to the church during the age of grace, and rejection of the mark during the trib. And thus each dispy recieved differant awards, earthy kingdom to jews, heavenly kingdom to the church, and rulers of the kingdom to the end time marters. As the church became more aware of the truth they moved away from teaching these tenents, but kept the dispy concept without teaching what it meant. todays dispy followers dont even know what it is founded on. Once the truth of dispy is revealed, the pre-trib is abandoned shortly therafter.

 

[jasoncran]

When dispy was first introduced the concept was that salvation to each dispy came by differant means, Animal sacrifice to the Jews because of the law, grace to the church during the age of grace, and rejection of the mark during the trib. And thus each dispy recieved differant awards, earthy kingdom to jews, heavenly kingdom to the church, and rulers of the kingdom to the end time marters. As the church became more aware of the truth they moved away from teaching these tenents, but kept the dispy concept without teaching what it meant. todays dispy followers dont even know what it is founded on. Once the truth of dispy is revealed, the pre-trib is abandoned shortly therafter.

well that explains the weird posts to me on isreal if its is in prophecy must have animal sacrifice.the assumption that the pre-tribber believes that. which i have never met one of those. i do see and still see the idea that the modern isreal has an end time purpose and we agreed on that one. millenism has nothing to do with the dspy doctrine.

 

[warhorse]

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Psa 71:18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



These 4 verses use the phrase 'this generation' all are very obvious to the generation being spoken why in God's name do folks think/believe it is not the same in Mat 24:34 And the verses on the same topic..

Mar 13:30

Luk 11:51

ETC

Lets put this one back in context shall we Math 24v32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
You see context matters Jesus never declares that the Generation he is speaking to will see the end, he states that it is the generation that is like the fig tree.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, they do believe that. It doesn't bother me.



The Bride doesn't go through what Tribulation Age saints go through by virtue of the fact they received Jesus as Saviour while the time was 'still today'.

Hebrews 3:13 NLT
You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,†so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.


What do you mean that Grace doesn't save these latecomers? It sure does!

ok most pre-tribbers and my pastor has said that the age of grace ends when the rapture occurs, he is correct for when the saints are removed from the wrath of God theres no more men that do repent. that is clearly said in revalation as after some chapters in revalation theres no more mentioning of repentance.

heres another problem for your position, the saints in the trib arent in the 'church" the 144k arent believers and also what about the gentiles in heaven. dont they all have the same reward?

the hebrews that repent must come to the lord same way we do. theres no other way. jesus said that clearly by my last siggy. ye shall not see me agian till ye say barbuchba beshem adonai.

think about it.

 

[warhorse]

LOL! No it doesn't.

Check your facts maam, the pre-trib position expects one return (rapture) for the church on the day of christ, and one return for the tribulational saints raptured on the day of the lord. And they dont even explain why they are saved by grace but miss the wedding.

 

[Lehigh3]

The understanding of the Holy Spirit in us teaches us immediately that Preterism is to be discounted. The sad thing is that many believers don't pay Him any heed. What seems logical to their minds is more acceptable than the voice of the Holy Spirit, who says to get the message of hope and life about Jesus Christ out to the whole world because Jesus is coming soon, and do NOT listen to those who cry He has already come.

Imagine that! In the preterist's favourite Bible passage, there's a warning about them:

Matthew 24:23 NLT
“Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.

Thank you, Lord!


Revelation 1:7 NLT
Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven.
And everyone will see him—
even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world
will mourn for him.
Yes! Amen!

I don't 'see' Him! He ain't here, folks!

No, you do misunderstand. "The Holy Spirit leads you to all truth" meaning where to find it. And that comes from wisdom, Godly wisdom.

Next, why didn't you complete the whole thought Jesus was telling His disciples in Matt.24:23? Maybe others will see His truth in the complete passage:
Matt.24:23-28,
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

And we do know that the Romans had "eagle" emblems. And also the randomness of those Jews during the siege that were "taken."

