The RAPTURE . . . at the end of the Trib.

[Gregg]

How do you think the Lord will give you answers about this?
A dream, a vision, a revelation, a voice, from another person?
Why should he give you these answers?
What would the purpose be?

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him" (Eph 1:17 LITV). You ask why the LORD should give these answers to me. I would say that He has initiated the conversation with me.

Are you offended in any way?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him" (Eph 1:17 LITV). You ask why the LORD should give these answers to me. I would say that He has initiated the conversation with me.

Are you offended in any way?

No, not at all.
I'm curious, that's all.

 

[FreeGrace]

My puny brain can't get around a couple of things here. Help me out,please.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians about in the middle of the first century and used "the last trump". John wrote the revelation at the end of the first century and wrote of the seven trumpet judgement's. Did the Cor.&Thess. have the knowledge of the seven trumpets and going through the first six, and the 2 woes of the 5th and 6th trumpet with Pauls writings? If they did understand this and they knew they were going to go through these judgement's, why were they worried that their dead loved ones missed it?

Not sure I see any difficulty here. Paul mentioned "at the last trumpet". I don't necessarily take that as the "7th trumpet" IN Revelation. I think it could be after the 7th, which is part of the wrath. I think Christ returns after all the wrath has been poured out.

I know you're pre-trib, which I was for all my life, until a friend challenged me on it. I simply cannot find any evidence of a rapture before Christ returns at the end of the Trib. I know all the arguments, and I drive my brother crazy on this, but the arguments are more about what some think logically must occur. I'm looking for evidence of when the rapture occurs. And the only time frame that makes sense is when Christ returns at the end of the Trib.

I think 2 Thess 2 is very convincing about when the rapture will occur.
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Here in v.1 we see a reference to the Second Coming, and "our being gathered to Him", which I take as the rapture.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way for that day (2nd Coming) will NOT come, until the rebellion (Trib) occurs and the man of lawnessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I believe v.3 clearly states that the Second Coming, and the rapture do not occur until the Trib and the antichrist is revealed. That would mean that the rapture occurs after the Trib.

Hope this helps.

 

[FreeGrace]

Another thought on this. The trib is a thing that the earth has not seen nor will ever see again. A major,awful event, to say the least. Where are our(the churches) instructions for what to do? Our great commission is to reveal the Gospel to people........why the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses? Where is the church and what is her role in this? I would think God would have given us a few epistles about it.For this is no small matter.

Good questions! I believe the 2 witnesses are OT prophets who are specifically sent to Israel, which is where they minister. The 144,000 are obviously Jews who will minister to Jews.

 

[gr8grace3]

Not sure I see any difficulty here. Paul mentioned "at the last trumpet". I don't necessarily take that as the "7th trumpet" IN Revelation. I think it could be after the 7th, which is part of the wrath. I think Christ returns after all the wrath has been poured out.

I know you're pre-trib, which I was for all my life, until a friend challenged me on it. I simply cannot find any evidence of a rapture before Christ returns at the end of the Trib. I know all the arguments, and I drive my brother crazy on this, but the arguments are more about what some think logically must occur. I'm looking for evidence of when the rapture occurs. And the only time frame that makes sense is when Christ returns at the end of the Trib.

I think 2 Thess 2 is very convincing about when the rapture will occur.
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Here in v.1 we see a reference to the Second Coming, and "our being gathered to Him", which I take as the rapture.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way for that day (2nd Coming) will NOT come, until the rebellion (Trib) occurs and the man of lawnessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I believe v.3 clearly states that the Second Coming, and the rapture do not occur until the Trib and the antichrist is revealed. That would mean that the rapture occurs after the Trib.

Hope this helps.

I read those verses and think they are very convincing of a pre trib rapture. I will try to lay it out as how I read them.

1. I believe that there are 2 distinct comings of the Lord. The rapture and the second advent. The rapture, He does not step foot on the Ground and the 2nd advent He comes to reign. Do you see it like this?
2. In vs 1 "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is the rapture, when He comes in the air. 1 Thess 4:17

3. In vs 2 "the day of the lord" refers to the 2nd advent,when He comes to the earth. And THAT day does not come until after the trib and man of lawlessness is revealed.

