The Rapture is wrong !

[Theofilus]

This is just wrong, plain and simple.. The rapture was talked about as early if not earier than 375 AD.
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
Question for you post tribers. Can you show me where in history any writing of a "post trib view" and I don't mean the bible, Because we see the same verses and have different views, anywhere in history ?
As you can see and check for yourself, the mention of rapture was around at lease 1000 yrs before Darby. So just to say the 1800 is the birth of the pretrib view is wrong, wrong.

I have never heard of Pseudo-Ephraem before, so I googled him. I found the text from which your quote was taken. He says some other interesting things in the same text.

Dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains. Has not faith withered away among mankind? How many foolish things are seen among youths, how many crimes among prelates, how many lies among priests, how many perjuries among deacons! There are evil deeds among the ministers, adulteries in the aged, wantonness in the youths--in mature women false faces, in virgins dangerous traces! In the midst of all this there are the wars with the Persians, and we see struggles with diverse nations threatening and "kingdom rising against kingdom." When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire. In those days two brothers will come to the Roman empire who will rule with one mind; but because one will surpass the other, there will be a schism between them. And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

He predicted that the rapture and tribulation would be connected with the fall of the Roman Empire. It's hard to put an exact date on it, but the latest generally accepted date for the end of the Roman Empire is in the early 7th century. According to Pseudo-Ephraem, we are now a full 1300 years past the rapture.

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (Deu. 18:22 NIV)

While this does indeed appear to be an example of belief in a pre-trib rapture from well before the 19th century, according to the biblical standard, Pseudo-Ephraem was a false prophet. While this doesn't necessarily mean that he was wrong about everything else, it does mean that he is not a source that we can base our doctrines on.

 

[stovebolts]

And isn't it interesting that two weeks of the most recent posts are just gone! Vanished into cyber space? I don't think so. More like a convenient way to edit the forum.

While I can see how you are viewing this in that manner, please know that this is not the case. You are not the only one who has lost their post.. it's site wide and we all took the hit. This is a matter of logistics, not conspiracy.

Freeway,
Please try resetting your password and let me know if you are able to get back in via PM.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Vic C.]

Amen! And I can't log in either as who I am. Seems more like a way to dictate who will be allowed back in and who won't be considering some of the old users are back in here with the same names they had before the change.
It wreaks of deception!
Praise God, the Lord Jesus Christ, that those who would do such a thing are damned no matter what they do.

Now why don't you just simply try to log in under your old ID? When you get to the error page, there will an option there to reset your passcode.

When they finally get around to gather up the last of the missing threads and posts from the old database and move them to the new site, presto, all the "missing" stuff will reappear. Just like "magic". LOL

Believe me, I had some stuff in here as well that I want back. There IS no conspiracy. ing

 

[Vic C.]

As I read through all 6 pages of bickering and twisting scripture to “prove” the point, I am amazed that no one has even questioned where and when this “rapture” idea came from. It seems it is taken “as Gospel” and no one dares question it. So here it is in a nutshell, and I pray that you research for yourself, if nothing else than to “prove me wrong” so that God may open your eyes.

The concept of a “rapture” did not exist until 1830, when Margaret MacDonald got sick and had “visions” of a 2-phase return of Messiah. John Darby (the father of dispensationalism) heard of this and he began teaching this new doctrine. Then, Edward Irving adopted this thinking, which ultimately led to his breaking away from the Presbyterian church in 1832. His followers established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and is considered by many scholars to be the birth of Pentecostalism....


... Of all the prophetic scripture that refer to the Tribulation, not a single one of them backs up this claim. It is all about God’s fury over His creation being disobedient to Him. The human race as a whole would NEVER repent without His righteous intervention.

Amen to that. But we need to go back a bit further, to Francisco Ribera, who predates McDonald and Darby.

To be honest, the idea of a future seven year "Tribulation period" came about when people opted to make Daniel 9:24-27 about a future antichrist and seven year period, instead of the tradition Messianic interpretation, ripping out a very important part of Messianic prophecy.

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by watchman F
Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus in this passage is prophecying of pretrib believing backsliders.

Watchman, can you please show me where this is actually talking about the pretrib? If anything, verse 48 is talking about post. but really its talking about neither.

You misunderstood my statement. Jesus isn;t saying there will be a pretrib rapture, He is saying that some will believe He has delayed His coming and therefore turn from faith and begin to sin with the sinners, and hate believers. Why because they have falsely believed in a pretrib rapture that never came. Once the Tribulation begins they are going to believe Jesus has delayed His coming.

