The Rapture

[Vic C.]

Amen Todd.

And Preterism would fit in there where?

Todd just explained it. :yes

What Ribera wrote is irrelevant. God's Word as written is not that difficult to understand. It's not difficult to understand the timing of Christ's return being after the tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31

Oh, if only it was that easy. When studying all eschatological views, much is relevant.

 

[veteran]

veteran,

do you realize that there is a difference between a FULL (or hyper) preterist and a PARTIAL preterist? A full/hyper preterist views that THE 2nd Coming, resurrection, basically all prophecy in the NT has been fulfilled. MOST Christians don't take this view. A PARTIAL preterist means that a lot of prophecy was fulfilled in events around 70 AD, BUT the literal 2nd Coming (Parousia) of Christ, final judgment, resurrection, etc. are all still future events. I would label myself a partial preterist as I still look forward to these things, while acknowledging that a lot of "end times" events in the NT have already come to pass.

Yes, I realize there's varying versions from extreme to mild. That's still not the point though, because the majority of Christians are not familiar with those seminary type terms, and most of them could actually care less. I've been labeled just about all the categories at one time or another, and that has not helped others one bit in coming to understand God's Word as written. And if you get enough fulll Preterists speaking out that Christ's coming is past, then you're eventually going to get included among them simply by claiming to be a Preterist.

Have you ever heard of a 'progressive dispensationalist'? I mean there's new terms coming out of the siminaries all the time. It's a waste of time to try and create such labels and try to defend them. Christ showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His return and the gathering of the saints is after the tribulation, so if someone goes against that, it's simply a matter of that person choosing to believe something else other than what's written. It's as simple as that. No sense in trying to defend it using seminary labels, either one sticks to what the Scripture says or they don't.

 

[toddm]

veteran,

do you realize that there is a difference between a FULL (or hyper) preterist and a PARTIAL preterist? A full/hyper preterist views that THE 2nd Coming, resurrection, basically all prophecy in the NT has been fulfilled. MOST Christians don't take this view. A PARTIAL preterist means that a lot of prophecy was fulfilled in events around 70 AD, BUT the literal 2nd Coming (Parousia) of Christ, final judgment, resurrection, etc. are all still future events. I would label myself a partial preterist as I still look forward to these things, while acknowledging that a lot of "end times" events in the NT have already come to pass.

Yes, I realize there's varying versions from extreme to mild. That's still not the point though, because the majority of Christians are not familiar with those seminary type terms, and most of them could actually care less. I've been labeled just about all the categories at one time or another, and that has not helped others one bit in coming to understand God's Word as written. And if you get enough fulll Preterists speaking out that Christ's coming is past, then you're eventually going to get included among them simply by claiming to be a Preterist.

Have you ever heard of a 'progressive dispensationalist'? I mean there's new terms coming out of the siminaries all the time. It's a waste of time to try and create such labels and try to defend them. Christ showed in Matt.24:29-31 that His return and the gathering of the saints is after the tribulation, so if someone goes against that, it's simply a matter of that person choosing to believe something else other than what's written. It's as simple as that. No sense in trying to defend it using seminary labels, either one sticks to what the Scripture says or they don't.

I've heard of progressive dispensationalism, and I think terminology is a bit irrelevant. I guess that depends where you put the tribulation. I put the tribulation with events leading up to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. Rome began it's siege on Jerusalem 3.5 yrs (42 months) before it was finally destroyed in 70 AD. That's an amazing coincidence, if that's all it is. The word "coming" is often used as a word for judgment in the OT, so when Jesus said that He would come - He did, but not in the literal form that we still wait for. He came in the form of Rome carrying out his judgment just like God did w/ Babylon & Assyria in the OT.

 

[veteran]

.A believer must omit a lot of Scripture evidence for a bodily coming our Lord Jesus to believe it happened in 70 A.D. It also means not recognizing the resurrection of the dead, especially those who have died in Christ.

What does the Matthew 24 actually teach? Let's find out...

