The 144000 are the elect which Jesus said would be gathered at the time of his coming.
That's why they are seen with Christ on Mt Zion.
The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation
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That's why they are seen with Christ on Mt Zion.
What is plain to see by the present tense that the Paul uses, is that the apostles, who most certainly did not assume for themselves as being assured any length of life longer than one day at a time, believed that "WE WHO ARE ALIVE" could be raptured by the Lord at any time, with no prerequisite event having to occur first.
They believed they could be gathered even before the gospel ink was dry.
No Revelation events required .
Could be two harvests , yes I can see your interpretation too . Hard to say now that I have studied it more
, but that is what it is all about !I do understand why you say this .
But no way do I agree here with you about Joel 3:13 . Grapes
are wicked ? "their wickedness is great " Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Pretty good write up for a ninth grader !
reddogs , you still posting on this thread ? You have some comments .
The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation
We can easily find the origin of this false idea of 7 year of tribulation that has been spread among Christians... And where the error and deception came from "The Origins of the Pretribulation Rapture Theory The pretribulation rapture theory is a relatively recent development in Christian...
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Not according to Paul.
Paul taught that there would be a falling away and the son of perdition would be revealed whom the Lord will destroy at his coming before we would be gathered to the Lord at his coming.
Paul taught events would take place before the coming of our Lord.
Not true.
All the signs the LORD gave are what we are to be watching for.
The LORD does not come as a thief in the night for the watching church.
- But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
Again, the resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.
- that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
The resurrection happens first, then the rapture (being caught up).
We will all be caught together to meet the Lord in the air.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
The resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming.
JLB
If that were that were the case for prerequisite events to happen first, Paul would use the same language which makes clear the possibility that he could be alive for the "events"
Exactly as he does when speaking of Christ gathering His elect, which Paul, by his language includes himself in & leaves no doubt that in his mind that it could happen the day he wrote " WE WHICH ARE ALIVE "
His language of his implied living presence for one event but not for the others denotes the sequence of these events.
Well ,Paul obviously never saw the events he prophecied of so he knew Christ wasn't coming at anytime.
But I expect Paul actually knew it would be a couple thousand years because Barnabas said it would be in his epistle.
Peter also mentioned a day to the Lord was as 1000 years so I expect Peter knew also.
Why did Paul write the possibility that he would be alive " WE WHO ARE ALIVE" to be raptured by the Lord if the possibility was not the truth ?
So to your mind when a person says "we" the intent is to exclude themselves rather than include themselves ?
Brother if you choose to reject the plain words of scripture then that is your choice.
The word of the Lord —
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
- that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep
The other thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
JLB
Maybe we should discuss the signs Jesus gave before He returns at His coming and the end of the age?
Shall we?
I don’t find the word “imminent” in the teachings of Christ.
The Day of the LORD does not come as a thief in the night for the Church.
JLB
"Behold, the Lord came with MANY THOUSANDS of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." Jude 14, 15
Aren't you the one who removed one of my posts for being critical of a poster? Kind of hypocritical don't you think? Aren't you the guy who didn't even know that Melchizedek was a New Testament doctrine . . . the guy who cannot discern that there are two separate harvests in Revelation 14?
In my mind ,Paul didn't lie.
But by your interpretation ,Paul would have lied for you say Paul claimed he would still be alive when Christ comes but Paul has long been dead making him.a liar.
Are you insisting that paul.is a liar by claiming he would live till Christ comes?
I will take the Word of this Jesus who is the Christ .
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Paul was not dead the day that he said "We who are alive"
What language would you use to denote an event that you believe could happen at any moment ?
Mar 13:35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: