The resurrection

[Larry H]

We are responsible for our actions, for example we can be tempted but not commit the sin.

Just a thought. Are "we" responsible for our actions or are we held responsible for our actions?

We are responsible for our own actions, and we are held responsible for the outcome. Matthew 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Good scripture for WIP’s question, I might add, “but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown gives birth to death†James 1:14,15

THE NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not anymore; YLT

There appears to be literalism and symbolism in the same verse. For example there will be a literal New Heavens and Earth, but how can it survive without water. “No more seaâ€

If the New heavens and earth are filled with only the righteous why would John say concerning the city,†Nothing impure will ever enter it, [New Heaven and Earth] nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life†Revelation 21:27

 

[Larry H]

Matthew 22:30 say, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage” Isaiah 65:17 says, "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth”
Concerning the new earth, sinless paradise, it speaks of childbearing.Isaiah 65:30, 23 If we take these scripture literally, from Matthew and Isaiah,it suggests there will be children out of wedlock. Since there is no contradiction in scripture how do you view this?

 

[reba]

Regarding a second chance, some have not received a first chance...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How many of those in China, four thousand years ago, have heard that name?

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Larry H]

Regarding a second chance, some have not received a first chance...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How many of those in China, four thousand years ago, have heard that name?

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I agree reba there is not going to be a second chance salvation plan.

Hebrews 4:7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today , when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today , if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

However I think Jehovah can take the umbrella of Christ and put in over anyone he pleases to.

Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

20 But who are you, O man,to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Whydid you make me like this?'"

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

A friend once told me there is going to be many surprises at the resurrection. As one writer expressed it:We see the outworking of God's plan now as a person viewing a beautiful tapestry from the backside. It appears not to make any complete pattern, with a colored thread running this way, and another color another way, etc. But when we get to see it from the heavenly view, the front side, as Christ does now,and as his followers will see later, it is a beautiful, intricate and excellently designed pattern.

 

[Larry H]

Regarding a second chance, some have not received a first chance...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How many of those in China, four thousand years ago, have heard that name?

Do you believe those who never heard get a chance at that point? I don't see anything in Scripture that warrants that personally, though again I don't think God tortures them forever if they didn't never heard.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There is a common misconception today that God is desparately trying to save everyone and the Devil is trying to send them to hell. This is the Great Controversy doctrine of the SDAs. It is a false doctrine as the above passage in Romans shows.

God views time much differently than we do and He has the luxury of resurrecting the dead to life again. This is something we cannot do, anyhoo, connect the above with a passage in Ezekiel...

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

This is a physical resurrection of a people who have not had an opportunity for salvation. Let's read carefully what does God say next...

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

These are dead people, they have lived once, died and been buried. Have they had a chance at salvation? Remember what we read in Romans...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Not the first resurrection, that consists of those who are Christ's at His coming...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

God says He will put His Spirit in them, the Holy Spirit, and they shall live. So we see this is not the resurrection to damnation...

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is a resurrection to physical life...

Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

But with the addition of the Holy Spirit, something ancient Israel never had...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

And they did not. The did not enter the rest pictured in Hebrews 4, but they will have a chance to. This chance happens at the end of the Millenium.

I don’tthink Ezekiel’s vision was seen to prove a physical resurrection when we die.It was speaking of Israel condition. The vision is a representation of the whole house of Israel in the dust of the earth, metaphorically speaking.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, THESE BONES ARE THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.'

Isaiah 52::1 Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. SHAKE OFF YOUR DUST; RISE UP, SIT ENTHRONED,O JERUSALEM.FREE YOURSELF FROM THE CHAINS ON YOUR NECK, O captive Daughter of Zion.

Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O SLEEPER, RISE FROM THE DEAD,and Christ will shine on you."

The same verbal communication is used by the Christ to show the intensity of a condition.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees,you hypocrites! You are like white washed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside BUT ON THE INSIDE ARE FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES and everything unclean.