Matt 24:1-3
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(KJV)

At that time of Christ's first coming, the temple building complex was still entact. Our Lord Jesus pointed out to His disciples there that eventually, not one stone would be on top of another there. Technically, the Western Wall that still stands today in Jerusalem which was part of that old complex shows that is not complete yet. And if the orthodox Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem today, what would that mean for this sign? It would show the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem definitely is not the time our Lord Jesus was talking about, though it could serve as a Biblical ensample for the final end though.

Then note how His disciples understood Him, when asking what would be the sign of His coming, AND the end of the world. Thus the signs that follow which Christ gave to them does not ONLY involve the destruction of that temple complex of buildings, but also the end of this world. Some argue about that word "world", but that "world" He was speaking of is about the division between this world age since Adam, and the world to come eternal (Matt.10:30; 2 Pet.3; Isaiah 65; etc.).

Matt 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Then Christ Jesus begins to give them the 'sign' for that time of destruction of the temple complex and the end of the world. These signs parallel the seven seals of Revelation, which give more information to go along with here. And if the seven seals are involved, so are the seven trumpet and seven vials, because the events of the seven seals, trumpets, and vials link to each other also.

Is there any today that proclaim to be Jesus Christ? Yes, there's been several just in today's generation. If the end of things had come in 70 A.D., then why is this sign still happenning today? Simple, Christ gave this sign for the end of this world we're still in today.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The really important sign Christ gave about wars and rumours of wars here, is to mark a time when those wars and rumours of wars have ended on earth, and like the Apostle Pau showed in 1 Thess.5, the time whill come when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then sudden destruction comes upon them. That's the timing of destruction of one stone not standing upon another Christ was talking about in the previous verses. So are wars still going on in this world? Yes. So the 'end' is not yet. That's strong evidence our Lord did not mean the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem was the end He was talking about.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Are these things still happenning on earth today? Yes. In contrast to Christ's coming, these signs are to be no more once Christ comes!

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

Since Christ died on the cross, Christians have been persecuted by this world. But has that stopped today? Clearly not. But can this mean a time of great persecution prior to Christ's return in association with all these other signs? Yes, as we're given further descriptions in Revelation about His elect that refused to receive the mark, nor bow to the beast image, or his name, that were beheaded for the Witness of Jesus. As long as this persecution is going on in the world, it shows the end of the world has not come. And it is literally happenning in many foreign lands today especially, with Muslims beheading Christian converts.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Those signs are present today also, especially as the "workers of iniquity" infiltrate the Churches to push all sorts of false agendas and doctrines designed to divide and conquer Christ's Body, hoping to turn Christians against Christians, brother against brother, father against son, mother against daughter, etc. And because of the material wantoness of the times, and how false prosperity doctrines is being taught, the compassion and love of many is waxing very cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If Christ has come the second time already, then why are we Christians today having to endure those previous signs still? Clearly, the "end" our Lord mentions there has not come yet, otherwise the persecutions of His elect would no longer exist like Scripture shows is to cease when He does return. Christ's Gospel is till going out to the nations today also. When Christ returns that witness will end, it'll be too late for many.

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Per the Book of Daniel, especially Dan.11, the "vile person" is to place the abomination that maketh desolate, and end the daily sacrifice. Here our Lord gives a bit more info, by declaring the abomination will "stand in the holy place". The holy place is the inner holy of holies of the Jerusalem temple. The 70 A.D. temple caught fire and was destroyed before the Romans could ever get a chance to do that. And Antiochus in 170 B.C. set the blueprint, for he did go into the inner part of the temple, and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and spread its broth inside the temple.

Antiochus actually fulfilled the Daniel prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" better than the Romans ever did, so why not say Christ came and the end of the world happenned in 170 B.C.? It's obvious why, because Christ had not yet come to die on the cross in 170 B.C. This shows what Antiochus Epiphanes did only as a type for the final placing of the "abomination of desolation". Since the Romans in 70 A.D. didn't even get inside the temple because of the fire, they cannot be considered as fulfilling the "abomination of desolation" event.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Many Christians did flee the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. But was 70 A.D. the only time, since there's been other later sieges of Jerusalem? Can that one event truly point to the end of this world by itself? No. Especially if another temple is built in our times (which is planned by the Jews), and Christians there have to flee again because of these type events with another army coming upon today's state of Israel (which we can see signs of an army forming up against Israel today).

