The Rapture

[john darling]

1. Take a concordance and go through every reference to "the holy city". It is always a reference to Jerusalem on earth, never to the Church.

Well then it's a difference in how we choose to interpret the information. But what I see is a pretty clear connection between being "trodden under foot for 3.5 years" and Daniel prophesying that the Beast will "wear out the saints of the most high for 42 months (3.5 years)".

There is a good reason why the prophecy uses different measurements to describe the same period of time (i.e. 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days) so consistently. It's to avoid confusion.

Besides, God isn't interested in cities and buildings anymore. He's done with all that. God lives in the people now; the body of believers. They are the Holy city. The reason why the physical Jerusalem is referred to as Sodom is because people keep putting their faith in the building rather than God.

2. There are two segments of 3 1/2 years to Daniel's 70th week. In the first half the Antichrist (the Beast) takes full control of this earth and sets up the Abomination of Desolation.

Agreed

In the second half, God pours out the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals. That is the Great Tribulation

I'm not sure if you meant to say "poured" or if thats a typo. If you meant to say it then you're really lost me. There are 7 trumpets of the great tribulation and 7 vials of wrath (which are referred to as being poured out).

Did you see the time line I posted, where an angel in Daniel talks about the days of this final 7 year period? At 1290 remaining until the end, the sacrifices in the newly rebuilt temple cease (Dan 12:11). The angel also says that from that time there will be 1335 days until the end of the wrath (Dan 12:12). That means that, from the time Jesus comes back for his people (at the end of this 1290 day period) to the end of the wrath (the 7 vials being poured out) will be 45 days. The last vial is the battle of Armageddon itself. The beginning of this battle is described in Rev 19 where all the saints (who were gathered together at the end of that 1290 day period the angel in Daniel referenced) will return to earth along with Jesus for the battle.

The tribulation and wrath are two distinct situations for two distinct groups of people. The tribulation is for the whole world, including the saints. The wrath is specifically for those who refused to repent, after the saints are raptured from the world. The time line in Daniel, matched up with the time periods given in the Revelation for specific events, matched up with the references from Jesus and Paul about the trumpets and a description of what the return would be like all conform to this interpretation with no need to force any of it.

However, after the Great Tribulation, Christ will redeem and restore this city just as He redeems and restores Israel before the Millenium. It will indeed become "the holy city" in reality.

Whatever will become of the physical city after the tribulation had nothing to do with my argument. But I will suggest that you seem to have a preoccupation with the physical city which gives the impression that you are more concerned with the importance of the buildings than you are with the spiritual implications behind putting so much importance in buildings. I think this may be causing some distractions for you.

When Jesus was around, he made remarks about the temple which indicated the HE is the important temple, and that the physical building would be destroyed. He said this at a time when his disciples were admiring the temple and he rather casually talked about how completely it would be destroyed. At his execution the only thing the witnesses could agree on to accuse him of was that he made disparaging remarks about the temple.

And of course when he died he said "it is finished" and at the same time the thick curtain in the holy of holies was miraculously torn in two by God himself. The temple had become obsolete. Jesus and his body of believers are the new temple.

 

[reba]

Please remember while posting.... There are different views on end times that fall into our Statement of Faith.. Please respect other members views , Disagree yup for sure but keep it respectful...
pre.... mid.... post trib... are all ok here... post trib includes partial preterism..

This post is not directed at any one .. it is posted because the activity is up. thanks reba

2.4: . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Malachi]

Besides, God isn't interested in cities and buildings anymore. He's done with all that.

False. So show us where God has no interest in cities and buildings on earth or even the city New Jerusalem?

God lives in the people now; the body of believers.

True

They are the Holy city.

False. Once again, it is not how you personally interpret this phrase but how God interprets it. Check your concordance.

The reason why the physical Jerusalem is referred to as Sodom is because people keep putting their faith in the building rather than God.

False. Sodom speaks of sexual perversion and wickedness. Egypt speaks of the world, worldliness, and the world systems.

 

[jasonc]

False. So show us where God has no interest in cities and buildings on earth or even the city New Jerusalem?

True

False. Once again, it is not how you personally interpret this phrase but how God interprets it. Check your concordance.

False. Sodom speaks of sexual perversion and wickedness. Egypt speaks of the world, worldliness, and the world systems.

what city is called that spiritual Sodom and gommorah and also Is where the Lord is crucified?

 

[reba]

Lets change words like false and true to something like i agree or i disagree...
One members theology is not held above another's in this forums.
The guide lines for these forums are the TOS and SOF... Admin

 

[Malachi]

what city is called that spiritual Sodom and gommorah and also Is where the Lord is crucified?

Correct. See post #21.

