The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[warhorse]

What's silly about it? The Rapture is not the Lord's glorious and terrible Second Coming, for when He comes to set foot upon that Mount of Olives, He will be bringing every saint with Him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NLT
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Zechariah 14:3-9 NLT
3 Then the Lord will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south. 5 You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.
8 On that day life-giving waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half toward the Dead Sea and half toward the Mediterranean flowing continuously in both summer and winter.
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one Lord—his name alone will be worshiped.

oohppsssy you forgot some of that context, you know the part that establishes his return on the day of the lord.
Zec 14v1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[warhorse]

That is one interpretation.

However, many scholars, and I agree with them, say that the elect spoken of here is Israel who has received Jesus Christ their Messiah during the Tribulation, along with a good many Gentile believers who will have managed to survive the tumult.

Ok lets look at this then. would you agree that when we are saved we are sealed unto the day of redemption, and that the rapture is the redemption of our physical bodies.

 

[reba]

Holy Spirit ASSURES me that Jesus NEVER said He would return in their lifetime. The problem preterists have is poor interpretive skills, which many of us could easily possess, but an intimate walk with Jesus Christ protects us from believing such false, man-made doctrine.

I am grateful to God for His preservation.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

[Alabaster]

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

That is not Jesus telling His hearers He is returning from Heaven. He is saying some there will see Him coming in His Kingdom. Reading on immediately from there you see three of His disciples are given a vision of Jesus TRANSFIGURED into His Kingdom likeness.

Not only that, but shortly thereafter, many of them saw Him literally ascend bodily to heaven---'coming into His Kingdom' literally.

 

[Alabaster]

oohppsssy you forgot some of that context, you know the part that establishes his return on the day of the lord.
Zec 14v1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Yep, the terrible Day of the Lord. I haven't missed the context.

 

[Alabaster]

Ok lets look at this then. would you agree that when we are saved we are sealed unto the day of redemption, and that the rapture is the redemption of our physical bodies.

The Rapture is certainly the moment when we receive our new glorified bodies.

 

[Sinthesis]

Wow! A thread on preterism and you're all arguing about your vision/version of the future end times.

I suppose one of the pros of partial preterism is that you have the backdrop of history as a framework for biblical interpretation rather than some seemingly desirable yet nebulous vision of interpreted scripture which always appears to remain in the future. Thus the partial preterist's motivation becomes 'How can one interpret prophesy in a way in which God has glorified Himself by bringing to pass that which He said He would do' instead of pushing everything off into the future because nothing seems as you've imagined. Of course not all prophesy has been fulfilled, but most everything has at least been started. There are enough parallels throughout history at differing scales both before and after Christ to take a bunch of the anxiety and judgmental narcissism out of Christian eschatology if you know what you are looking at. Big plus.

 

[warhorse]

The Rapture is certainly the moment when we receive our new glorified bodies.

luke 21v27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[warhorse]

Wow! A thread on preterism and you're all arguing about your vision/version of the future end times.

I suppose one of the pros of partial preterism is that you have the backdrop of history as a framework for biblical interpretation rather than some seemingly desirable yet nebulous vision of interpreted scripture which always appears to remain in the future. Thus the partial preterist's motivation becomes 'How can one interpret prophesy in a way in which God has glorified Himself by bringing to pass that which He said He would do' instead of pushing everything off into the future because nothing seems as you've imagined. Of course not all prophesy has been fulfilled, but most everything has at least been started. There are enough parallels throughout history at differing scales both before and after Christ to take a bunch of the anxiety and judgmental narcissism out of Christian eschatology if you know what you are looking at. Big plus.

My Bad, the preterist seem to playing elswere. BACK ON TOPIC!!!

 

[warhorse]

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And was fullfilled by John on the isle of patmos see rev 1

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The statements below make it seem as if Jesus taught that he would return a second time in the first century and that his disciples also believed He would return again in their own generation.