The condition of a sinner is compare to death

Ephesians 2:11 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

This imagery runs rapid through scripture. Matthew 8:22 Luke15:24 Luke 15:32 John 5:21 2 Corinthians 5:14 Ephesians 2:5 Ephesians 4:18 Ephesians 5:14 1 Timothy 5:6 1 John 3:14 Revelation 3:1

Something to ponder

“There is not anywhere a more explicit proof of depravity than this, and no stronger language can be used. They were "dead" inrelation to that to which they afterward became alive-i.e., to holiness.” AlbertBarnes

DEATH is often used by all writers, and in all nations, toexpress a state of extreme misery. The Ephesians, by trespassing and sinning,had brought themselves into a state of deplorable wretchedness, as had all the pagan nations; Adam Clarke's

 

[John 8:32]

Regarding a second chance, some have not received a first chance...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How many of those in China, four thousand years ago, have heard that name?

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ah, yes, one can see from creation the character of God. Will that bring one to saving faith? If that is the case, then it nullifies this principle...

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

'Well, they should have known better.' Somehow, I don't think that applies...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It sounds good to take that one verse out of context and say they should have known better, but it is incongruous with many other passages. And we still read this...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now if that name can be discovered by examining creation, why did the Apostles risk their lives and suffer great persecution to preach Christ? People could have figured it out for themselves. How does one determine there is redemption through Christ just by the creation?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But if one can come to saving knowledge apart from the name of Christ, what in the world is the mission of the church?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Larry H]

THE NATURE OF GOD ON JUDGMENT DAY ON THE RESURRECTION DAY

I find it sad today there are many Christians walking around thinking they got it made with God because of their faith. Just like the Jew Old thinking because they were Jewish they had it made. Kind of puts God in a box! HE CAN TAKE THE UMBRELLA OF CHRIST AND PUT IT OVER ANYONE HE CARES TO.“For God does not show favoritism” Consider the following. “But IF YOU SHOW FAVORITISM, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers” “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress”

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the LAW ARE WRITTENON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) "This will take place on the day when GOD WILL JUDGE MEN'S SECRETS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, as my gospel declares".

“THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE APPOINTED TIME; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to lightwhat is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

KEEP THIS IN MIND GOD KNOWS US BETTER THAN WE KNOW OURSELVES

As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

“Therefore God has mercy on WHOM HE WANTS TO HAVE MERCY and he hardens whom he wants to harden BUT WHO ARE YOU, O MAN, TO TALK BACK TO GOD?

I believe there is going to be many surprises on judgment day!

The only true advantage is Christians know the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. If that is not enough blessings I don’t know what is. Remember the trust of Paul’s message was to the first century boasting Jews. May God have mercy on the church!

 

[Larry H]

Let me see if I understand the scenario. All humanity must die and stand before the judgment seat. Those who proved themselves favorable through the death of Christ return to the new earth. Does this include others for another chance, second chance, to accept Jesus? There will also be those who reign with Christ over the new earth.

Revelation 20:4 Isaw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimonyfor Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast orhis image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. Theycame to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Hi Before Time,

This is a concept that comes from the Old Testament even into the New, in Daniel 12 for example it speaks about the dead rising from the dust and some entering into eternal life and some awaking to eternal contempt. The a common understanding in Scripture was the creation of man, when Adam was created he was formed from the dust and then God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and then he became a living soul. When man died, his body returned to the dust and the breath that God gave is withdrawn and returns to God.

The Body we will be raised with, though it will be very similar to the one we lived with in this life, it will bear the image not of the man of dust.. the first Adam.. but rather the man of Heaven, Jesus Christ. When we see him, we will be like him, as he was when he was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven, the same body, yet clothed in glory and immortality.

In regards to whether or not people get a second chance, I do not believe so, in a court scenario today those guilty don't get a second chance to say they're sorry and repent. To come before the throne is to receive Justice for what was done in the body in this life, therefore what we choose now is most important.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

Hi Doulos Iesou

From what I’m getting from you and others is that Jesus will return to the earth in a physical body, and rule in an earthly kingdom. The world will eventually be a sinless paradise where the meek live. There will be no death, no pain etc. for the living righteous. However there will be no second chance salvation plan.

The earthly creation is a testimony of God so there will be no excuses in the future for the unbeliever. It doesn’t matter if they heard the Gospel message, there will be no mercy. The Old Testament scriptures suggesting a physical resurrection should all be taken literally. Even the animal creation will be a peace with one another.

Jesus came in His first advent, than died, resurrected in a physical body. Return to heaven with that same body. And will return to earth with that same body, but immortal. Is he in heaven now with a physical body? My thoughts are different on the above scenario, but I am interest on what the brothers believe here.