And Rev.1:7. Oh brother is that NLT off!
Rev.1:7 NKJV,
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
The language there is prophetic & is not intended to be taken literally. "Clouds" speak of of the heavens & the majesty & power of God- they also speak of a time of storm & darkness settling over the land. The prophet Nahum used similar terms to describe the overthrow of Nineveh when he said, "the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet." (Nahum 1:3)
Examples of this sort of poetic device by the prophets to portray times of national judgment are prominent in the scriptures. - Ezek30:2-4; 39:16; Isa. 19:1; Jer.4:13) Jesus himself utilized such language while on trial before Caiaphas to describe his coming in judgment against the nation by the sword of Rome. (Mk.14:62;Matt.24:24-30; Mk 13:24-30) John the Baptist had warned that the axe was already laid to the root of the national tree. That was the day of wrath Jesus referred to during his trial before Caiaphas. It is the same coming of Christ that John the apostle writes of in the verse above (Rev.1:7)

"Every eye shall see Him" does not refer to the physical eyes but to the eyes of the understanding- Caiaphas & the whole nation of the Jews would see & perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory, the sign that the Son of man was seated at the right hand of power in heaven. (Matt.24:30) That is the meaning "they also which pierced him." The Holy Spirit adapts the language of Zechariah here to refer to the day of vengeance upon the nation of those that pierced the Lord. (the Jews aided & abetted the crucifixion of Christ).
"The tribes of the earth" here refer to the families & tribes of Israel & is better translated as "tribes of the land."

 

[Alabaster]

Check your facts maam, the pre-trib position expects one return (rapture) for the church on the day of christ, and one return for the tribulational saints raptured on the day of the lord. And they dont even explain why they are saved by grace but miss the wedding.

Check your own facts. The pre-trib rapture is not the second coming of Christ.


Grace covers all who have faith. The wedding feast logistics are God's domain, not ours.

 

[Alabaster]

No, you do misunderstand. "The Holy Spirit leads you to all truth" meaning where to find it. And that comes from wisdom, Godly wisdom.

Which is from the Word of God and obedience to Him.

And Rev.1:7. Oh brother is that NLT off!

No it isn't.

Rev.1:7 NKJV,
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
The language there is prophetic & is not intended to be taken literally.

Sez you. Spiritualizing and allegorizing everything is where one goes off the rails.

"Every eye shall see Him" does not refer to the physical eyes but to the eyes of the understanding- Caiaphas & the whole nation of the Jews would see & perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory, the sign that the Son of man was seated at the right hand of power in heaven. (Matt.24:30) That is the meaning "they also which pierced him." The Holy Spirit adapts the language of Zechariah here to refer to the day of vengeance upon the nation of those that pierced the Lord. (the Jews aided & abetted the crucifixion of Christ).
"The tribes of the earth" here refer to the families & tribes of Israel & is better translated as "tribes of the land."

Every physical eye that can see will see Him.

 

[Alabaster]

ok most pre-tribbers and my pastor has said that the age of grace ends when the rapture occurs, he is correct for when the saints are removed from the wrath of God theres no more men that do repent. that is clearly said in revalation as after some chapters in revalation theres no more mentioning of repentance.

There is not much repentance in the world when the wrath is poured out. However there will be many redeemed from among men in the Tribulation.

Revelation 7:14 NKJV
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.â€
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

heres another problem for your position, the saints in the trib arent in the 'church" the 144k arent believers and also what about the gentiles in heaven. dont they all have the same reward?

The 144,000 aren't believers? Do you just make this stuff up? What about Gentiles in heaven?

the hebrews that repent must come to the lord same way we do. theres no other way. jesus said that clearly by my last siggy. ye shall not see me agian till ye say barbuchba beshem adonai.

think about it.

Thinking...yes. You appear confused.

 

[jasoncran]

There is not much repentance in the world when the wrath is poured out. However there will be many redeemed from among men in the Tribulation.

Revelation 7:14 NKJV
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.â€
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



The 144,000 aren't believers? Do you just make this stuff up? What about Gentiles in heaven?



