The RAPTURE . . . at the end of the Trib.

[gr8grace3]

For those who are alive and remain, present on earth until the Feast of Trumpets at the end of Daniel's 70th week. In that month, it is likely that the LORD will consecutively fulfill [in total, as they are now fulfilled in part] each of feasts of that month - begining w/ Trumpets on the 1st day, then the Atonement on the 10th day of that same month, then the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles beginning on the 15th day of that month.

Actually, I was asking where is the church specifically mentioned in the actual verses of Daniel 9:24-27.What specific words describe the church in the actual words of the passages?

I am not sure what you are asking, but did I answer it above?


Somewhere between the opening of the 6th seal (Rev 6:12) and just before the seventh seal is opened (prior to Rev 8:1). In Rev 6:14, John mentions seeing the sky depart as a scroll when it is rolled up; and I believe that verse indicates at least two things:

1. I think that the [mention of the] scroll being rolled up is an indication that the testimony of the two witness is complete, having fully preached the content of that metaphoric scroll, that which was given to them in Rev 11:3.

2. I think that the mention of the sky departing is a clearing out of Satan and his demons from that domain, cast to the earth; this in preparation of the place where the saints will meet the LORD in the air, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Th 4:17 KJV).

I would add that Rev 6:14 (along with Rev 6:13 )is a narrative explaining events mentioned in Rev 6:12, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, [here] lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;" (Rev 6:12 KJV). I think that the LORD's appearing to gather the Church, the Rapture on the first day of that 7th month, occurs in Rev 6:12 where I added this - [here] - between 'and' and 'lo.'

So the breaking of the 6th seal by the Lord Jesus Christ and the feast of trumpets occur at the exact same time?

 

[Gregg]

Actually, I was asking where is the church specifically mentioned in the actual verses of Daniel 9:24-27.What specific words describe the church in the actual words of the passages?

I am not sure. Do you know of any?

If the rapture occurs at the end of Daniel's 70th week, then the Church must be there prior to that.

What in Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of Christ's Second Coming?

So the breaking of the 6th seal by the Lord Jesus Christ and the feast of trumpets occur at the exact same time?

The Rapture occurs somewhere after the breaking of the 6th seal but just before the breaking of the 7th seal.

 

[gr8grace3]

I am not sure. Do you know of any?

If the rapture occurs at the end of Daniel's 70th week, then the Church must be there prior to that.

What in Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of Christ's Second Coming?

I am just trying to follow your line of reasoning. How can you put the church in Dan 9:24-27 using that scripture? You put the church in rev 10:7 using the "mystery of God," How does Daniel put the church in the verses in question?

The Rapture occurs somewhere after the breaking of the 6th seal but just before the breaking of the 7th seal.

You have stated that the rapture occurs before the breaking of the 7th seal, on the day of the feast of the trumpets, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, and when the Lord is swinging His sickle above the earth......These all happen at the very same moment?

 

[Adstar]

Several passages in the Revelation mention the Rapture of believers. My thoughts are that they indicate:
1. the presence of the Church on earth during the last 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week (Dan 9:24-27)
2. and that the Rapture occurs on the Feast of Trumpets, 10-15 days before the end of Daniel's 70th week.

- "And the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places" (Rev 6:14 LITV).

- "but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, whenever he is about to trumpet, was even ended the mystery of God, as He preached to His slaves, the prophets" (Rev 10:7 LITV).

- "And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on the ones beholding them. And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. And their enemies saw them" (Rev 11:11-12 LITV).

- "And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle onto the earth, and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16 LITV).

Yes the final trimpet is i believe the time of the rapture. The 7th trumpet of the Book of Revelation.

 

[Gregg]

I am just trying to follow your line of reasoning. How can you put the church in Dan 9:24-27 using that scripture? You put the church in rev 10:7 using the "mystery of God," How does Daniel put the church in the verses in question?

My reasoning is lacking as I do not fully understand the chronology of the end times. In the OP I mentioned the last 3-1/2 years Daniel's 70th week as being equivalent to the 3-1/2 years directly before Christ Returns. When I think about His return, I see it in two phases: first to gather the Church at the Feast of Trumpets; then secondly returning 10 days afterwards on the Day of Atonement to save a remnant of Israel and gentiles, and to exercise His wrath against His enemies.

I am not sure if Daniels 70th week [a seven year period] occurs in total at Christ's Second Coming, or if perhaps the first 3-1/2 years of that week of years occurred during Christ's public ministry. If the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles foretells of His Second Coming, and if that event culminates at the end of Daniel's 70th week, then that week of years would also begin on or near a Feast of Booths 7 years Prior. That week of years has a Passover 3-1/2 years into it, right in the middle of Daniel's 70th week.