Larry

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulos Iesou

From what I’m getting from you and others is that Jesus will return to the earth in a physical body, and rule in an earthly kingdom. The world will eventually be a sinless paradise where the meek live. There will be no death, no pain etc. for the living righteous. However there will be no second chance salvation plan.

The earthly creation is a testimony of God so there will be no excuses in the future for the unbeliever. It doesn’t matter if they heard the Gospel message, there will be no mercy. The Old Testament scriptures suggesting a physical resurrection should all be taken literally. Even the animal creation will be a peace with one another.

Jesus came in His first advent, than died, resurrected in a physical body. Return to heaven with that same body. And will return to earth with that same body, but immortal. Is he in heaven now with a physical body? My thoughts are different on the above scenario, but I am interest on what the brothers believe here.

Larry

Right now Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Also, what you have said in this post is an accurate representation, the resurrection of Jesus was a literal bodily resurrection as will ours.

 

[John 8:32]

Let me see if I understand the scenario. All humanity must die and stand before the judgment seat. Those who proved themselves favorable through the death of Christ return to the new earth. Does this include others for another chance, second chance, to accept Jesus? There will also be those who reign with Christ over the new earth.

Revelation 20:4 Isaw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimonyfor Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast orhis image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. Theycame to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Hi Before Time,

This is a concept that comes from the Old Testament even into the New, in Daniel 12 for example it speaks about the dead rising from the dust and some entering into eternal life and some awaking to eternal contempt. The a common understanding in Scripture was the creation of man, when Adam was created he was formed from the dust and then God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and then he became a living soul. When man died, his body returned to the dust and the breath that God gave is withdrawn and returns to God.

The Body we will be raised with, though it will be very similar to the one we lived with in this life, it will bear the image not of the man of dust.. the first Adam.. but rather the man of Heaven, Jesus Christ. When we see him, we will be like him, as he was when he was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven, the same body, yet clothed in glory and immortality.

In regards to whether or not people get a second chance, I do not believe so, in a court scenario today those guilty don't get a second chance to say they're sorry and repent. To come before the throne is to receive Justice for what was done in the body in this life, therefore what we choose now is most important.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

Hi Doulos Iesou

Answering for myself, not speaking for DI.

From what I’m getting from you and others is that Jesus willreturn to the earth in a physical body,

No, He returns in His glorified state as a Spirit.

and rule in an earthly kingdom.

The Kingdom is the Kingdom of God that rules over both the Spirit realm and the physical real.

The worldwill eventually be a sinless paradise where the meek live.

For 1000 years it will be a world that has humans living in it, but with the Devil securely incarcerated, sin will be much less frequent, but nevertheless, still occuring.

There will be nodeath, no pain etc. for the living righteous.

This occurs AFTER the Millenium, after the Great White Throne Judgment with the New Heavens and New Earth, 1100 years after His return.

However there will be no secondchance salvation plan.

There is NO second chance. However, if God were gracious enough to give a second chance or a third, would it anger you? It angers some and that seems odd to me. If a second chance would save someone from eternal death, so what? Bottom line: There is one opportunity and only one opportunity for salvation, so all of our supposes and $1.79 will get us a coffee at Mickey D's.

The earthly creation is a testimony of God so there will beno excuses in the future for the unbeliever.

I disagree, when God has blinded a person, how is it that they have had, in full knowledge, their opportunity for salvation? Hence the second resurrection of Rev 20:11-12

It doesn’t matter if they heardthe Gospel message for those looking for mercy.

I will quote a scripture for this one...

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The Old Testament scripturesare suggesting a physical resurrection and should all be taken literally.

There is a physical resurrection for those who have died without ever hearing the truth of God and it is literal.

Eventhe animal creation will be a peace with one another.

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus came in His first advent, than died and wasresurrected in a physical body.

He was resurrected back to being the Word, being God. This is who He was in the beginning. Who He was, is and ever will be.

Return to heaven with that same body. And willreturn to earth with that same body, but immortal. Is he in heaven now with aphysical body?

No...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He is God.

My thoughts are different on the above scenario, but I aminterest on what the brothers believe here.

Larry

Now you know my thoughts.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No, He returns in His glorified state as a Spirit.