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(KJV)

The woe to those with child is an Old Testament spiritual analogy about deception. Paul even used it for the deceived on the day of The Lord when Christ comes as a thief in the night, per 1 Thess.5. Our Lord Jesus was using it when speaking of the idea of His servants being spiritual virgins. Paul said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin" (2 Cor.11). Being in deception to these events means not remaining a chaste virgin for Christ, which our Lord Jesus covers why in later verses here to more depth.

If the 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans is compared to the greatest time of tribulation that's ever been, then it falls flat as an example, because the king of Babylon per history also destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, but ALSO took the majority of the house of Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years. And only a very small remnant of the house of Judah returned after that captivity, with the majority of Judah being furthered scattered through the nations. In that sense, what the Romans did in 70 A.D. doesn't compare with that tribulation by the king of Babylon. Yet our Lord Jesus said this "great tribulation" is to be of a type that has never been, nor will be again.

Further, at the end of this particular "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus speaks of, there's never to be another because when He comes all the kingdoms of this world become His and under His direct control (Rev.11:15). If Christ is ruling over all nations today, then why do His enemies still have power on the earth? Just that is in direct opposition to Scripture about the type of control and reign Christ is to have when He returns.

(continued...)

 

[veteran]

(Continued...)

Matt 24:22-26
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here Christ says that time of "great tribulation" will be shortened, for the sake of His elect. The Daniel prophecy orginally marked it for a period of 7 total years, with certain events to occur specifically during a 1260 day period. It has been shortened, which Christ revealed in another Scripture in Revelation.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Per the histories by the Jewish historian Josephus, there was a false one proclaiming to be messiah that misled many during that time of the Romans destroying Jerusalem. But there were no "great signs, and wonders" to go along with it.

Christ is speaking of a particular false messiah here. In the Greek "false Christs" is the word pseudochristos, pointing to 'a pseudo Christ'. The working of "great signs and wonders" is a very important link, because the "another beast", the one speaking like a dragon of Rev.13:11 forward is to work miracles and great wonders in the sight of men. Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2 that a false one would come first prior to our gathering to Christ, and that false one would sit in the Temple of God showing himself that he is God.

Christ also shows us the strength of that "great signs and wonders" working, when He said if possible, it would deceive His elect servants. A chosen elect cannot be deceived, for that's why they are chosen by Christ; He owns them and can prevent their being deceived. So how powerful would that miracle working by a pseudo messiah have to be, to even almost... deceive His elect? That's a lot different than some man who just says he's Christ. Our Lord Jesus gives this warning about a pseudo Christ two times, for emphasis, so it's a very important sign.

Matt 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In this 27th verse, our Lord is contrasting HOW He comes vs. how that pseudo Christ suddenly appears on earth. Like natural lightning that starts in the eastward sky, and strikes toward the westward part of the sky, so also that's how easy it will be to note His coming. In other words, it won't be a spiritual coming but a literal coming, because it will be easy for everyone to see, just as we can seen lightning in the sky.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This verse is also in association with the pseudo Christ events in the previous verses. At the end of Luke 17, Christ's disciples asked Him where the one taken in the field would be taken to. He said there, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:37). But here in Matt.24:28, it's the word "carcase" (even in the Greek, pointing to a dead body). This is a spiritual metaphor pointing to a literal truth. Eagles don't go after a dead carcase, they kill their prey. But scavenger birds like vultures do go after what's already dead.

In relation to His warning about that pseudo Christ, the dead carcase idea represents the spiritualy dead, the deceived. They will be gathered wherever those fake eagles are. They will appear as eagles for those on the "fly away" rapture doctrines, especially those on the "secret rapture" idea. But they will be eagles in disguise, even as Paul showed in 2 Cor.11 about Satan's servants transformed (disguised per the Greek) as ministers of righteousness, and Satan himself transformed into an angel of light.