We get a clue from the forged letter that Paul was addressing. this letter was most likely from the Jews and they did not believe in the rapture but they sure wanted their King to come. The forged letter to the Thessalonians was a false teaching that the day of the lord had come and they were worried they missed the Rapture. Paul had to address that the trib comes before the "day of the lord" because the Forged letter said that the "day of the Lord" was at hand.

They were worried that they missed the rapture because the forged letter(had no rapture in it) said that the day of the Lord had come.

So the forged letter in vs 2 was missing the rapture but taught the "Day of the Lord" had come. (And they were still here!) The Jews fully believed in the day of the Lord,but not the rapture. So Pauls main point was to address that the "day of the Lord" had not come. And He lays out the criteria for the Day of the Lord, the rapture was naturally before the "day of the Lord" and the Trib.

Make sense?

 

[JLB]

gr8grace3 said -

1. I believe that there are 2 distinct comings of the Lord. The rapture and the second advent. The rapture, He does not step foot on the Ground and the 2nd advent He comes to reign. Do you see it like this?
2. In vs 1 "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is the rapture, when He comes in the air. 1 Thess 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The Raptured ones are caught up to be together with the Resurrected ones.

We will all be together with the Lord.

Verse 17 here is crystal clear that the Resurrection occurs a moment [twinkling of an eye] just before the Rapture.

The Resurrection and Rapture is one event that is referred to as the Gathering.

The gathering of all the saints to be with the Lord.

One Event!

The Resurrection and Rapture is ONE EVENT!

Everywhere in scripture we see the Gathering at the Lord's Coming.

The Resurrection can not be separated from the Rapture.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23


There is no seven year time-span between the Rapture and the Resurrection.

It is One Event that occurs at His coming.


Be blessed, JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I read those verses and think they are very convincing of a pre trib rapture. I will try to lay it out as how I read them.

1. I believe that there are 2 distinct comings of the Lord. The rapture and the second advent. The rapture, He does not step foot on the Ground and the 2nd advent He comes to reign. Do you see it like this?

The most famous of the pre-Trib rapture passages is 1 Thess 4:13-18, but there isn't anything there to indicate that He returns to Heaven. Just that believers will meet Him in the air.

"13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangeland with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another withthese words." NASB

First, notice that "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus". Why would those who have already died come with Jesus for a pre-Trib rapture? I see no purpose, nor is one given in Scripture. In fact, Rev 20:4 mentions those who "came to life and reigned with CVhrist 1,000 years". If the rapture is pre-Trib, all who have died in Christ would already have been raised or come alive, 7 yrs earlier.

Second, v.15 says "the coming of the Lord". How can this not be the "Second Coming"? I do not see 2 distinct "comings" of the Lord. I believe that is being "read into the passage". It's really not there.

When Christ returns to earth at the end of the Trib, to rule for 1,000 years on earth, He will bring those who have already died, plus all believers currently alive on earth will be "caught up together with them in the clouds" (v.17). 1 Thess 4:13-18 says nothing about the Lord returning to Heaven, which is the pre-Trib view.

2. In vs 1 "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is the rapture, when He comes in the air.

The issue is that in 2 Thess 2:1, if referring to a pre-Trib rapture, that it doesn't occur UNTIL "the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed". This is obviously referring to the Trib and the antichrist. So, if 2:1 refers to a pre-Trib coming and rapture, then it cannot occur before the Trib and antichrist is revealed.

Do you see the contradiction? The only solution is that 2:1 refers to the Second Coming and rapture as occurring together, which "cannot come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed". v.3

3. In vs 2 "the day of the lord" refers to the 2nd advent,when He comes to the earth. And THAT day does not come until after the trib and man of lawlessness is revealed.

Again, I see a problem with the fact that the subject of ch 2 is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" (NIV). That is the context for v.1-12.

I don't see why Paul would mention the rapture and then in the next verse change subjects and then refer to the Second Advent. I believe the "coming of our Lord" and the "day of the Lord" are the same thing here in 2 Thess 2.

We get a clue from the forged letter that Paul was addressing. this letter was most likely from the Jews and they did not believe in the rapture but they sure wanted their King to come. The forged letter to the Thessalonians was a false teaching that the day of the lord had come and they were worried they missed the Rapture. Paul had to address that the trib comes before the "day of the lord" because the Forged letter said that the "day of the Lord" was at hand.

I don't see how this applies to a pre-Trib rapture. From v.1-4, it seems that Paul is saying that the rapture will not come until the Tribulation and the revealing of the antichrist.