Hmm.. this is very bad..

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

The verb for coming is ἐρχόμενον, is in the present participle which describes the humanness and manhood of Christ still being manifested even after his Resurrection.

The text that you have confusing your theology is 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

This is an allusion to Genesis 2:7, where God breathed the "breath of life" (the word for breath being the same as "spirit") into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living soul. Jesus, now has come to represent that very breath of life, that when we die is withdrawn, but indeed will be given back in the Resurrection to our physical bodies, and will then put on immortality and glory.

Jesus is not some disembodied spirit who no longer carries the wounds of his crucifixion, he is the God-man, truly human and truly God. He will forever, represent the purest image of God adorned in human flesh, the first born among many brethren.

 

[John 8:32]

No, He returns in His glorified state as a Spirit.

Hmm.. this is very bad..

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

First time as the perfect sacrifice for sin. He returns as God.

The verb for coming is ἐρχόμενον, is in the present participle which describes the humanness and manhood of Christ still being manifested even after his Resurrection.

The text that you have confusing your theology is 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

This is an allusion to Genesis 2:7, where God breathed the "breath of life" (the word for breath being the same as "spirit") into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living soul. Jesus, now has come to represent that very breath of life, that when we die is withdrawn, but indeed will be given back in the Resurrection to our physical bodies, and will then put on immortality and glory.

Jesus is not some disembodied spirit who no longer carries the wounds of his crucifixion, he is the God-man, truly human and truly God. He will forever, represent the purest image of God adorned in human flesh, the first born among many brethren.

I don't agree, He is no longer flesh...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He is glorified...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

First Adam was Adam in the garden
Last Adam is Christ - A quickening SPIRIT.

Time frame of the above?

The time of His return, the time of the resurrection. At that time He is a quickening Spirit.

quickening:

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

He returns as a life giving Spirit.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

First time as the perfect sacrifice for sin. He returns as God.

He has ALWAYS been God, he came as God and will come again as God.

I don't agree, He is no longer flesh...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He is glorified...

He has a physical glorified body, note he has feet, he has hair, he has eyes. Does a Spirit have those things? He also laid his hand upon John, can a spirit physically touch and interact with physicality?

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

First Adam was Adam in the garden
Last Adam is Christ - A quickening SPIRIT.

Time frame of the above?

The time of His return, the time of the resurrection. At that time He is a quickening Spirit.

quickening:

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

He returns as a life giving Spirit.

He returns to be the BREATH OF LIFE, Jesus is the Resurrection and the life! He is not some "spirit" but rather he will be the one who will breath the breath of life back into our bodies and cloth us in immorality and glory so that we will be like him. Your citation of Strong's concordance doesn't do anything to refute my position at all.

 

[John 8:32]

First time as the perfect sacrifice for sin. He returns as God.

He has ALWAYS been God, he came as God and will come again as God.

John 1:1-3 The God that Moses saw?

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Yet the disciples and all Jewry and the Romans looked at His face when He was a man on earth.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I don't think that happened during the first coming.

I don't agree, He is no longer flesh...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He is glorified...

He has a physical glorified body, note he has feet, he has hair, he has eyes. Does a Spirit have those things?

Whose image are we made in?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Yep, a spirit has those things.

He also laid his hand upon John, can a spirit physically touch and interact with physicality?

How limited do you suppose God is? He can do ANYTHING. Just another little thought here, the book of Revelation was given to John IN A VISION on the Aisle of Patmos

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

First Adam was Adam in the garden
Last Adam is Christ - A quickening SPIRIT.

Time frame of the above?

The time of His return, the time of the resurrection. At that time He is a quickening Spirit.

quickening:

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

He returns as a life giving Spirit.

He returns to be the BREATH OF LIFE, Jesus is the Resurrection and the life! He is not some "spirit" but rather he will be the one who will breath the breath of life back into our bodies and cloth us in immorality and glory so that we will be like him. Your citation of Strong's concordance doesn't do anything to refute my position at all.

Not sure where you get this, it doesn't say we are resurrected with physical bodies...

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now if Christ is the firstborn among many brethren, how is it He was raised in a physical body and we are raised in a spiritual body?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

John 1:1-3 The God that Moses saw?

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Yet the disciples and all Jewry and the Romans looked at His face when He was a man on earth.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I don't think that happened during the first coming.