What the pseudo Christ working is pointing to, is an ACTUAL working of a false messiah upon this earth doing a show of miracles similar to what our Lord Jesus did at His first coming. There has never been an event like that upon this earth before which will deceive the whole world into thinking that pseudo Christ is God, and be so powerful in deception by miracles, that if possible, it would almost deceive Christ's elect. The idea is a SUPERNATURAL working upon the earth that will cause the majority to think Christ has come literally, or whatever religious messiah one believes in, has come. Obviously, that kind of working upon the earth did not happen in 70 A.D. with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the temple. And Paul pointed to that pseudo Christ sitting in the Temple of God in Jerusalem per 2 Thess.2:3-4.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

All the nations that will be deceived during that tribulation will mourn when they see Christ coming in the clouds with great power and glory after that tribulation, to destroy that pseudo Christ. That is when the false one of 2 Thess.2 will be revealed to the whole world. That has not happenned yet. That is when Christ comes to setup His Kingdom here on earth, ruling over all nations with "a rod of iron", and His elect ruling on earth with Him (Revelation). The Ezekiel 40 forward chapters give a detailed description of Christ's reign on earth, as does Rev.20.

And there's that trumpet of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15, the 7th trumpet of Rev.11:15 when all the kingdoms of this world become Christ's, and He will then rule over them forever, that is, the nations that are left. On that sound of the trumpet is when the 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' Paul taught happen, which is about the resurrection of the dead, and all those on earth being changed to the "spiritual body". That is HOW everyone on earth will be able to see Christ coming in the clouds with great power and glory. We won't see it with the flesh bodies we have now, but in our spiritual bodies when that sudden change happens at an instant. This is what Isaiah 25 is talking about with the vail that is cast over all nations being removed, with death swallowed up in Victory for those in Christ.

None of that has happened yet today, for there are earth changes even associated along with that, even the River of the waters of life being manifested on earth, along with the many trees on either side of that River, bearing the many fruits in their months (Ezek.47). Zechariah 14 shows the nations that are left after Christ's coming destroys the nations that are to come up against Israel in the end of this world, will come and worship Christ

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
(KJV)

I won't go into the actual parable of the fig tree here, but there's a whole lot more information it involves throughout God's Word. It involves the working of the "mystery of iniquity". Our Lord Jesus says here that when you see the fig tree put forth tender leaves, you can easily recognize summer time is near. And so likewise with all these signs, when you begin to see them come to pass, know also the end of this world is near, even at the doors. And the simple opening of a door is what the end will be like at His coming. It will surprise the majority of the world, because it involves a sudden removing of the vail of the Heavenly which still exists today between the earthly and Heavenly, with all being able to see the Heavenly coming of Christ in our spiritual bodies. In the Book of Isaiah it is described as happenning at an instant. That's why Paul used the expression "twinkling of an eye" in 1 Cor.15, fast as one can blink an eye. Thus, the generation Christ was talking about is the generation that will see those signs He gave.

Have we on earth been changed to our spiritual bodies yet? Clearly not. Is Christ literally ruling over all nations on earth with His elect, using that "rod of iron" per the Psalms and Revelation? Clearly not, for only someone in a vegetative state of mind could miss all the evil ones on earth today that are still in control. There are too many signs our Lord Jesus gave in that Matthew 24 chapter that were NEVER FULFILLED TO THIS DAY. To believe all of that was fulfilled spiritually is the same as denying those very signs our Lord Jesus gave His to be watching all the way to the end of this world. And to think that today is Christ's Kingdom manifested on earth is a false doctrine of Christ's enemies, the very ones who are busy setting up their OWN false kingdom on earth today, trying to make it fit what Christ's True Kingdom to come would be like, and that just to deceive poor souls who have not been given to understand God's Word for theirselves.

 

[toddm]

That's a lot to respond to, so I'm not. Plus, you're not telling me anything new.

A few things though that I saw problems w/ in your post:

1) Do you realize that the "end of the world" in Matt. 24:3 doesn't mean the "world" but age or period of time? A better translation is "end of the age", which is much different than the world ending.