Christ's First Coming culminated around The Passover; then perhaps His public ministry began 3-1/2 years prior on or near a Feast of Booths - perhaps fulfilling in part His tabernacling among us in the flesh (Jn 1:14)?

I suspect that Christ will fulfill in total the Feast of Tabernacles on the 15th day of the same month as the Rapture, when He sets foot in Jerusalem and takes His seat on the Temple Mt.
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You have stated that the rapture occurs before the breaking of the 7th seal, on the day of the feast of the trumpets, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, and when the Lord is swinging His sickle above the earth......These all happen at the very same moment?

Yes. But perhaps also at the breaking of the seventh seal? I am not sure, and if I stated otherwise then my own confusion is on the table.

 

[gr8grace3]

I am not sure if Daniels 70th week [a seven year period] occurs in total at Christ's Second Coming, or if perhaps the first 3-1/2 years of that week of years occurred during Christ's public ministry.

Wouldn't 2 Thess 2:1-2 clear that up?
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
​

 

[Gregg]

Wouldn't 2 Thess 2:1-2 clear that up?
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
​

Thank you if that was meant to encourage me. I am convinced beyond a doubt that His day is coming, and I wait eagerly for Him!

I have a head injury that effects my memory, also my ability to organize lists and see things chronologically. Studying the Revelation presents an extraordinary challenge to me in that there are so many interludes in the text [some which look forward and some which explain previous verses], the chapters themselves [and portions within] are not all chronological, and much of it overlaps; this and not to mention so many symbols and metaphors. These things are more of a physical limitation to me than a spiritual limitation; although my understanding of the Scripture is challenged daily, even hourly.

What are your thoughts on the timing of Christ opening the seals, and the seven trumpets, and the Rapture?

 

[gr8grace3]

If the rapture occurs at the end of Daniel's 70th week, then the Church must be there prior to that.

REV 13:1-9, “And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?’ And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty‑two months[three and one half years] was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in Heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain. if anyone has an ear, let him hear.”...........Why is the "church" missing? Rev 2:7,Rev 2:17,Rev 2:29,Rev 3:6,Rev 3:13,Rev 3:22~~~He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

For 3 1/2 years satan will overcome the church,and have authority over the church? Christ is not head for 3 1/2 years?

 

[gr8grace3]

Thank you if that was meant to encourage me. I am convinced beyond a doubt that His day is coming, and I wait eagerly for Him!

I have a head injury that effects my memory, also my ability to organize lists and see things chronologically. Studying the Revelation presents an extraordinary challenge to me in that there are so many interludes in the text [some which look forward and some which explain previous verses], the chapters themselves [and portions within] are not all chronological, and much of it overlaps; this and not to mention so many symbols and metaphors. These things are more of a physical limitation to me than a spiritual limitation; although my understanding of the Scripture is challenged daily, even hourly.

What are your thoughts on the timing of Christ opening the seals, and the seven trumpets, and the Rapture?

Gregg, I have the utmost respect for you. And I am always coming from the frame of mind," I want the truth, I do not want to be deceived." I always want to encourage, but am limited by a stupid sin nature. I am Pre-trib. And have not seen a lay out of post trib quite like yours. I find it interesting and just want to see if my doctrine stands strong or if I need to look at it from a different perspective.

Sorry about your injury, you fooled me, you seem to gather and put information on this forum in a very well defined manner.

 

[Gregg]

REV 13:1-9, “And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?’ And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty‑two months[three and one half years] was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in Heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain. if anyone has an ear, let him hear.”...........Why is the "church" missing? Rev 2:7,Rev 2:17,Rev 2:29,Rev 3:6,Rev 3:13,Rev 3:22~~~He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

For 3 1/2 years satan will overcome the church,and have authority over the church? Christ is not head for 3 1/2 years?

Christ is most definitely Head of the Church, and the Sovereign over all rule and authority - in heaven and here. Satan may overcome the Church physically, our bodies or in the flesh, and many martyrs will join those who already are; but Satan can not overcome the Church spiritually so as to influence our eternal salvation.

The unsaved "dwell on the earth" and are citizens of the kingdom of the world; the saints dwell in the Kingdom of God, but many will continue living here on earth until the LORD returns.

You mentioned the "church" missing, but I am persuaded that the seven letters are addressed to the elect, the saints and those who will be saved.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg, I have the utmost respect for you. And I am always coming from the frame of mind," I want the truth, I do not want to be deceived." I always want to encourage, but am limited by a stupid sin nature. I am Pre-trib. And have not seen a lay out of post trib quite like yours. I find it interesting and just want to see if my doctrine stands strong or if I need to look at it from a different perspective.