Of course it's the preincarnate Jesus.

You're also GREATLY misunderstanding 2 Thessalonians 2:8

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. (ESV Translation)

This isn't referring to Jesus' mouth being a spirit's mouth, he is saying that the BREATH of his mouth will kill.

Whose image are we made in?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Yep, a spirit has those things.

You're also misunderstanding what an "image" was in ancient times, it's not saying we are created with similar physicality.

I'm not even going to bother moving on, you're in heresy, and of course it's related to Gnosticism.

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23(ESV)

God is going to redeem creation (the physical realm) as well as our bodies (physical bodies) in the new creation and isn't doing away with it for some "spiritual" disembodied existence. To deny the physical resurrection and coming of Jesus is heresy, such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7(ESV)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7(ESV)

Once again, your translation is different from all others.
It's like trying to debate with someone using a watchtower bible.
It should read, "who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh".
We can see that is past tense.

Using that Bible of yours, no wonder you have such wild ideas.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Once again, your translation is different from all others.
It's like trying to debate with someone using a watchtower bible.
It should read, "who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh".
We can see that is past tense.

Using that Bible of yours, no wonder you have such wild ideas.

You are aware I was citing the English Standard Version, one of the most common Bible Translations in use today. To compare it to the New World Translation (Jehovah Witness's use this) is arrogant and ill-informed.

The word order is not as important (especially in the Greek) what is important is that the Greek word ἔρχομαι is in the present participle which denotes the verb having a state of continuity.

That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh (Ἰησουν Χριστον ἐρχομενον ἐν σαρκι [Iēsoun Christon erchomenon en sarki]). “Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.” Present middle participle of ἐρχομαι [erchomai] treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied.

Robertson, A. (1933). Word Pictures in the New Testament (2 Jn 7). Nashville, TN: Broadman Press.

Is come (ἐχόμενον). Wrong. The verb is in the present participle, coming, which describes the manhood of Christ as still being manifested. See on 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ἐληλυθότα has come. Rev., that Jesus Christ cometh. So in 1 These. 1:10, τῆς ὀργῆς τῆς ἐρχομένης is the wrath which is coming; which has already begun its movement and is advancing: not merely, as A. V., the wrath to come, which makes it wholly a future event. See on lingereth, 2 Pet. 2:3.

Vincent, M. R. (1887). Vol. 2: Word studies in the New Testament (395). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.

“Is come” is a present participle in the Greek text. There is no article before the word “flesh.” The emphasis is upon character or manner. The prepositional phrase qualifies the coming as a flesh-coming. The word “flesh” refers, not to the totally-depraved nature, but to the physical body and human life with its human limitations. The denial here is that of the incarnation, not specifically of the First and Second Advent, although both are included in the apostle’s thought, but of the fact of an Advent of Deity at all, of an incorporation by Deity of human nature. Here we have Unitarianism with a vengeance again.

Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English reader (2 Jn 7). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

You see, the use of the present participle verb "coming" was integral to John's refutation of the 1st Century Docetic Gnostics. The very thing I am refuting and yet you insult me by saying that I have, "wild ideas." This wild idea is an ESSENTIAL OF THE FAITH, those who reject this are "deceivers and antichrists" (those who deny the father and the son). So are you defending this heresy? That Jesus lost his humanity after the resurrection?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Once again, your translation is different from all others.
It's like trying to debate with someone using a watchtower bible.
It should read, "who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh".
We can see that is past tense.

Using that Bible of yours, no wonder you have such wild ideas.

You are aware I was citing the English Standard Version, one of the most common Bible Translations in use today. To compare it to the New World Translation (Jehovah Witness's use this) is arrogant and ill-informed.

The word order is not as important (especially in the Greek) what is important is that the Greek word ἔρχομαι is in the present participle which denotes the verb having a state of continuity.

That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh (Ἰησουν Χριστον ἐρχομενον ἐν σαρκι [Iēsoun Christon erchomenon en sarki]). “Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.” Present middle participle of ἐρχομαι [erchomai] treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied.

Robertson, A. (1933). Word Pictures in the New Testament (2 Jn 7). Nashville, TN: Broadman Press.