 

[jasonc]

Correct. See post #21.

uhm that makes isreal part of the beast and well not exactly one he would attack. satan doesn't attack his own usually. he might have men turn on each other. that is debatable as we could say that he does hate jews but however. spiritual Sodom does some thing that jesus said the Pharisees would have blood on their hands. is isreal in the trib going to kill Christians?

 

[john darling]

False. So show us where God has no interest in cities and buildings on earth or even the city New Jerusalem?

Hi Malachi. I did give some example in toward the end of my last post. Can you comment on those? Also, I'm not sure why you keep confusing the issue, but I'll clarify again that my comments were not about the New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven, but rather the physical city of Jerusalem which hosts the physical temple. They are two separate issues.

False. Once again, it is not how you personally interpret this phrase but how God interprets it. Check your concordance.

None of us has absolute understanding of all truth. Some teachings are easier to interpret than others. Sometimes we get it right and sometimes we get it wrong but usually it's a mixture of the two.

Sometimes a prophecy can have more than one meaning, too. It's like that with references to the holy city and the temple. For example, in the Daniel 9 prophecy (70 weeks) it talks about a prince making an agreement with many for one week. Jesus is a prince, but so too is Satan referred to as the "prince of this world". For the Jews, all they really want is their temple since it's the only place they can sacrifice for their sins. Their desire for this temple is, to this day, a continued rejection of Jesus and his Kingdom.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to build the temple in Jerusalem (though he won't care about the religious aspect, he'll just be looking to amass power), Jesus makes an agreement with his followers by organizing them into his temple of 12 tribes. Two different meanings for the same prophecy.

The parallel continues when it talks about the desecration on the temple in the middle of the week. This will most likely have some physical fulfillment on the literal building, but it also coincides with the Beast making war against the saints for the same period of time; the holy city being trod underfoot for 42 months. The Beast making war with the saints for 42 months etc...

False. Sodom speaks of sexual perversion and wickedness.

If you look at Matthew 24 and Luke 17 you'll see that, in Jesus' references to Sodom, there is no mention of sexual sins. He talks about eating and drinking. planting and building. Marrying and giving in marriage. All ordinary, average activities in daily life and yet Jesus listed them as the reasons for why Sodom was destroyed. And yeah, there probably was a lot of sexual immorality, but I think Jesus wanted to make the issue more clear. It's easy to condemn others on the basis of their obvious sin, like sexual immorality, but Jesus could see something more. The people of Sodom were just too busy with the cares of this world to care about what God wanted. That's why they were destroyed.

Something similar happens when it comes to Holy buildings. People become distracted by the building and stop caring about what God wants.

 

[n2thelight]

The propaganda against the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church generally comes out as "the 'secret' rapture theory", implying that there is something sinister and also something unscriptural about it.

So notice that the same people believe that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles, all having the indwelling Holy Spirit) and God the Holy Spirit Himself -- will exist simultaneously on earth while Satan (through the Antichrist) takes TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the world for 3 1/2 years -- forty two months (Rev 13:7,8,12-17)!

Think about it and behold the absurdity of this idea. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on earth, Satan is held down -- restrained and rebuked -- by the very fact of their existence on earth. That is what allows the Gospel to be preached and God's Kingdom to be established in human hearts.

Under God's sovereignty, the Devil is allowed a degree of freedom and control today, but never TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL as seen in Rev 13. That is proof that the Church and the Holy Spirit are in Heaven after the Rapture when he takes control, and all restraint on the Evil One is temporarily removed for a season.

Therefore it says in 2 Thess 2:7 "only He who now letteth [Gk katecho = holds down, holds fast, withholds, or restrains] will let, until He be taken out of the way". Who can this Person be who restrains and holds down Satan today? It can be none other than God the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way the whole world will indeed be deceived by Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

Therein lies your problem,the Holy Spirit is not holding satan,Michael is............

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

 

[JLB]

The propaganda against the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church generally comes out as "the 'secret' rapture theory", implying that there is something sinister and also something unscriptural about it.

So notice that the same people believe that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles, all having the indwelling Holy Spirit) and God the Holy Spirit Himself -- will exist simultaneously on earth while Satan (through the Antichrist) takes TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the world for 3 1/2 years -- forty two months (Rev 13:7,8,12-17)!

Think about it and behold the absurdity of this idea. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on earth, Satan is held down -- restrained and rebuked -- by the very fact of their existence on earth. That is what allows the Gospel to be preached and God's Kingdom to be established in human hearts.

Under God's sovereignty, the Devil is allowed a degree of freedom and control today, but never TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL as seen in Rev 13. That is proof that the Church and the Holy Spirit are in Heaven after the Rapture when he takes control, and all restraint on the Evil One is temporarily removed for a season.

Therefore it says in 2 Thess 2:7 "only He who now letteth [Gk katecho = holds down, holds fast, withholds, or restrains] will let, until He be taken out of the way". Who can this Person be who restrains and holds down Satan today? It can be none other than God the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way the whole world will indeed be deceived by Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

Sorry brother,

It is God Himself, by the Holy Spirit that sends this strong delusion to those who refuse to love the truth.

