The Roman King

[RandyK]

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [490 years minus 3.5 years] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. [Christ's death would bring an end to Jewish Sin under their Temple worship.]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [457 BC] until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes [the 1st Coming of Christ], there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ [70 Weeks of years]. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble [49 years of restoring Jerusalem and temple worship roughly in the time of Nehemiah]. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ [after 483 years], the Anointed One [Christ] will be put to death and will have nothing [Christ's Kingdom did not come immediately]. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman King of the 4th and last of 4 Kingdoms in the Mediterranean region] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [Jerusalem and the Temple worship]. The end will come like a flood [the Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple]: War will continue until the end [an age-long desolation of Israel], and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman King] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven’ [the Roman King will unconsciously fulfill God's promise to bring Messiah to his place of destiny]. In the middle of the ‘seven’ [this final "Week" was fulfilled as only a "Half-Week"] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [The Roman King will terminate temple worship.]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the pagan Roman Army will lay siege to and destroy Jerusalem], until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Roman King is finally ended with the destruction of the "Little Horn" of Dan 7].

Obviously, the brackets are my insertions to reflect my interpretation of the passage. You can consider your own "insertions" as possible interpretations.

Daniel saw future things through the prism of 4 kings, who represented, generally, 4 great kingdoms on earth that impacted the Mediterranean region. It was here that events prepared for the history of the modern world leading eventually to the Kingdom of Christ. In Dan 2 and Dan 7 the 4th Kingdom figures prominently, with the 4th King representing this Kingdom at various stages of its development.

I believe the 4th Kingdom was the Roman Empire, and Daniel describes in chapter 9 some of what this King would do at different stages of its imperial development. It would essentially be in agreement, unconsciously, with the Covenant God made with Israel, to supply a crucified Messiah that brings to an end a long period of temple worship.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed [the "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist], the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [in Christendom], proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? [Paul lived in the Roman Empire, and would not openly divulge that the Roman King would be the Antichrist.] 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time [The Roman King himself holds the Empire together until it breaks up into 10 states.]. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [the Roman King] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [the Emperor is temporarily removed]. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed [the Antichrist], whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

After Messiah was put to death by the Roman King a later Roman King destroyed the temple, desolating Jerusalem and the nation Israel for the entire NT age. Ultimately, this King would become the "Little Horn" spoken of in ch. 7 and would be terminated, freeing Israel from the bondage of punishment.

This 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire, was therefore integral in shaping the future modern world because it would preside over a government that keeps things intact, politically, until, as Dan 7 suggests, it breaks up into 10 states. The Kingdom, originally, developed two distinct sections, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire. And at different times both sections devolved into a number of distinct states which will eventually comprise a restored Roman Empire under the Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God, the Theocracy, would be taken from Israel and given to another nation worthy of it. This was, I believe, the Roman Empire, which converted to Christianity under Theodosius, giving the Roman Empire cohesion to last throughout the present age.

However, as we are told in ch. 7, this imperial entity would break up into a set of states, in both Eastern and Western Europe, until the Little Horn reconsolidates them under himself, instead of under Christ. He will "take his seat in God's temple, proclaiming himself God." That "temple" is not a literal, physical temple, but God's place within Christendom, which is "God's Temple."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [490 years minus 3.5 years] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. [Christ's death would bring an end to Jewish Sin under their Temple worship.]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [457 BC] until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes [the 1st Coming of Christ], there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ [70 Weeks of years]. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble [49 years of restoring Jerusalem and temple worship roughly in the time of Nehemiah]. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ [after 483 years], the Anointed One [Christ] will be put to death and will have nothing [Christ's Kingdom did not come immediately]. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman King of the 4th and last of 4 Kingdoms in the Mediterranean region] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [Jerusalem and the Temple worship]. The end will come like a flood [the Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple]: War will continue until the end [an age-long desolation of Israel], and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman King] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven’ [the Roman King will unconsciously fulfill God's promise to bring Messiah to his place of destiny]. In the middle of the ‘seven’ [this final "Week" was fulfilled as only a "Half-Week"] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [The Roman King will terminate temple worship.]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the pagan Roman Army will lay siege to and destroy Jerusalem], until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Roman King is finally ended with the destruction of the "Little Horn" of Dan 7].