Is come (ἐχόμενον). Wrong. The verb is in the present participle, coming, which describes the manhood of Christ as still being manifested. See on 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ἐληλυθότα has come. Rev., that Jesus Christ cometh. So in 1 These. 1:10, τῆς ὀργῆς τῆς ἐρχομένης is the wrath which is coming; which has already begun its movement and is advancing: not merely, as A. V., the wrath to come, which makes it wholly a future event. See on lingereth, 2 Pet. 2:3.

Vincent, M. R. (1887). Vol. 2: Word studies in the New Testament (395). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.

“Is come” is a present participle in the Greek text. There is no article before the word “flesh.” The emphasis is upon character or manner. The prepositional phrase qualifies the coming as a flesh-coming. The word “flesh” refers, not to the totally-depraved nature, but to the physical body and human life with its human limitations. The denial here is that of the incarnation, not specifically of the First and Second Advent, although both are included in the apostle’s thought, but of the fact of an Advent of Deity at all, of an incorporation by Deity of human nature. Here we have Unitarianism with a vengeance again.

Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English reader (2 Jn 7). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

You see, the use of the present participle verb "coming" was integral to John's refutation of the 1st Century Docetic Gnostics. The very thing I am refuting and yet you insult me by saying that I have, "wild ideas." This wild idea is an ESSENTIAL OF THE FAITH, those who reject this are "deceivers and antichrists" (those who deny the father and the son). So are you defending this heresy? That Jesus lost his humanity after the resurrection?

You lost me again but I'm not quitting.
Someday I might understand you and then I will know if I will agree with you. Until then, I stand where I am.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You lost me again but I'm not quitting.
Someday I might understand you and then I will know if I will agree with you. Until then, I stand where I am.

Perhaps you should seek first to understand.. then to be understood. When you come out, not fully understanding what I am saying and then say that I have "wild ideas" and use Bible translations that are liken unto the New Word Translation, it doesn't necessarily make we cant to take the time to answer in detail.

Generally I use the Lexham English Bible, but that's only when I am at home, if I am at work, I use the English Standard Version. Both a great translations, which fantastic scholarship.

And basically I was refuting the idea that Jesus is some kind of spirit now, and indeed showing that to believe such is to be in grave error.

 

[Larry H]

Hi John 8:32 and Doulos Thanks for giving me an understanding of you doctrinal beliefs.

Consider thefollowing

John’s quote

There is NO second chance. However, if God were gracious enough to give a second chanceor a third, WOULD IT ANGER YOU? It angers some and that seems odd to me. If asecond chance would save someone from eternal death, so what? Bottom line:There is one opportunity and only one opportunity for salvation, so all of oursupposes and $1.79 will get us a coffee at Mickey D's.

Take note John ;how is your coffee at Mickey D’s J

“So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, THEY BEGAN TO GRUMBLE AGAINSTTHE LANDOWNER.

These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said,'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am notbeing unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay andgo. I WANT TO GIVE THE MAN WHO WAS HIRED LAST THE SAME AS I GAVE YOU”

John and Doulos I am trying to balance out your view on the following verses. By the way I don’t believe in a second chance salvation plan myself. However I think God can take the umbrella, atonement, of Christ over anyone he cares to.

For example a new born baby, a person who doesn’t have the mental composites to understand etc. Do you have any thoughts on this!

THE NATURE OF GODON THE JUDGMENT DAY ON THE RESURRECTION DAY

I find it sad today there are many Christians walking around thinking they got it made with God because of their faith. Just like the Jew of Old thinking because they were Jewish they had it made. Kind of puts God in a box! HE CAN TAKE THE UMBRELLA OF CHRIST AND PUT IT OVER ANYONE HE CARES TO.“For

God does not show favoritism” Consider the following. “But IF YOU SHOW FAVORITISM, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers”

“Religion that God our Father accepts as pureand faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress”

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required bythe law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,since they show that the requirements of the LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS,their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

"This will take place on the day when GOD WILL JUDGEMEN'S SECRETS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, as my gospel declares".

“THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE APPOINTED TIME; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose themotives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. “Therefore God has mercy on WHOM HE WANTS TO HAVE MERCY and he hardens whom he wants to harden BUT WHO ARE YOU, O MAN, TO TALK BACK TO GOD?

I think there is going to be many surprises on judgment day!

What’s your take!

Larry