 

[Sinthesis]

Now why don't you just simply try to log in under your old ID? When you get to the error page, there will an option there to reset your passcode.

When they finally get around to gather up the last of the missing threads and posts from the old database and move them to the new site, presto, all the "missing" stuff will reappear. Just like "magic". LOL

Believe me, I had some stuff in here as well that I want back. There IS no conspiracy. ing

Oh really? It sure seems like a conspiracy. They not only raptured my original identity, but my Isaiah 8:12 (NIV) signature as well.:wink3

 

[Vic C.]

Oh really? It sure seems like a conspiracy. They not only raptured my original identity, but my Isaiah 8:12 (NIV) signature as well.:wink3

LOL, if you really think this is a conspiracy, then you should be looking for another verse for your siggy. :D

 

[Greg]

I keep getting these e-mail messages that I have to reset my password, and when I finally get in after much toing and froing, they've reverted to an old backup version of my profile and signature. They say it's all part of enhancing my experience, but to me, it looks just like plain old computer trouble. At least, I'm still me, but during this session, I don't have the permission to access my own profile. Fun, eh?

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Greg, look around the main page of the forum. Near the bottom of the page is a section to log complaints and issues. We would appreciate it if as many members as possible could post there. There's strength in numbers; the more we air out the issues, the quicker they can get us back into a normal BBS experience.

We just ask you have a little patience. It's been rough on me too.

 

[walter]

Jesus said immediately AFTER the tribulation He would send His angels to gather the elect.

Matthew 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Too many people today would rather follow the teachings of men and not God. This is as plain as the nose on your face. There is no rapture in the Jack Van Impe sense.

 

[Codger]

The Rapture is a Futurist myth. They believe in four comings of Christ in order to make their fractured Eschatology work. There are in reality only two - the first and second comings. The second coming ends time and the world is burned off just like Peter said it would be.

Christians have always thought that when things get bad enough Christ will come and rescue them - this view continues to this day. In Roman times the worst it got was under Diocletion who martyred 450,000 Christians - the most of any Emperor ever. They fully expected to be rescued by the second coming - but they were not!

Today God is poised to bring in the greatest harvest of people ever in history. Estimates of one billion according to some prophetic people. The workmen are needed to bring in this harvest from the field; and God is not going to pull out all of the workmen from the field by some silly secret coming and allow the harvest to rot in the field. It always amazes me of how easily Christians are willing to throw the unsaved under the bus - God is loving and will exhaust every effort to bring them unto himself. The Muslims and Jews also easily and without effort are willing to dispose of the Infidels and the goyim.

Unpack your bags and get ready for the great harvest.

 

[walter]

and God is not going to pull out all of the workmen from the field by some silly secret coming and allow the harvest to rot in the field. It always amazes me of how easily Christians are willing to throw the unsaved under the bus...

Yeah, and I always wondered how letting a plane load of people plow into the ground becuase their pilot was "raptured" would further the cause of Christ.

 

[Thranduil]

Now why don't you just simply try to log in under your old ID? When you get to the error page, there will an option there to reset your passcode.

When they finally get around to gather up the last of the missing threads and posts from the old database and move them to the new site, presto, all the "missing" stuff will reappear. Just like "magic". LOL

Believe me, I had some stuff in here as well that I want back. There IS no conspiracy. ing

HAH! What a joke.
I finally got an email sent to me that claimed it would allow me to re-enter under my original user name, clicked on it and supposedly I could come back in here and use it, WRONG!
Still can't, tried the reset fields thing and that didn't work either.

 

[Thranduil]

I keep getting these e-mail messages that I have to reset my password, and when I finally get in after much toing and froing, they've reverted to an old backup version of my profile and signature. They say it's all part of enhancing my experience, but to me, it looks just like plain old computer trouble. At least, I'm still me, but during this session, I don't have the permission to access my own profile. Fun, eh?

Yeah, it'll be fun to see this forum become a bigger mess than it's already been made.
How is it that this can be botched twice?
Last time they simply brought back the old design and everything was fine until they did it again and this time they lost two weeks of postings. That's two weeks of documentation! Like fifteen minutes of Watergate tapes, convenient, but there's NO conspiracy, just administrators claiming everything supposedly works now.

 

[watchman F]

Jesus said immediately AFTER the tribulation He would send His angels to gather the elect.

Matthew 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Too many people today would rather follow the teachings of men and not God. This is as plain as the nose on your face. There is no rapture in the Jack Van Impe sense.

Amen walter, you are 100% correct.

 

[walter]

Let's get back on topic.