Obviously, the brackets are my insertions to reflect my interpretation of the passage. You can consider your own "insertions" as possible interpretations.

Daniel saw future things through the prism of 4 kings, who represented, generally, 4 great kingdoms on earth that impacted the Mediterranean region. It was here that events prepared for the history of the modern world leading eventually to the Kingdom of Christ. In Dan 2 and Dan 7 the 4th Kingdom figures prominently, with the 4th King representing this Kingdom at various stages of its development.

I believe the 4th Kingdom was the Roman Empire, and Daniel describes in chapter 9 some of what this King would do at different stages of its imperial development. It would essentially be in agreement, unconsciously, with the Covenant God made with Israel, to supply a crucified Messiah that brings to an end a long period of temple worship.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed [the "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist], the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [in Christendom], proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? [Paul lived in the Roman Empire, and would not openly divulge that the Roman King would be the Antichrist.] 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time [The Roman King himself holds the Empire together until it breaks up into 10 states.]. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [the Roman King] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [the Emperor is temporarily removed]. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed [the Antichrist], whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

After Messiah was put to death by the Roman King a later Roman King destroyed the temple, desolating Jerusalem and the nation Israel for the entire NT age. Ultimately, this King would become the "Little Horn" spoken of in ch. 7 and would be terminated, freeing Israel from the bondage of punishment.

This 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire, was therefore integral in shaping the future modern world because it would preside over a government that keeps things intact, politically, until, as Dan 7 suggests, it breaks up into 10 states. The Kingdom, originally, developed two distinct sections, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire. And at different times both sections devolved into a number of distinct states which will eventually comprise a restored Roman Empire under the Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God, the Theocracy, would be taken from Israel and given to another nation worthy of it. This was, I believe, the Roman Empire, which converted to Christianity under Theodosius, giving the Roman Empire cohesion to last throughout the present age.

However, as we are told in ch. 7, this imperial entity would break up into a set of states, in both Eastern and Western Europe, until the Little Horn reconsolidates them under himself, instead of under Christ. He will "take his seat in God's temple, proclaiming himself God." That "temple" is not a literal, physical temple, but God's place within Christendom, which is "God's Temple."

Blessings, Randy!

I have my own interpretation of the Beast, and of how these passages were to be interpreted, and maybe we can get into this more in awhile if you would be interested.

For now, I will transfer this to Biblical End-Times, since the thread is more about Biblical prophecy rather than strictly modern visions and dreams.

Thanks for posting, and if you would like another perspective or just to bat things around in a Spirit of love, let me know.
- H

 

[RandyK]

Blessings, Randy!

I have my own interpretation of the Beast, and of how these passages were to be interpreted, and maybe we can get into this more in awhile if you would be interested.

For now, I will transfer this to Biblical End-Times, since the thread is more about Biblical prophecy rather than strictly modern visions and dreams.

Thanks for posting, and if you would like another perspective or just to bat things around in a Spirit of love, let me know.
- H

Thanks for putting it into the correct category. I'm always willing to discuss anything and everything biblical prophecy and endtimes.

Yes, I didn't intend to put it in "visions and dreams," but apparently it landed there. ;) I'm also interested in that, but my primary interest has always been the 2nd Coming, and things that lead up to that.

I enjoy hearing other viewpoints. I especially enjoy them when in the discussions both parties can recite the other's position properly, and pretend to make the argument for themselves! But this is kind of rare. ;)

But I do like to hear different positions, whether I agree or not. Sometimes, there's a part of an argument that will instruct me, even if other parts of the argument I still don't agree with. I'll never learn or be corrected if I don't listen to all of the sincere arguments--we all have a measure of the Spirit, to some degree.

I really try to not get emotionally invested in any questionable position--many positions fall into the category of "questionable" in regard to interpreting apocalyptic literature in the Bible. If a viewpoint gets so hardened in our heart, we likely can't minister to others who are turned off by a calcified attitude.