Thinking...yes. You appear confused.

so that occurs in the tribulation right? the 144k jews arent here now are they nor is the trib saints so .

you said this

The Bride doesn't go through what Tribulation Age saints go through by virtue of the fact they received Jesus as Saviour while the time was 'still today'.

ok so if my grandson isnt save the raptures occurs and the his son comes to christ on that next day. and he read his bible and then came to christ he cant come to the lord? how? so let me guess theres no holy spirit on the earth drawing men? no bibles? sure theres signs but we cant rule out the bible must be around and men teaching it. how will the trib saints now. i dont see any angel teaching men on the earth in fact how will the 144k hear the word?

so the bride is only the pre trib saints , dont you see the big problem with that.

 

[Alabaster]

so that occurs in the tribulation right? the 144k jews arent here now are they nor is the trib saints so .

you said this

The Bride doesn't go through what Tribulation Age saints go through by virtue of the fact they received Jesus as Saviour while the time was 'still today'.

ok so if my grandson isnt save the raptures occurs and the his son comes to christ on that next day. and he read his bible and then came to christ he cant come to the lord? how? so let me guess theres no holy spirit on the earth drawing men? no bibles? sure theres signs but we cant rule out the bible must be around and men teaching it. how will the trib saints now. i dont see any angel teaching men on the earth in fact how will the 144k hear the word?

so the bride is only the pre trib saints , dont you see the big problem with that.

Nope. No one says that people won't be saved in the Tribulation. It will be VERY difficult, however. If a person rejects Jesus now while the opportunity is optimal, why would a person suddenly want Him when the pressure is on full force to repel Him?

 

[warhorse]

Check your own facts. The pre-trib rapture is not the second coming of Christ.


Grace covers all who have faith. The wedding feast logistics are God's domain, not ours.

Maam thats just downrite silly. Then you will need to take that up with paul the apostle. Who clearly states here that the timing of the rapture event is on the day of the lord.

1 thess 4v16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 thess 5v1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[jasoncran]

Nope. No one says that people won't be saved in the Tribulation. It will be VERY difficult, however. If a person rejects Jesus now while the opportunity is optimal, why would a person suddenly want Him when the pressure is on full force to repel Him?

how do you know that? when the christians were persecuted in the past and the present the church grows.

and you didnt answer that really well the list of the tribulation saints is such that no man can number

revalation 7:9, it doesnt seem that hard to God.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

hmm so the holy spirit doesnt save men and isnt active in this period? no man could number, that must be large number then.

 

[Alabaster]

Maam thats just downrite silly. Then you will need to take that up with paul the apostle. Who clearly states here that the timing of the rapture event is on the day of the lord.

1 thess 4v16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 thess 5v1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What's silly about it? The Rapture is not the Lord's glorious and terrible Second Coming, for when He comes to set foot upon that Mount of Olives, He will be bringing every saint with Him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NLT
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Zechariah 14:3-9 NLT
3 Then the Lord will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5 You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.
8 On that day life-giving waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half toward the Dead Sea and half toward the Mediterranean flowing continuously in both summer and winter.
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one Lord—his name alone will be worshiped.

 

[warhorse]

What's silly about it? The Rapture is not the Lord's glorious and terrible Second Coming, for when He comes to set foot upon that Mount of Olives, He will be bringing every saint with Him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NLT
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Yes it is,he brings the spirits of those who have died in christ, back with him to join them to there ressurected bodies, and establish his kingdom here on earth. thats why they come from one end of heaven to the other of earth.
Mark 13v26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

2 thess 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So our rest comes when christ comes in vengance.

 

[Alabaster]

Yes it is,he brings the spirits of those who have died in christ, back with him to join them to there ressurected bodies, and establish his kingdom here on earth. thats why they com from one end of heaven to the other of earth.
Mark 13v26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

That is one interpretation.

However, many scholars, and I agree with them, say that the elect spoken of here is Israel who has received Jesus Christ their Messiah during the Tribulation, along with a good many Gentile believers who will have managed to survive the tumult.