Sorry about your injury, you fooled me, you seem to gather and put information on this forum in a very well defined manner.

Thank you, but it comes with much difficulty. I want the truth also, and will stand corrected where my understanding falls short; if not here, then before Christ on that Day.

I was pre-trib. until about 10 years ago, and so I understand the nature and reasoning behind your questions.

 

[gr8grace3]

An account of the Rapture is given from several different perspectives. I understand that the two witnesses of Rev 11 are believers, who die 3-1/2 days before a Feast of Trumpets; to be resurrected on the day of the Feast of Trumpets.

Remember, I just want to get this straight and follow what you are saying. I assume you mean Rev 11:12 for the 2 witnesses. Is this a separate rapture just for the 2 witnesses?

 

[gr8grace3]

I would be interested in the several passages in Revelation that mention the rapture of believers. The ones you did quote aren't about believers from the church age.

I do believe that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the Trib, based on a comparison of Matt 24:30-31, 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:13-18. They all describe the same event. Of particular interest is 1 Cor 15 and the phrase "at the last trump". Since there will be 7 trumpet judgments during the Trib, it seems that what Paul wrote will occur after that.

Furthermore, 2 Thess 2:1 begins with: "1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him", which occurs after the "rebellion" of v.3: "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".

Seems clear: The coming of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him will occur after the apostasy (Trib) comes first.

My puny brain can't get around a couple of things here. Help me out,please.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians about in the middle of the first century and used "the last trump". John wrote the revelation at the end of the first century and wrote of the seven trumpet judgement's. Did the Cor.&Thess. have the knowledge of the seven trumpets and going through the first six, and the 2 woes of the 5th and 6th trumpet with Pauls writings? If they did understand this and they knew they were going to go through these judgement's, why were they worried that their dead loved ones missed it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
How can any of you know when that will be?
Also, we are told not to look into the future for answers, because we only have today.

 

[Gregg]

Remember, I just want to get this straight and follow what you are saying. I assume you mean Rev 11:12 for the 2 witnesses. Is this a separate rapture just for the 2 witnesses?

I understand the two witnesses to be 2 individual men who have a specific ministry during the Tribulation; and also that their offices as priests and kings and prophets are representative of the Church at large.

 

[Gregg]

The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
How can any of you know when that will be?
Also, we are told not to look into the future for answers, because we only have today.

I for one am looking to the LORD for answers. He speaks a great deal about that Day and events leading up to it. I want to know about His plans for the Church during that time. And that Day to us will not be as a thief coming at night, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief." (1Th 5:4 LITV).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I for one am looking to the LORD for answers. He speaks a great deal about that Day and events leading up to it. I want to know about His plans for the Church during that time. And that Day to us will not be as a thief coming at night, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief." (1Th 5:4 LITV).

How do you think the Lord will give you answers about this?
A dream, a vision, a revelation, a voice, from another person?
Why should he give you these answers?
What would the purpose be?

 

[gr8grace3]

I understand the two witnesses to be 2 individual men who have a specific ministry during the Tribulation; and also that their offices as priests and kings and prophets are representative of the Church at large.

Heres a thought then:

If one stands on the Idea that the "last trump" of Corinthians is the 7th trumpet of the revelation(I don't). Paul says the trump will sound and the dead shall be raised. In Rev 11:12 the 7th trump has not been sounded yet. And we even have the 5th,6th and 7th trumpet as the 3 woes. In Rev 11:14 we clearly see that the 2nd woe is complete and the 3rd has not started yet(the 7th trumpet). So if Rev 11:12 is the rapture of the Church and the "Last trump" is the the 7th trumpet, we have Paul saying the last trump is before the rapture and we have John saying the rapture happens before the 7th trumpet.

How is this reconciled?

Thank you Gregg, this has made me re-enter the rapture doctrine,I have not studied it for a while.

 

[gr8grace3]

I for one am looking to the LORD for answers. He speaks a great deal about that Day and events leading up to it. I want to know about His plans for the Church during that time. And that Day to us will not be as a thief coming at night, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief." (1Th 5:4 LITV).

Another thought on this. The trib is a thing that the earth has not seen nor will ever see again. A major,awful event, to say the least. Where are our(the churches) instructions for what to do? Our great commission is to reveal the Gospel to people........why the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses? Where is the church and what is her role in this? I would think God would have given us a few epistles about it.For this is no small matter.

 

[gr8grace3]

I have leanings towards that the "last trump" is the NAME of the trump of God......the last Adam.