A lot of us simply have fun trying to see prophetic ideas the way God wants us to see them, interpreting difficult images the best we can. I've found, personally, that I've only come to satisfying positions after adopting a number of positions from different schools. Loyalty to a single school doesn't suggest objectivity.

So please feel free. I have about 50 years of ideas that can fit together in a number of different ways. I'm not sure I've heard anything new for awhile. But I'm sure I don't have the "final" picture yet. ;)

 

[JLB]

He will "take his seat in God's temple, proclaiming himself God." That "temple" is not a literal, physical temple, but God's place within Christendom, which is "God's Temple."

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

Do you believe the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, which was over 35 years after Messiah was “cut off”?


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27

 

[for_his_glory]

Daniel 7-8 the little horn/4th beast

The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire: (Iraq), Medo - Persian Empire: (Iran), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt), Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

Seven remaining nations that still exist today:

Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

The modern day Ten Kingdoms of the NWO are listed below:

Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thanks for putting it into the correct category. I'm always willing to discuss anything and everything biblical prophecy and endtimes.

Yes, I didn't intend to put it in "visions and dreams," but apparently it landed there. ;) I'm also interested in that, but my primary interest has always been the 2nd Coming, and things that lead up to that.

I enjoy hearing other viewpoints. I especially enjoy them when in the discussions both parties can recite the other's position properly, and pretend to make the argument for themselves! But this is kind of rare. ;)

But I do like to hear different positions, whether I agree or not. Sometimes, there's a part of an argument that will instruct me, even if other parts of the argument I still don't agree with. I'll never learn or be corrected if I don't listen to all of the sincere arguments--we all have a measure of the Spirit, to some degree.

I really try to not get emotionally invested in any questionable position--many positions fall into the category of "questionable" in regard to interpreting apocalyptic literature in the Bible. If a viewpoint gets so hardened in our heart, we likely can't minister to others who are turned off by a calcified attitude.

A lot of us simply have fun trying to see prophetic ideas the way God wants us to see them, interpreting difficult images the best we can. I've found, personally, that I've only come to satisfying positions after adopting a number of positions from different schools. Loyalty to a single school doesn't suggest objectivity.

So please feel free. I have about 50 years of ideas that can fit together in a number of different ways. I'm not sure I've heard anything new for awhile. But I'm sure I don't have the "final" picture yet. ;)

Alright. Looks like you have a couple more takers already as well. I'm planning on bouncing back into forum discussion starting tomorrow, plus I wanted to get to your response to the last study that I never got to, so should be fun!

See you then.
- H

 

[RandyK]

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

Do you believe the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, which was over 35 years after Messiah was “cut off”?


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27

Yes, Dan 9.26-27 indicates that the Roman King would have a "people," or "army," that would destroy the "city and the sanctuary." We are told that before this happens the Messiah will be cut off, and that temple offerings would cease, confirming God's covenant with Israel.

Now this in itself is strange, and Peter tells us that the prophets inquired but did not understand. How could they? How could they know that the death of Messiah and the end of temple worship would fulfill God's covenant wth Israel?

But it did. The Roman King put Jesus to death, confirming God's covenant with Israel to redeem them from sin, to forgive their sin. And then the desolator, ie the Roman Army, would lay siege to Jerusalem and desolate the temple worship.

The temple worship had been obliterated when Messiah was cut off, who was the true sacrifice. But the job was finished 40 years later when the Roman King entered Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and the sanctuary. The Roman Army, therefore, was the "Abomination of Desolation," spoken of in Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

In fact, in the very place in Luke's version where the AoD would be located, in comparison with the versions in Matthew and Mark where it is mentioned, Luke mentions the Roman Army laying siege to Jerusalem. That means the Roman Army was viewed, by all 3 Gospel authors, as being the AoD.

 

[RandyK]

Alright. Looks like you have a couple more takers already as well. I'm planning on bouncing back into forum discussion starting tomorrow, plus I wanted to get to your response to the last study that I never got to, so should be fun!

See you then.
- H

It's been so much fun, for the most part, over the last 20 years or so on these forums! In particular, being on Christian forums has been a joy--not because of the arguing and emotional downturns, insults, etc., but because I find so many really set on knowing God's word! It's a form of love for God to want to understand and learn from His word!