So the forged letter in vs 2 was missing the rapture but taught the "Day of the Lord" had come. (And they were still here!) The Jews fully believed in the day of the Lord,but not the rapture. So Pauls main point was to address that the "day of the Lord" had not come. And He lays out the criteria for the Day of the Lord, the rapture was naturally before the "day of the Lord" and the Trib.

Make sense?

I hope my explanations are helpful. Whether the Jews believed in a rapture doesn't impact the issue. The phrase "day of the Lord" throughout Scripture refers to the Second Coming.

Also, compare these passages for similarities:
1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:30-31. The key here is that Matt 24 specifically indicates that His return happened "after the Tribulation".

I don't see any problems with a post-Trib rapture. It seems to me to be that Christ gathers those believers who are "still alive and remain" (1 Cor 15) when He returns to rule the earth for the Millennium. Recall that Christ comes with all who have already died in Him (2 Thess 2:1). I see no reason why Christ would bring all of them just to rapture believers who are alive on earth before the Trib.

 

[veryberry]

Just that believers will meet Him in the air.

And this is where we will be with the Lord forever...in the air, i.e heavenly places. I don't believe we will be coming back with Christ at his second coming and ruling and reigning on earth, That is an Israel promise. We will rule and reign in the heavenly places.

1 Thess 4:17 -
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL we ever be with the Lord. So shall is saying how we will be with the Lord forever, which is, in the air. Israel meets Christ on earth....

The fact is many Christians believe the pre-trib rapture, because it is what they are told and not because they studied it out for themselves.

Mid-trib and Post-trib fall in line with the statement above, but also because they don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth. They want to put us smack dab in with Israel.

Once you learn right division, and come to the understanding that God has 2 programs, Israel and their promises(God using Israel to reconcile the world), and the Body of Christ and their promises(God using the Body of Christ to reconcile the heavenlies), you will clearly see that not one part of the Body of Christ will ever step foot in the Time of Jacobs Trouble.

 

[gr8grace3]

And this is where we will be with the Lord forever...in the air, i.e heavenly places. I don't believe we will be coming back with Christ at his second coming and ruling and reigning on earth, That is an Israel promise. We will rule and reign in the heavenly places.

1 Thess 4:17 -
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL we ever be with the Lord. So shall is saying how we will be with the Lord forever, which is, in the air. Israel meets Christ on earth....

The fact is many Christians believe the pre-trib rapture, because it is what they are told and not because they studied it out for themselves.

Mid-trib and Post-trib fall in line with the statement above, but also because they don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth. They want to put us smack dab in with Israel.

Once you learn right division, and come to the understanding that God has 2 programs, Israel and their promises(God using Israel to reconcile the world), and the Body of Christ and their promises(God using the Body of Christ to reconcile the heavenlies), you will clearly see that not one part of the Body of Christ will ever step foot in the Time of Jacobs Trouble.

Gregg and freegrace are no amateurs when it comes to studying.

And I agree with you.But I do see the bride coming back with Him and I speculate the we will have roles in the Mill.Kingdom , but our Home is in Heaven.

I agree with you on the Church(heavenly promises) and Israel(Earthly promises). The last week of Daniels 70 weeks is for Israel. And God is dealing with Israel in the last 7 years. That is why the Church is gone. He never used the church and even kept the church a mystery in His dealings with Israel.

 

[FreeGrace]

And this is where we will be with the Lord forever...in the air, i.e heavenly places. I don't believe we will be coming back with Christ at his second coming and ruling and reigning on earth, That is an Israel promise. We will rule and reign in the heavenly places.

1 Thess 4:17 does not say anything about being with the Lord forecver in the air. Just that we will meet Him in the air. His second coming is always described as Him coming "on the clouds", and 1 Thess 4:17 says that we will be "caught up together with them (those believers who have already died) in the clouds". The verse says that we will be with Him forever, but doesn't say where, specifically. Only that we meet Him in the air. There is no reason to reject that He gathers His elect on His way down to earth to end the Trib and set up His earthly 1,000 yr reign.

Second, His earthly reign is for everyone, not just Israel. There are no verses that say or suggest that the Millennium is only for Jews.

1 Thess 4:17 -
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL we ever be with the Lord. So shall is saying how we will be with the Lord forever, which is, in the air. Israel meets Christ on earth….