Jesus Words:
you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes. (Mt.10:23)
there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Mt.16:27,28)
you shall see the heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (Jn.1:51)
hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt.26:64)


Other Witnesses:
...you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Cor.1:7,8)
...Children, it is the last hour...from this we know that it is the last hour. (1Jn.2:18)
...for the time is near. (Rv.1:3)
I charge you ... that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ ... (1Tim.6:13,14)
...Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (James 5:7)
...And don’t stop meeting together (as some have made it their custom), but [continue to] encourage each other… and [do this] even more so as you see the Day getting closer. (Heb 10:25)

 

[Lehigh3]

Totally agree Truthovertradition!

encourage each other… and [do this] even more so as you see the Day getting closer. (Heb 10:25)

And you know there are much more proofs. If ppl just used "audience relevance" as a gauge, so much would be clearer.

What possible reason why would the writer of Hebrews here, for instance, tell his audience to "encourage each other" for if it had absolutely no meaning to THEM?

You can also put emphasis on most "yous" as in "as YOU see the Day approaching.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds (tribes) of the earth (land) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This verse as well as others like it make the claims of some preterists that Jesus' coming was an invisible or spiritual coming seem a weak as the claims of dispensationalists who await future fulfillment. All the evidence in scripture (from Acts 1 to this passage in Rev.) tells us that Jesus was to reurn LITERALLY AND VISIBLY within the lifetime of those he was contemporary with.

It seems that for whatever reasons the futurists bury their heads in the sand while the preterists (especially full preterists) continue to stumble over the above verse as well as texts like matthew 24:29-31.

We as believers need to stop hiding behind dogma and simply accept the scriptures as they are written and let the chips fall where they may. The facts are that had we been alive during the mid 1st century hearing what the saints heard, we as they did would have fully expected Jesus return to be within our lifetimes and we would have expected to SEE the specticle of it with our very eyes as the eyes of other who didn't believe did the same.

I believe the problem both futurists and preterists have with wholly accepting the scriptures for what they say is the "where does that leave me and my church dilemma." If Jesus did in fact return not only in judgment but also to raise the dead saints as a firstfruit resurrection at his coming as scriptures seems to indicate (1 Cor 15), what does that mean for us who have been born into and left in this worl of sin and death? What exactly is our hope?

 

[Stormcrow]

If Jesus did in fact return not only in judgment but also to raise the dead saints as a firstfruit resurrection at his coming as scriptures seems to indicate (1 Cor 15), what does that mean for us who have been born into and left in this worl of sin and death? What exactly is our hope?

At one time, I couldn't fathom the idea that Christ wouldn't take His Body out of the world when things got bad. Then Nero came.

Then Domitian. And Trajan. And Marcus Aurelius. And Severus. And Maximus. And Decius. And Valerian. And Aurelian. And Diocletian.

And those were just the first 250 years or so.

And when He didn't return for the church during the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, WWI, WWII (nukes anyone?) with all the evil that was unleashed on the world then, I have come to conclude we're here because this is where the Body of Christ is needed.

As long as there is one more soul that can be brought into heaven's fold before the whole thing comes crashing down, the church is exactly where God wants us. If it ever is His will to take us out of this world, we won't know it until it happens. In the meantime, we should focus on trying to change and save the world we're in as long as we're here: that's what Christ would do.

We are part of God's redeeming plan now. Time for the church to stop looking for rescue and start being the rescuers.

IMHO.

 

[hisbeloved]

Promoting lies brings eternal consequences. There is no lie in Heaven.

plus the scripture says believe a lie and be damned, so there is a lie that damns and therefore has eternal consequences.

 

[hisbeloved]

And was fullfilled by John on the isle of patmos see rev 1

what part of this was fullfilled?,cause as far as I know no one
has been rewarded yet.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

At one time, I couldn't fathom the idea that Christ wouldn't take His Body out of the world when things got bad. Then Nero came.