It's like we're all a bunch of little kids in a sandbox trying to compete with each other to build the best, most beautiful sand castle. After fussing over one thing after another we find in the end we're all building the same castle! ;) We're all contributing to erecting the very same edifice for God!

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's like we're all a bunch of little kids in a sandbox trying to compete with each other to build the best, most beautiful sand castle. After fussing over one thing after another we find in the end we're all building the same castle! ;) We're all contributing to erecting the very same edifice for God!

Sometimes, yes. That's a pretty positive way to look at it, but maybe that's the way we should. I know there can be some clanging one another over the head with the shovels sometimes, but that boiled down to maturity I think.

Blessings, and talk to you tomorrow.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [490 years minus 3.5 years] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. [Christ's death would bring an end to Jewish Sin under their Temple worship.]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [457 BC] until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes [the 1st Coming of Christ], there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ [70 Weeks of years]. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble [49 years of restoring Jerusalem and temple worship roughly in the time of Nehemiah]. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ [after 483 years], the Anointed One [Christ] will be put to death and will have nothing [Christ's Kingdom did not come immediately]. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman King of the 4th and last of 4 Kingdoms in the Mediterranean region] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [Jerusalem and the Temple worship]. The end will come like a flood [the Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple]: War will continue until the end [an age-long desolation of Israel], and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman King] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven’ [the Roman King will unconsciously fulfill God's promise to bring Messiah to his place of destiny]. In the middle of the ‘seven’ [this final "Week" was fulfilled as only a "Half-Week"] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [The Roman King will terminate temple worship.]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the pagan Roman Army will lay siege to and destroy Jerusalem], until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Roman King is finally ended with the destruction of the "Little Horn" of Dan 7].

Obviously, the brackets are my insertions to reflect my interpretation of the passage. You can consider your own "insertions" as possible interpretations.

Daniel saw future things through the prism of 4 kings, who represented, generally, 4 great kingdoms on earth that impacted the Mediterranean region. It was here that events prepared for the history of the modern world leading eventually to the Kingdom of Christ. In Dan 2 and Dan 7 the 4th Kingdom figures prominently, with the 4th King representing this Kingdom at various stages of its development.

I believe the 4th Kingdom was the Roman Empire, and Daniel describes in chapter 9 some of what this King would do at different stages of its imperial development. It would essentially be in agreement, unconsciously, with the Covenant God made with Israel, to supply a crucified Messiah that brings to an end a long period of temple worship.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed [the "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist], the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [in Christendom], proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? [Paul lived in the Roman Empire, and would not openly divulge that the Roman King would be the Antichrist.] 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time [The Roman King himself holds the Empire together until it breaks up into 10 states.]. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [the Roman King] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [the Emperor is temporarily removed]. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed [the Antichrist], whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

After Messiah was put to death by the Roman King a later Roman King destroyed the temple, desolating Jerusalem and the nation Israel for the entire NT age. Ultimately, this King would become the "Little Horn" spoken of in ch. 7 and would be terminated, freeing Israel from the bondage of punishment.

This 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire, was therefore integral in shaping the future modern world because it would preside over a government that keeps things intact, politically, until, as Dan 7 suggests, it breaks up into 10 states. The Kingdom, originally, developed two distinct sections, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire. And at different times both sections devolved into a number of distinct states which will eventually comprise a restored Roman Empire under the Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God, the Theocracy, would be taken from Israel and given to another nation worthy of it. This was, I believe, the Roman Empire, which converted to Christianity under Theodosius, giving the Roman Empire cohesion to last throughout the present age.

However, as we are told in ch. 7, this imperial entity would break up into a set of states, in both Eastern and Western Europe, until the Little Horn reconsolidates them under himself, instead of under Christ. He will "take his seat in God's temple, proclaiming himself God." That "temple" is not a literal, physical temple, but God's place within Christendom, which is "God's Temple."

Ok, Randy. There is a lot to teach here to present my view, and I assumed I could likely find something decent on video rather than try and write it all up.