2) Saying that the Romans never entered the temple is inaccurate. Titus claimed to be God like Antiochus did from within the temple. Plus, the stones couldn't have been overthrown if the Romans weren't in the temple. The fire melted a lot of the gold and seeped into the spaces between the rocks. In the Roman's effort to loot the gold, they had to toss the bricks. But there are other viewpoints for the abomination that causes desoloation. Epiphanes also sacrificed a pig on the altar, which desecrated the altar. The Jews continued practice of the sacrificial system after Jesus had came would have been as much an abomination (see Isaiah 66:3).

3) The phrase "this generation" is used several times in Matthew. I have never heard anyone argue that "this generation" in every other place in Matthew meant THAT generation, so how can you change it once you get to ch. 24? 'This generation' always refers to Jesus' contemporaries and direct audience in Matthew, what justification do you have for saying that it means something different in ch. 24?

4) If this event in Matt. 24 is supposed to be a global apocalypse, then why are we told to flee to the mountains of Judea? Is there some sort of secret bunker there that is the only safe place for every person around the globe?? Sounds like a local event to me.

5) Most people only seem to really focus on Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, but what about Mark & Luke's accounts? Luke 21:20 talks about when you see armies surrounding Jerusalem, then flee to the mountains of Judea. Again, is this a global event or only local? Luke's account seems to be very specific that this tribulation is falling upon Jerusalem only.

 

[Vic C.]

Antiochus actually fulfilled the Daniel prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" better than the Romans ever did, so why not say Christ came and the end of the world happenned in 170 B.C.?

If this is so, then why did Jesus say this?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Why tell them they will see this if it already happened? Antiochus fits in well concerning some of Daniel's prophecies and visions, but not the latter part of ch. 9. Their continued Temple practices were indeed an abomination against God which warranted the judgment of leaving their "house of worship" desolate and scattered them until a time God feels it's right to gather their remnant once and for al time.

They killed their very own and rejected the One who came to gather them back into the flock. God eventually used their revolt against Rome by using the Romans as tolls of judgment. He had them destroy that which they cherished even more than the One HE send to set the free.

 

[veteran]

Antiochus actually fulfilled the Daniel prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" better than the Romans ever did, so why not say Christ came and the end of the world happenned in 170 B.C.?

If this is so, then why did Jesus say this?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Why tell them they will see this if it already happened? Antiochus fits in well concerning some of Daniel's prophecies and visions, but not the latter part of ch. 9. Their continued Temple practices were indeed an abomination against God which warranted the judgment of leaving their "house of worship" desolate and scattered them until a time God feels it's right to gather their remnant once and for al time.

They killed their very own and rejected the One who came to gather them back into the flock. God eventually used their revolt against Rome by using the Romans as tolls of judgment. He had them destroy that which they cherished even more than the One HE send to set the free.

What you're talking about is another subject, i.e., reasons why God brought a destruction upon 70 A.D. Jerusalem. I was talking about what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 170 B.C., which fit the Daniel prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" BETTER than what the Romans did in 70 A.D. Possibly you're not understanding what the "abomination of desolation" actually is, per Daniel CHAPTER 11, not just chapter 9.

This is what the "vile person" and those under him of the previous Dan.11 verses does...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

The Roman army did not accomplish that placing of the abomination that maketh desolate, for it represents an idol placed inside the temple, WHICH is exactly what Antiochus Epiphanes did do around 240 years prior, and Antiochus even sacrificed swine upon the altar inside the Jerusalem temple. That's what I covered in my previous posts.

Per the Jewish historian Josephus, the Roman general Titus had planned on preserving the Jerusalem temple, but it caught fire and was destroyed before he could sieze it. But not so in the time of Antiochus in 170 B.C., for Antiochus siezed Jerusalem, siezed the temple entact, desolated the temple inside LITERALLY, and setup false idol worship LITERALLY. In other words, the REAL Daniel blueprint of the "abomination of desolation" is not about the idea of destroying the temple, but instead about USING IT FOR FALSE WORSHIP! Big difference between what the Romans did in 70 A.D. Jerusalem by causing its destruction.