Then Domitian. And Trajan. And Marcus Aurelius. And Severus. And Maximus. And Decius. And Valerian. And Aurelian. And Diocletian.

And those were just the first 250 years or so.

And when He didn't return for the church during the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, WWI, WWII (nukes anyone?) with all the evil that was unleashed on the world then, I have come to conclude we're here because this is where the Body of Christ is needed.

As long as there is one more soul that can be brought into heaven's fold before the whole thing comes crashing down, the church is exactly where God wants us. If it ever is His will to take us out of this world, we won't know it until it happens. In the meantime, we should focus on trying to change and save the world we're in as long as we're here: that's what Christ would do.

We are part of God's redeeming plan now. Time for the church to stop looking for rescue and start being the rescuers.

IMHO.

At this point, I believe that Jesus did in fact take his elect out of the world, and I believe that that was done in the 1st century. As for the church that strung with shortly thereafter, I believe they are not what they claim to be (Jesus' Bride, Jesus' Ekklesia of Matt 16:18, a continuation of what was established at Pentecost, etc.). Does that mean that churches are bad? The answer to that question will vary based on what the institutions do and claim. If they claim that they are the necessary gateway to the Christ and life, then they are liars or at best blind leaders, but if they simply provide a way for believers to organize and come together to do good in the world, build each other up, and encourage one another in ways of righteousness, then the MANMADE organization that we know as church would then be doing good.

None of that addresses the issue I posed at the end of my last post about where that leaves us if in fact Jesus "raptured" his saints in the 1st century at his parousia. First, I do not see us as being inhabitants of the new earth and skies as many preterists do. We are obviously still living in a world of sin and death (along with many good, wonderful, and positivr things that often get taken for granted and overlooked). Death and hell (the grave), have yet to be "thrown in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone (the 2nd death), and ALL THINGS have yet to be "made new" as the Bible says they at some point will be. In addition, many have lived and died since Jesus' advent and they because of what Jesus accomplished rest in hope of being resurrected on the "last day."

So what I am proposing is:
1. That there is a resurrection, a bodily one at that, that is to be a future occurance.
2. That Jesus reigns with his saints right now, but this world is not yet a part of the reign of the kingdom of Heaven.
3. This world will one day become a part of the Reign of the Kingdom.
4. Our hope as well as the hope of the ancients is to be resurrected to life under the reign of the Kingdom here on earth where we will live for endless ages with access to trees of life.
5. No one knows when the Kingdom will come to this Earth.

 

[Lehigh3]

T.O.T.,

Time is limited as I must help my husband get laundry & pack for his return trip downstate today, for his new job. I'll have to answer more thoroughly at another time.

But for starters, let's begin with the real "Lord's prayer." (the other is our prayer)

John 17 NKJV,
Jesus Prays for His Disciples


6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 78them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[b] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d]13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus Prays for All Believers


20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Stormcrow]

None of that addresses the issue I posed at the end of my last post about where that leaves us if in fact Jesus "raptured" his saints in the 1st century at his parousia.

I wasn't making a doctrinal statement, only suggesting that whatever God's plan is, we're part of it and need to keep at it whether He returns now or in a thousand years from now.

So what I am proposing is:
1. That there is a resurrection, a bodily one at that, that is to be a future occurance.
2. That Jesus reigns with his saints right now, but this world is not yet a part of the reign of the kingdom of Heaven.
3. This world will one day become a part of the Reign of the Kingdom.
4. Our hope as well as the hope of the ancients is to be resurrected to life under the reign of the Kingdom here on earth where we will live for endless ages with access to trees of life.
5. No one knows when the Kingdom will come to this Earth.

The church has been through much in 2,000 years. The "gates of hell" indeed have not prevailed against it. Beyond that, I believe whatever happens in the future the church will continue to prevail.

Peace. Out.

 

[reba]

I wasn't making a doctrinal statement, only suggesting that whatever God's plan is, we're part of it and need to keep at it whether He returns now or in a thousand years from now.