There is. This is an interview with Joel Richardson, who I learned this interpretation from and subscribe to. In short, the scriptural evidence is strong that the Antichrist will be Muslim and thus the empire will be the Islamic Caliphate they have been proclaiming will come some day rather than a revived Roman Empire.

But start from about 6:44. I don't want to bog you down with too much having to watch stuff. So I will update this post with other sections that I think are especially pertinent, and tell me what your thoughts are. All the nations mentioned as coming against Israel in the end-times are currently Muslim.

 

[RandyK]

Ok, Randy. There is a lot to teach here to present my view, and I assumed I could likely find something decent on video rather than try and write it all up.

There is. This is an interview with Joel Richardson, who I learned this interpretation from and subscribe to. In short, the scriptural evidence is strong that the Antichrist will be Muslim and thus the empire will be the Islamic Caliphate they have been proclaiming will come some day rather than a revived Roman Empire.

But start from about 6:44. I don't want to bog you down with too much having to watch stuff. So I will update this post with other sections that I think are especially pertinent, and tell me what your thoughts are. All the nations mentioned as coming against Israel in the end-times are currently Muslim.

Sure, I'll check it out. Of course, I've faced this proposal before, and I tend to see Mohammad as the "Little Antichrist," and the European King as the "Big Antichrist."

The Middle East was, as I see it, the cradle of civilization for religious development. That's where Israel was started, and that's where Israel's Muslim relatives started to attack them.

But the cradle is not the full-grown baby! God wanted, I believe, not just Israel but many nations. Israel was the initial model, but the universal Church was the object. As important as Israel was to Abraham, the many nations are even more important to God, father of all nations!

So when Israel temporarily went into decline and got eclipsed by the nations coming to faith, the "cradle" of the Middle East expanded into Europe. That's where Chritianity came to be rooted, and from there has expanded to the rest of the world.

So the global opposition to the universal Church will come from some place much bigger than the Middle East and Islam. It will come from within Europe itself, as I see it.

But I'll listen to your video 1st, and then add my comments on that. Thanks much!

 

[Hidden In Him]

But the cradle is not the full-grown baby! God wanted, I believe, not just Israel but many nations. Israel was the initial model, but the universal Church was the object. As important as Israel was to Abraham, the many nations are even more important to God, father of all nations!

Certainly. I fully agree.

So when Israel temporarily went into decline and got eclipsed by the nations coming to faith, the "cradle" of the Middle East expanded into Europe. That's where Chritianity came to be rooted, and from there has expanded to the rest of the world.

So the global opposition to the universal Church will come from some place much bigger than the Middle East and Islam. It will come from within Europe itself, as I see it.

What also comes into play is what one's interpretation of the whore who rides the beast is. I believe it is the false church headed by Rome, which is why I believe (as does Richardson) that Islam will gain increasing influence and power over Europe as well. We see this slowly happening, because they are immigrating into the European nations and developing an ever-greater presence there.

Anyway, if you are familiar with this position then the following may not be new to you either, but I will post it just in case. I believe this to be an accurate assessment of what the mark of the beast will be. Muslims wear this sign on headbands and wrist bands, just as orthodox Jews wear something similar on their heads (the Tefillin, or torah box). I think this is the proper interpretation of the mark of the beast verses the counter mark of God's people in Revelations will be. I will post that after the video link.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Excerpted from the link below:

The concept of something written on the hand and forehead is nothing new. There are four verses in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) which refer to this and the idea would have been completely understood by the reader of John's letter. The four verses are Exodus 13:9, Exodus 13:16, Deuteronomy 6:8 and Deuteronomy 11:18. I will place only one here as they all say the same thing.

You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. Deuteronomy 6:8. The orthodox/ultra orthodox Jews take these scriptures literally and wear tefillin (phylacteries) upon their hand and forehead during prayer. In the first century this was also the custom as ancient tefillin have been discovered. Yeshua Himself most assuredly would have probably worn them.