Furthermore, the end time picture of a final destruction in Jerusalem when Christ comes is given in Zech.14, which says the Mount of Olives will cleave in two, one part to the north and one part to the south, a great valley being formed there, and the saints gathering there, for that's where Christ's feet are to touch down on earth when He returns. It's also the same location where He ascended to The Father from per Acts 1. And Acts 1 declares further that He shall return in like manner how He ascended into Heaven.

But what happened to the Jews, and even Christians that were in Jerusalem when the Romans came in 70 A.D. and destroyed it? Some went into captivity by the Romans, others fled and were scattered through the nations. Uh, that's the opposite of a gathering to Christ of His saints to the area of the Mount of Olives with Him where He will return to, per Zech.14, and per Matt.24, and many other related Scriptures throughout both the Old and New Testament Books.

And then later what happened in Jerusalem afterwards? Other nations siezed it, like the Mohammedans, crusaders from the Christian west, the Turks, the British, etc. And even today, Jerusalem is still divided between returning Jews and Islam. None of that even today fits how Jerusalem is to be when Christ returns on the last trump with our Lord Jesus gathering us to Him there.

I was raised in a partial-preterist Protestant Church, and was surprised at how few members ever read and understood the detail in Zech.14 of how Christ returns back to this earth, where He ascended to Heaven from. I then eventually discovered it was the doctrine of preterism that had been telling them something else, while not covering that Zechariah 14 example at all. I was surprised at how many there had never even read that Scripture.

 

[TheCatholic]

You should reference your source.

I agree. TC, you know the rules; please state your references.....

Yes. Here it is: http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

 

[veteran]

few things though that I saw problems w/ in your post:

1) Do you realize that the "end of the world" in Matt. 24:3 doesn't mean the "world" but age or period of time? A better translation is "end of the age", which is much different than the world ending.

Sorry I missed your post before...

Yeah, in passing I hinted at how some limit the scope of time Christ's discples asked Him about to 70 A.D. with that Greek word aion (age) translated as "world" in Matt.24:3. Actually, its usage is very correct per God's prophetic timeline. Christ's future Milennium reign that begins at His return is the division between "the heavens and the earth, which are now" that we are still in today vs. the future new heavens and a new earth. The time we're still in today is reserved unto destruction by fire per 2 Peter 3:7-12. And that happens at Christ's returning, and is what ushers us into His "thousand years" reign. Christ's coming and the gathering of His elect is part of the Matthew 24 signs He gave to His disciples, after they asked Him what will be the sign of His coming, and of the end of the world (aion).

So which is rightly dividing Matt.24:3, assigning the time of Christ's return to fit a particular age ('aion') word per men's traditions, or understanding that 'aion' in context of the time of Christ's coming per other events given throughout God's Word? It's fallacy to try and make that word 'aion' fit into a doctrine by itself, for that would be throwing away many other Scripture details about the time of Christ's coming on the day of The Lord which His disciples were linking it to. The word 'aion' is also used in many phrases of "for ever" in the NT. Now that is a contrast in usage if aion only can mean a limited scope of time.

2) Saying that the Romans never entered the temple is inaccurate. Titus claimed to be God like Antiochus did from within the temple. Plus, the stones couldn't have been overthrown if the Romans weren't in the temple. The fire melted a lot of the gold and seeped into the spaces between the rocks. In the Roman's effort to loot the gold, they had to toss the bricks. But there are other viewpoints for the abomination that causes desoloation. Epiphanes also sacrificed a pig on the altar, which desecrated the altar. The Jews continued practice of the sacrificial system after Jesus had came would have been as much an abomination (see Isaiah 66:3).

Per Josephus, the Jewish historian, the Romans did not enter into the inner part of the temple to set up an abomination of desolation. It caught fire beforehand. See Ezekiel 8 for how God views the idea of an abomination in the holy place. It's about idol pagan worship right in the inner temple by those of His people that fall away from Him. And that's the type of abomination our Lord Jesus is talking about when He quoted from Daniel 11.