God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12


The Lord will not Come back until after this takes place and literally and physically destroy the antichrist Himself.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


The Resurrection/Rapture will occur at His coming, which is after the the antichrist is revealed and is allowed to do his work.


Jesus only returns once and remains here when He comes.

He will appear a second time,...

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB

 

[john darling]

Under God's sovereignty, the Devil is allowed a degree of freedom and control today, but never TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL as seen in Rev 13. That is proof that the Church and the Holy Spirit are in Heaven after the Rapture when he takes control, and all restraint on the Evil One is temporarily removed for a season

Nah, this isn't proof of pre-trib rapture, because this thing about absolute and total control is a subjective interpretation which you are adding to the text. God gave Satan power over Job's family, his property and his body, but he still didn't have absolute control. Job still had a choice on how to respond to his difficult situation. God was still the one allowing Satan to run amok.

It will be like that in the tribulation as well. Christians will be tried, but we'll still have a choice to resist. So will everyone. That's why God gives us the warning about rejecting the Mark and rejecting worship of the Beast. He's only got as much control as we allow him to have.

 

[jasonc]

uhm Jerusalem is NOT the only place they can offer for their sins. after 70 ad up to a few decades after the bar khoba revolt, jews offered sacrifices. the temples of zerrubabel and herod (two different temples) didn't have the ark and didn't have the HOLY of HOLIES as the Solomon temple did. besides uhm atonement for some sins would be really grievious. the law was a burden in some aspects but not so grievous that one couldn't atone by it.

 

[john darling]

uhm Jerusalem is NOT the only place they can offer for their sins. after 70 ad up to a few decades after the bar khoba revolt, jews offered sacrifices.

I'm not sure if I understand your meaning here. If the temple in Jerusalem was still around, would the Jews still be able to offer sacrifices for their sins at these other temples, or are they using these other temples as a stop-gap measure because they don't have the Jerusalem temple?

If you're suggesting that sacrificing at these other temples is a normal part of sacrificial routine then it'd be helpful if you could provide some contextual scriptural support. The rest of your post I couldn't understand. Sorry.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure if I understand your meaning here. If the temple in Jerusalem was still around, would the Jews still be able to offer sacrifices for their sins at these other temples, or are they using these other temples as a stop-gap measure because they don't have the Jerusalem temple?

If you're suggesting that sacrificing at these other temples is a normal part of sacrificial routine then it'd be helpful if you could provide some contextual scriptural support. The rest of your post I couldn't understand. Sorry.

there was a temple in Egypt. its mentioned in Isiah 19. its called the elaphatine temple.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt1.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html

For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Second Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.

it was during the bar khoba revolt that they offered again and some time after. I will have to ask about the fact that to repent of sins you would have to travel to the temple. I think that is to get close to god, not to be forgiven.

if you we are going to look at what they did , I tend to ask the jews, they lived it, we didn't. if notice YOU have to own livestock, how many times do we sin daily? and not all the offerings cover all the sins. is lying covered in all contexts? no that is for a crime only, ie a person stole and you lie to get him to pay , but what if you lied about something else?

 

[john darling]

Anyway, the point of bringing up the temple in the first place was to show how there are two interpretations when talking about the "temple" or the "holy city". One is the literal, physical temple/city and the other is the spiritual interpretation that the body of believers are God's temple now.

This applied in two different ways to prophecy concerning the return of Jesus. One was the concern Kathi raised, about how there is no mention of the church in Rev 6-18. I suggested that the reference to the holy city being trod under foot for 42 months was a reference to the church which correlated to the followers of Jesus being persecuted and given divine protection for 42 months during the tribulation, from Rev 12. So there are at least 2 references here to the church. This also correlates to prophecy from Daniel for that same period of time which describes the saints being persecuted for 42 months (Dan 7:21,25 Dan). The phrase "time and times and the dividing of times is commonly understood to mean 3.5 years or 42 months.

The second application is to make clear the spiritual implications of putting our faith in buildings rather than God. This becomes clear from the 70 weeks prophecy from Dan 9. The Jews make an agreement with a prince (the AC) to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem, thus once again rejecting Jesus in favor of a physical building, while Jesus makes an agreement to build his temple of believers into 12 tribes of 12k.

Here are a couple more verses to confirm what I've been suggesting about the holy city being the believers rather than a physical place.

REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REV 21:9 ... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
REV 21:10 ... and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

The "bride of Christ" is the body of believers.

Here is a comment from Jesus on buildings:
LK 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

Here is what Paul had to say about buildings:
ACTS 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Here are stephen's comments on buildings, just before he was stoned for them...
ACTS 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
ACTS 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
ACTS 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
ACTS 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Yes, the church will be around for the tribulation.