The idea of having something written on your forehead and your hand actually denotes that you have continually placed it before your eyes and in the forefront of your mind. What was suppose to be in the forefront of their minds? The statutes, judgments, and commands of God (Elohim). That is why if you read prior to the above mentioned verse that YHWH instructs them to teach His words to their children, to talk about them when they sit in their house, when they walk by the way, and when they lie down, and when they rose up, and to write them upon their doorposts and on their gates. This means literally - don't ever forget to teach and to keep them!

Now, the next very important thing is that these scriptures all say that they are to do this because it will be a "sign" upon you. The Hebrew word here used for sign is the Hebrew word ote (אות). This word means "mark, sign, signal, proof, distinguishing mark, token, evidence" in the sense of good, or in the sense of bad "omen, warning".

In every instance in the TaNaKh where this word is used there is a physical description of something being seen as a sign. In other words, this is not just a spiritually unseen thing. When this word is used the "sign" can be seen by people. When a person keeps YHWH's commandments, statutes and judgments, they can be seen carrying out these instructions by the way they live their life.

For example, the Bible states that the Sabbath and Passover is a "sign" between God and man (Exodus 31:13, 17 and Exodus 12:21, 22). If a person is keeping the Sabbath and the Passover then others can see them as they observe the Sabbath, Passover, etc. Likewise, when a person keeps the Words of the Almighty they have separated themselves unto the LORD as a set apart people and they have a "sign" upon them of obedience to His Words. This sign is a "distinguishing mark" that Elohim recognizes. When He sees this "sign" of obedience upon them He will do something in return - He will "mark" or "seal" them.

Now, this mark/seal is referred to in Revelation and two such references are listed:

"Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads" (Revelation 7:3)

They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Revelation 9:4).

We find this same concept in the book of Ezekiel in two places:

And the LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it" (Ezekiel 9:4)

"Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." (Ezekiel 9:6)

Why does Elohim put this mark upon them? Because they have kept His teachings and instructions before their face, in the forefront of their minds (hence on their hand and forehead). Keeping His teachings and instructions has made them a set apart, peculiar people and they are not like the world, but in fact, stick out like a sore thumb because people can "see" that they walk by a different walk and they talk a different talk.

The set-apart priests wore the Name of YHWH on their foreheads. Likewise, we are called to be a kingdom of set-apart priests, therefore we are to bear His Name upon our foreheads. To have His Name upon your forehead signifies ownership.

The Mark of the Beast versus The Mark of God - A Hebraic Approach

Hebraic approach to the Mark of the Beast

www.ourancientpaths.org

 

[RandyK]

Certainly. I fully agree.


What also comes into play is what one's interpretation of the whore who rides the beast is. I believe it is the false church headed by Rome, which is why I believe (as does Richardson) that Islam will gain increasing influence and power over Europe as well. We see this slowly happening, because they are immigrating into the European nations and developing an ever-greater presence there.

Anyway, if you are familiar with this position then the following may not be new to you either, but I will post it just in case. I believe this to be an accurate assessment of what the mark of the beast will be. Muslims wear this sign on headbands and wrist bands, just as orthodox Jews wear something similar on their heads (the Tefillin, or torah box). I think this is the proper interpretation of the mark of the beast verses the counter mark of God's people in Revelations will be. I will post that after the video link.

Okay, I just finished listening to Richardson/Joel's Trumpet. Good guy. However, I'm still convinced that the Antichrist will spring out of the heart of Europe, the home of Rome.

If you study history you will see how what started in the South ends up in the North, as people spread out across the globe. So the South may be where Antichristianity started--even Rome is Mediterranean. But Rome is also European, and both parts of the Roman Empire spread to the North, the West into Germany, and the East into Russia. You might think of modern Roman imperialism as being German in Western Europe and Slavic in Eastern Europe.

Joel's guest, incidentally, was Ukrainian. One of my grandparents was German and came out of Ukraine, as well. Another of my grandparents was Finnish, and may have come over here to escape being drafted by the Russian Army. ;) This was well over 100 years ago.

Anyway, I don't know about the False Prophet. He may be a corrupt Pope, or he may be an Islamic Caliph--don't know? I do recognize the importance of Islam as an historic Antichrist, of sorts. I just think that the main one springs out of Europe.