3) The phrase "this generation" is used several times in Matthew. I have never heard anyone argue that "this generation" in every other place in Matthew meant THAT generation, so how can you change it once you get to ch. 24? 'This generation' always refers to Jesus' contemporaries and direct audience in Matthew, what justification do you have for saying that it means something different in ch. 24?

I'm changing nothing. It's a simple matter of grammar by following the subject of the previous verses. For example, how does this single verse stand on its own grammatically?

Matt 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(KJV)

If a preacher got up behind a pulpit in the 1700's and just read that single verse by itself, what might the unlearned in his congregation think? Many would think he was talking about the generation of his congregation, because there's no other qualifiers given along with it. The next thing they'd probably be asking, is just what are "these things" the preacher is talking about.

But our Lord Jesus did not do that. He gave that verse in relation to the previous verses, even "these things", which DO have qualifiers along with it to establish its timing. And didn't you note "these things" He covered in the previous verses involve His coming and our gathering to Him? How much of The Bible relates to Christ's return? Quite a bit more than just Matthew 24.

4) If this event in Matt. 24 is supposed to be a global apocalypse, then why are we told to flee to the mountains of Judea? Is there some sort of secret bunker there that is the only safe place for every person around the globe?? Sounds like a local event to me.

In relation to Christians in Jerusalem, if the orthodox Jews build another temple and start up the old sacrifices again (as they are planning), and a type like Antiochus comes to end sacrifices, and instead sets himself up in false worship inside that temple, how would our Lord's warning to flee Judea apply? Do you recall what our Lord said about wheresoever the 'carcase' (deceived) is, that's where the eagles will be gathered?

The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today are petitioning help and donations from the Christian Churches in order to bring about the building of another temple. And quite a number of Christian groups have been helping, and even are enamoured with the Holy Land itself, because they know that's where our Lord Jesus is going to return. But if deceived Christian brethren head there specifically when the 'pseudo -Christ' is setup, not understanding the time, then isn't that failing to heed our Lord's warning to flee Judea? We of course will have to wait and see how this all pans out. But what's remarkable is the existence of those signs of deception by some Christian groups today. When have those kind of signs ever existed?

5) Most people only seem to really focus on Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, but what about Mark & Luke's accounts? Luke 21:20 talks about when you see armies surrounding Jerusalem, then flee to the mountains of Judea. Again, is this a global event or only local? Luke's account seems to be very specific that this tribulation is falling upon Jerusalem only.

Read a bit further in Luke 21...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

In Luke 4 our Lord Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah 61:1-2, but closed The Book after the phrase, "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." He then said that had been fulfilled in their ears. That was about His first coming. He didn't finish reading Isaiah 61:2, about "the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." It's because that part is about His second coming, to fight with His great army, against whom? The Roman army of 70 A.D.? No.

What about the nation alignment of Ezekiel 38, and that great northern army that's to come up against Israel in the very end? That nation alignment is almost complete today, our century being the only time in world history it has developed to where it is today. God showed in Ezekiel 39 Israel will burying that army's dead for seven months after He destroys it. And then Ezekiel 40 forward is about Christ's Milennium.

We know per Revelation there's to be a great earthquake there in Judea when Christ returns, the same one of Zechariah 14 that will cleave the Mount of Olives in two. We know there's to be 7,000 immediately destroyed in Jerusalem. And then all the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of The Father and The Son. (Rev.11) The day of God's vengenance is about His cup of wrath being poured upon His enemies, His consuming fire that will destroy the armies that come upon against Jerusalem at the very end. Zechariah 14 even gives a gorry-like detail about the kind of plague they'll suffer...

Zech 14:12-16
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)
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[RND]

Great Bible study video to clarify the discussion:

Secret Rapture Origin & The Beast That Gives the Mark

 

[TheCatholic]

[youtube:2ddwn55j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYdC33Ulh4w&feature=PlayList&p=C626D3E1EA3E26B2&index=14[/youtube:2ddwn55j]