Check out this site. I have read and agree with every point made. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching --- Reasons Why I question it.

Just a few:


1. Jesus said the wheat and the weeds (tares) are to grow up together until the harvest (Matthew 13:30). Jesus defined the timing of the harvest as the end of the age (Matthew 13:39, 49). He not only presented the parable, but He explained it. I don’t understand how anyone could think that this simple teaching of Jesus can be overruled by a teaching that says in exact opposite that the wheat and the tares do not have to grow up together until the harvest. Why do we concoct elaborate teachings that attempt to prove what Jesus said does not apply to us?



2. Jesus said those of His disciples who endure to the end will be saved. The end He was talking about was the end of the age, because His disciples were asking Him what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matthew 24:13).



3. Jesus warned His disciples that they would “see†the antichrist (Matthew 24:15).

 

[Thranduil]

The Rapture is a Futurist myth. They believe in four comings of Christ in order to make their fractured Eschatology work. There are in reality only two - the first and second comings. The second coming ends time and the world is burned off just like Peter said it would be.

Christians have always thought that when things get bad enough Christ will come and rescue them - this view continues to this day. In Roman times the worst it got was under Diocletion who martyred 450,000 Christians - the most of any Emperor ever. They fully expected to be rescued by the second coming - but they were not!

Today God is poised to bring in the greatest harvest of people ever in history. Estimates of one billion according to some prophetic people. The workmen are needed to bring in this harvest from the field; and God is not going to pull out all of the workmen from the field by some silly secret coming and allow the harvest to rot in the field. It always amazes me of how easily Christians are willing to throw the unsaved under the bus - God is loving and will exhaust every effort to bring them unto himself. The Muslims and Jews also easily and without effort are willing to dispose of the Infidels and the goyim.

Unpack your bags and get ready for the great harvest.

:amen
I always love it when at least one other person (and fortunately there is more than just one), who understands this and expresses it so simply.

Those who deny it do exactly as you have stated, throw them under the bus.

You are SO RIGHT, "God is loving and will exhaust every effort to bring them unto himself. Unpack your bags and get ready for the great harvest."

Personally I expect about 2 billion new believers will come in as the tribulation unfolds; it will be hard to deny the testimony of the two witnesses and EASY to point your finger in the book of Revelation 11:6 and say, "You see those two and you can read this right? Are they doing what it says here?"
And;
Revelation 13:16, and say, "Is this happening too?"
And for those who finally get it and have taken the mark and inquire (of me at least), "Is there anything I can do now?", and I'll reply, "Can't promise you anything but you might try this";
Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell".
A pretty extreme thing to have to do but a strong testimony of a persons desire to repent.
It offers hope instead of throwing them under the bus.:yes

 

[freeway]

I have never heard of Pseudo-Ephraem before, so I googled him. I found the text from which your quote was taken. He says some other interesting things in the same text.



He predicted that the rapture and tribulation would be connected with the fall of the Roman Empire. It's hard to put an exact date on it, but the latest generally accepted date for the end of the Roman Empire is in the early 7th century. According to Pseudo-Ephraem, we are now a full 1300 years past the rapture.



While this does indeed appear to be an example of belief in a pre-trib rapture from well before the 19th century, according to the biblical standard, Pseudo-Ephraem was a false prophet. While this doesn't necessarily mean that he was wrong about everything else, it does mean that he is not a source that we can base our doctrines on.

I never said he was right, but just that the idea of a pre trib rapture was way before the 1800. When someone says that pre trib is a new, it just makes chuckle

 

[freeway]

You misunderstood my statement. Jesus isn;t saying there will be a pretrib rapture, He is saying that some will believe He has delayed His coming and therefore turn from faith and begin to sin with the sinners, and hate believers. Why because they have falsely believed in a pretrib rapture that never came. Once the Tribulation begins they are going to believe Jesus has delayed His coming.

Now because the world says "where is His coming? since our fathers have fallen asleep all is the same. this is the scoffers that are alive until the coming of Jesus.
So you get pre trib rapture out of this... now that is a stretch.. Like I said before you have the trumpets wrong.. you say life is just normal in the tribulation... I don't think so..

 

[watchman F]

Now because the world says "where is His coming? since our fathers have fallen asleep all is the same. this is the scoffers that are alive until the coming of Jesus.
So you get pre trib rapture out of this... now that is a stretch.. Like I said before you have the trumpets wrong.. you say life is just normal in the tribulation... I don't think so..

Show me one post where I say that life during the Tribulation (especially for believers) is normal?