Yes, we will meet Him in the air, and be with Him forever. If you follow Rev 20-21, it is clear that once He returns, all who are on the earth will be in the Millennium and then in the eternal state in the new heavens and earth. Those who are raptured will never experience heaven.

The fact is many Christians believe the pre-trib rapture, because it is what they are told and not because they studied it out for themselves.

Yes, I agree.

Mid-trib and Post-trib fall in line with the statement above, but also because they don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth. They want to put us smack dab in with Israel.

I find no evidence for anything but the rapture when Christ returns at the Second Coming.

Once you learn right division, and come to the understanding that God has 2 programs, Israel and their promises(God using Israel to reconcile the world), and the Body of Christ and their promises(God using the Body of Christ to reconcile the heavenlies), you will clearly see that not one part of the Body of Christ will ever step foot in the Time of Jacobs Trouble.

So you're a pre-tribber, huh. Fine. But there are no verses to support that view. Only external reasons to support the view.

There are not "2 programs" of God. He has only one plan for mankind. The plan is divided up into what can be called "dispensations". But the overall plan is about redemption. That is His single plan for mankind.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Gregg and freegrace are no amateurs when it comes to studying.

And I agree with you.But I do see the bride coming back with Him and I speculate the we will have roles in the Mill.Kingdom , but our Home is in Heaven.

I agree with you on the Church(heavenly promises) and Israel(Earthly promises). The last week of Daniels 70 weeks is for Israel. And God is dealing with Israel in the last 7 years. That is why the Church is gone. He never used the church and even kept the church a mystery in His dealings with Israel.

With all respect, I think this is speculation. I've given the verses that indicate that the rapture cannot occur until the rebellion occurs and the antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2). And the NT is full of warnings about the return of Christ and the believer's need to be ready. But no verses about His coming for believers anytime before His second coming.

I do believe that faithful believers will be spared His wrath, just as 2 Thess 5:10 promises. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we miss the Trib. It does indicate that faithful believers will miss the wrath that is poured out on the earth, directed towards unbelievers, and I suspect, unfaithful/disobedient believers. I think such believers will experience the "sin unto death" that John noted in 1 Jn 5:16.

 

[veryberry]

Gregg and freegrace are no amateurs when it comes to studying.

I did not mean for that to be taken this way, and I hope that they do not take it as such. If so, I apologize.

And I agree with you.But I do see the bride coming back with Him and I speculate the we will have roles in the Mill.Kingdom , but our Home is in Heaven.

I agree with you on the Church(heavenly promises) and Israel(Earthly promises). The last week of Daniels 70 weeks is for Israel. And God is dealing with Israel in the last 7 years. That is why the Church is gone. He never used the church and even kept the church a mystery in His dealings with Israel.

I use to think this as well. This is actually a pretty big study I am working on, but in short. Both the Heavens as well as the earth are unclean.

Rom 8:22 - For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now

What is this "whole creation"? In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It is everything God created. But there is a specific part of the creation, that concerns us.

Rom 8: 19-21 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What is this "creature"? I believe it has everything to do with what we will be doing in the heavenly places. We will be laboring with our Father in reconciling the heavenly places. We will be replacing the heavenly government i.e principalities, and powers, that are corrupt in the heavenlys.

 

[gr8grace3]

The most famous of the pre-Trib rapture passages is 1 Thess 4:13-18, but there isn't anything there to indicate that He returns to Heaven. Just that believers will meet Him in the air.

Thank you Freegrace. I agree that this verse doesn't specifically say that. I will be brief with my answers and then continue to study on this matter. John 14:3 is where I go for the idea that we will go where he is going. His Fathers house is in heaven.

"13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangeland with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another withthese words." NASB

First, notice that "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus". Why would those who have already died come with Jesus for a pre-Trib rapture? I see no purpose, nor is one given in Scripture. In fact, Rev 20:4 mentions those who "came to life and reigned with CVhrist 1,000 years". If the rapture is pre-Trib, all who have died in Christ would already have been raised or come alive, 7 yrs earlier.

I believe "in Jesus" is the key here. Only the Church is considered to be "in union" with Him and indwelt by the Spirit(the OT saints were not). I believe He brings all church age believers with Him because it is the Gathering of the Royal family and the beginning of the bema seat and the seven year period of the trib is when this takes place in heaven. The Trib saints do not have the Promise of being in union with Christ. Still saved and eternally secure, it just goes back to the way He dealt with Israel. The union(In Christ) with Christ is a church age only promise.
One note on 1 Thess 4:14~~2 doctrines in this verse. Eternal salvation and eternal security. The 2 "bookends" of this verse.