There may be some differences in interpretation I have with Joel, although I respect him nonetheless. I don't see Dan 11 as being about the Antichrist, nor for that matter Dan 8. Those prophecies had largely to do with Antiochus 4, as I interpret them.

Antichrist appears mostly in Dan 7, and originates from the 4th Kingdom, which I agree with tradition refers to Rome, where Christ and his apostles were martyred. All of the biblical words Joel employs to prove this 4th Kingdom was Islamic seem superficial to me.

For example, Greece, the 3rd Kingdom, was clearly European, and not Arabic or Persian. Rome did piggyback on the Greek culture and produced something much more significant, culturally, than Islam has ever done.

Anyway, I admit that the Bible is largely Middle East-centric, referring to the Mediterranean culture primarily, though not exclusively. And that's typical of the Bible, to speak to the more immediate audience even if in the future migrations and movements take place encompassing the whole world.

We see, for example, Acts refer to the Early Church as only in its seminal stages, barely reaching out to Rome, but still heavily focused on Israel's Law and on a theology of interpreting the Law in NT terms. But that's only because historical development had not yet advanced to where Christian nations came into existence, much as Israel had been a theocracy. And theology advanced beyond simply interpreting the Law in NT terms to include doctrines protecting the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, etc. Of course, those were evidently "biblical," as well.

So, what John shared in the Revelation was certainly limited in its language in projecting into the future. A Russian Empire could not have yet been conceived of, nor could the Holy Roman Empire. But these were realities coming after the biblical record was finished, and may certainly be part of Divine Prophecy.

Even in Revelation it seems that reference is to Rome, in a cryptic way, because John could not openly identify Rome, his captor, as the Antichrist, nor even as an ungodly, pagan system. He could not identify Rome as the "4th Kingdom" of Dan 2 and 7, nor could he say that Europe would migrate to the north, East and West, over time.

But John did say in Rev 17 that the Whore was the "city that rules the world," which for me had to have been Rome. And identifying it as anything other than the Roman Empire seems less than credible, in my view. So many of the Church Fathers, if not all of them, saw the Roman Empire as the "4th Kingdom."

Anyway, thanks for the input. Hopefully, God will make things clearer to us all, as we get closer to a time when such truths are more vital. God will give us what we need for the time, I should think? Have a nice day!

 

[Hidden In Him]

There may be some differences in interpretation I have with Joel, although I respect him nonetheless. I don't see Dan 11 as being about the Antichrist, nor for that matter Dan 8. Those prophecies had largely to do with Antiochus 4, as I interpret them.

This is where it can get tricky. I.e. interpreting what has already past into history from what hasn't. I think Daniel 8 has already been fulfilled as well, but not Daniel 11.

Antichrist appears mostly in Dan 7, and originates from the 4th Kingdom, which I agree with tradition refers to Rome, where Christ and his apostles were martyred. All of the biblical words Joel employs to prove this 4th Kingdom was Islamic seem superficial to me.

For example, Greece, the 3rd Kingdom, was clearly European, and not Arabic or Persian. Rome did piggyback on the Greek culture and produced something much more significant, culturally, than Islam has ever done.

Here would be my take. I believe the Lord saw all the way into our day, and knew the true fulfillment would not come for another 2,000 years. But if He were to have told the early church that, would most of them have been willing to go to the cross having zero hope that He would be returning in their lifetimes? My personal opinion is no. So He let them believe that the return was in their time, and make it look as though Rome would be the fulfillment. It appears even Satan bought this, for the demons that manifested before the Lord said to Him, "What have we to do with you before the time?" Satan's kingdom thought the end was at hand as well, but like with what happened with Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel, and "in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die," God was leading Satan on to play his hand again.

Anyway, I know it seems inconsistent with what He was telling them back then, but I think the fact that all the nations prophesied to come against Israel in the end-times are currently Islamic is just too telling, and unlike the Catholic Church, many Muslim leaders have already proclaimed the complete extermination of the Jews when they finally come into power, and the beheadings mentioned in the book of Revelation are also something the Muslims practice against infidels, so I think the case is strong.

I plan on getting to last weeks study questions this evening, and thanks for responding to that as well. I am currently in part of 2nd Peter that loses many people.