The issue is that in 2 Thess 2:1, if referring to a pre-Trib rapture, that it doesn't occur UNTIL "the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed". This is obviously referring to the Trib and the antichrist. So, if 2:1 refers to a pre-Trib coming and rapture, then it cannot occur before the Trib and antichrist is revealed.

So do think, maybe, that once the rebellion starts the rapture could happen? It does not say ,"Until the rebellion is finished." I don't see that it has to be complete or midway through. And concerning the antichrist.....Matt 24:15~~New American Standard Bible
"Therefore when you see(lawlessness revealed) the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),......I see this as the man of lawlessness revealed.

Daniel 9:27~~New American Standard Bible
"And he(lawlessness/ruler) will make a firm covenant with the many(Jews) for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."....I see this as the man of lawlessness revealed right at or right before the week of years of the tribulation.

 

[veryberry]

With all respect, I think this is speculation. I've given the verses that indicate that the rapture cannot occur until the rebellion occurs and the antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2). And the NT is full of warnings about the return of Christ and the believer's need to be ready. But no verses about His coming for believers anytime before His second coming.

I do believe that faithful believers will be spared His wrath, just as 2 Thess 5:10 promises. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we miss the Trib. It does indicate that faithful believers will miss the wrath that is poured out on the earth, directed towards unbelievers, and I suspect, unfaithful/disobedient believers. I think such believers will experience the "sin unto death" that John noted in 1 Jn 5:16.

How is it that we are saved from God's wrath, yet we still have to go through his wrath? How is it that we are at peace with God yet we still have to endure his wrath? We are reconciled to God, yet we still suffer his wrath? We are cleansed from all sin, forgive of all iniquity now, and we will not suffer his wrath in no way. The first 5 chapters in Romans will tell you this.

I ask you to do a phrase search on "so shall" in the AV1611 of course and you will be shocked on what you will find. I'll give you the first occurrence.

GEN 15:5 - And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them:and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

How shall his seed be? as the number of the stars.

How shall we ever be with the Lord? in the air.

 

[gr8grace3]

With all respect, I think this is speculation. I've given the verses that indicate that the rapture cannot occur until the rebellion occurs and the antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2). And the NT is full of warnings about the return of Christ and the believer's need to be ready. But no verses about His coming for believers anytime before His second coming.

I do believe that faithful believers will be spared His wrath, just as 2 Thess 5:10 promises. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we miss the Trib. It does indicate that faithful believers will miss the wrath that is poured out on the earth, directed towards unbelievers, and I suspect, unfaithful/disobedient believers. I think such believers will experience the "sin unto death" that John noted in 1 Jn 5:16.

I am just speculating that you are no amateur when it comes to studying?

I will keep studying. And I think that this doctrine is similar to the trinity. It builds using scripture upon scripture.

I do not see that the rebellion has to be finished. "Until it occurs" could very well be when it starts,IMO.

And I do see the antichrist revealed to make the 1 week of years covenant with Israel, or Daniels people.

I am going to keep studying and looking. Thank you Brother.

 

[gr8grace3]

How is it that we are saved from God's wrath, yet we still have to go through his wrath? How is it that we are at peace with God yet we still have to endure his wrath? We are reconciled to God, yet we still suffer his wrath? We are cleansed from all sin, forgive of all iniquity now, and we will not suffer his wrath in no way. The first 5 chapters in Romans will tell you this.

I ask you to do a phrase search on "so shall" in the AV1611 of course and you will be shocked on what you will find. I'll give you the first occurrence.

GEN 15:5 - And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them:and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

How shall his seed be? as the number of the stars.

How shall we ever be with the Lord? in the air.

From my studies, in Rev 3:10 we have the preposition EK for "from" the hour of testing. With this preposition used it means "out of." Not to protect them "In" it but to protect them "from" it.
New American Standard Bible
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from(EK,out of) the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

1Thess.1:10 “and to wait for His Son from (ek,out of) heaven, whom He raised from (ek ,out of)) the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers/rescues us from (ek, Out of) the wrath to come ”; 1Thess.5:9 “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation/deliverance (sothri,a, soteria: salvation, deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe "in Jesus" is the key here. Only the Church is considered to be "in union" with Him and indwelt by the Spirit(the OT saints were not). I believe He brings all church age believers with Him because it is the Gathering of the Royal family and the beginning of the bema seat and the seven year period of the trib is when this takes place in heaven. The Trib saints do not have the Promise of being in union with Christ. Still saved and eternally secure, it just goes back to the way He dealt with Israel. The union(In Christ) with Christ is a church age only promise.
One note on 1 Thess 4:14~~2 doctrines in this verse. Eternal salvation and eternal security. The 2 "bookends" of this verse.

I agree totally with all this. Good points!

So do think, maybe, that once the rebellion starts the rapture could happen? It does not say ,"Until the rebellion is finished." I don't see that it has to be complete or midway through. And concerning the antichrist.....Matt 24:15~~New American Standard Bible
"Therefore when you see(lawlessness revealed) the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),......I see this as the man of lawlessness revealed.

I take my cue on when I think the rapture occurs from Matt 24:29-31 - "29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

v.29 says "immediately after the tribulation…". And the rest sounds quite familiar to the 2 "standard" pre-trib passages on rapture: 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:17.

Daniel 9:27~~New American Standard Bible
"And he(lawlessness/ruler) will make a firm covenant with the many(Jews) for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."....I see this as the man of lawlessness revealed right at or right before the week of years of the tribulation.

Actually, Dan 9:27 doesn't say "make a covenant", but affirm a covenant. Sounds like a covenant that was already in effect, and the antichrist is simply re-affirming it. That could be the 1948 UN resolution (or whatever it's called) that gave Israel sovereignty initially. iow, the antichrist will seem to be supporting and protecting Israel by this act of affirming her right of statehood, then enters the temple to blaspheme.

 

[FreeGrace]

How is it that we are saved from God's wrath, yet we still have to go through his wrath?

The wrath won't touch faithful believers. Just as the 10 plagues of Egypt didn't touch the Jews. They were protected from God's judgment on Egypt. In fact, several of the 21 listed judgments in Revelation specifically note that believers will not be effected by those judgments. God has no problem keeping His faithful children from His wrath. Also keep in mind that going though all the judgments and noting the % of population killed during the Trib comes to about 40-50%, so there will be many survivors of the Trib, on that basis alone.

How is it that we are at peace with God yet we still have to endure his wrath?

As I said, we won't, because He will protect His faithful children from His wrath which He will rain down on the earth.

We are reconciled to God, yet we still suffer his wrath?

As I said, nope.

I ask you to do a phrase search on "so shall" in the AV1611 of course and you will be shocked on what you will find. I'll give you the first occurrence.

GEN 15:5 - And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them:and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

How shall his seed be? as the number of the stars.

How shall we ever be with the Lord? in the air.

What does "so shall" have to do with when the rapture occurs?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am just speculating that you are no amateur when it comes to studying?

I will keep studying. And I think that this doctrine is similar to the trinity. It builds using scripture upon scripture.

I do not see that the rebellion has to be finished. "Until it occurs" could very well be when it starts,IMO.

And I do see the antichrist revealed to make the 1 week of years covenant with Israel, or Daniels people.

I am going to keep studying and looking. Thank you Brother.

As I recall, the pre-trib view is that the rapture occurs before the Trib, not "until it occurs".

I do not "fall on my sword" over this view. If the rapture is pre-trib, and during my lifetime ( :yes ) my smile will be at least as big as yours will be, if not bigger. But if it is post-trib, I fear for the faith of so many believers who are conviced it was supposed to be pre-trib. I fear they may seriously doubt Scripture on other points as well.

 

[veryberry]

The wrath won't touch faithful believers. Just as the 10 plagues of Egypt didn't touch the Jews. They were protected from God's judgment on Egypt. In fact, several of the 21 listed judgments in Revelation specifically note that believers will not be effected by those judgments. God has no problem keeping His faithful children from His wrath. Also keep in mind that going though all the judgments and noting the % of population killed during the Trib comes to about 40-50%, so there will be many survivors of the Trib, on that basis alone.


As I said, we won't, because He will protect His faithful children from His wrath which He will rain down on the earth.


As I said, nope.


What does "so shall" have to do with when the rapture occurs?

Israel suffered the first 3 plagues along with Egypt.