The Sabbath day was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

[Humblepie]

Unless people enter into Christ, every law will hold lawbreakers accountable until the end of the ages. A

It's not hard to understand, we are not justified by the law, we are proclaimed righteous by our faith.

Obedience does not determine if you are righteous, only your faith can do that.


Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[RandyK]

I once thought like you, so it isn't pre conceived.

Of course it's preconceived beliefs that you're trying to promote. You conceived of the idea before you started the thread!

That way of thinking, you have to remove scripture that contradicts your belief. God said the law is for ALL generations, till heaven and earth pass, you have to remove that from scripture to fit your belief, I dont.

God said the Law was for a continuous set of generations, as opposed to being for a single generation. But the implication was not an "eternal" Law. Rather, it was a *continuous* Law, until it was resolved.

The issue that had to be resolved was the sinfulness of Israel, which destroyed the eternity of God's promise to them. They were given eternal promises which could not be resolved under the Law. And so, the Law was given in a continuous way, providing temporary atonement until final atonement could come.

In a very true sense, all of Israel's generations under the Law came to an end when the Law failed. It failed during the Babylonian Captivity, though it was kept on life support. But it failed again in the time of Christ, when he was murdered.

So inasmuch as Israel's generations failed--all of them, a new way had to fulfill what the old way had promised and foreshadowed.

 

[Humblepie]

No, the law, or principle, of sin is the fact that under God's Law we are all found to be sinners. We will always be guilty of this until through Christ we are liberated from that condemnation.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with being under one covenant or the other. Again, Paul made it unmistakeably clear that Christians are not under the Law as a covenant. We are under a New Covenant.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[RandyK]

It's not hard to understand, we are not justified by the law, we are proclaimed righteous by our faith.

Obedience does not determine if you are righteous, only your faith can do that.

You couldn't be more wrong. We are always determined righteous by our obedience, and not by our disobedience. Our righteousness, however, does not obtain Eternal Life apart from our abiding in Christ. And so, all our righteousness comes, in the New Testament, from abiding in Christ. That way we are deemed righteous, and also obtain eternal life.

Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Paul was arguing not that he was obeying the Law. Rather, he was showing that NT obedience to Christ is the *fulfillment* of the Law!

 

[Humblepie]

But the implication was not an "eternal" Law.

Psalm 119:89: States that God's word is eternal and stands firm in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8: States that the word of God endures forever, while grass withers and flowers fall.

Malachi 3:6: States that "I the Lord do not change".

Matthew 24:35: States that heaven and earth will pass away, but God's words will never pass away.

 

[RandyK]

Sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, Sin had been defined for Israel while they were under the Law by their transgression against the Law. The Law was God's Word to them, and defying that Law was therefore sin for them.

But God's Word has never been limited to just God's Law to Israel through Moses. It was determined from the beginning that all men are created in God's image. Therefore, God's Law speaks universally to the consciences of men, informing them what is necessary to live in God's image.

So Sin is determined not just by the Law of Moses, but more, by every word that God speaks to men, under the old covenant or in the New Covenant era.

 

[RandyK]

Psalm 119:89: States that God's word is eternal and stands firm in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8: States that the word of God endures forever, while grass withers and flowers fall.

Malachi 3:6: States that "I the Lord do not change".

Matthew 24:35: States that heaven and earth will pass away, but God's words will never pass away.

You are suggesting that the Law of Moses is eternal. It is not. It was determined by God's eternal word to be temporary. Eternal redemption was never meant to come by the blood of goats and sheep, bulls, etc. Rather, eternal redemption was said, by the word of God, to come by Christ's sacrifice.

Clearly, there was a change in law. It is also recorded as such in Jeremiah 31.31 etc. It is further elaborated upon in the letter of Hebrews. And as I said, Paul contrasted the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. There is a reason the Old Covenant is called the *Old* Covenant!

The Apostle John said "Grace and peace comes by Jesus Christ, whereas the Law of Moses came by Moses." paraphrased

James called the eternal law of conscience the "Law of Liberty." And that is because we are not bound by Jewish laws that Christ completely fulrilled.

 

[RandyK]

You are not bound by rituals and forms that can never reflect your perfection. The best form to assume is one that humbly submits to Christ and abides in him. This picture is what pleases God forevermore.

 

[Humblepie]

You couldn't be more wrong. We are always determined righteous by our obedience,

No, by our faith.

Abraham was found righteous because of his faith, so was Job, so was Noah, so am I.

Obedience is a fruit of your faith.

 

[RandyK]

No, by our faith.

Abraham was found righteous because of his faith, so was Job, so was Noah, so am I.

Obedience is a fruit of your faith.

You are assuming there is a contradiction between being righteous by obedience and being righteous by faith. There is no contradiction! Obedience is a response in faith to God's living word. When He speaks to our heart, or conscience, we obey. Unless we believed He was speaking to us, we wouldn't obey. But because we believe His word is real, we obey and are thus justified both by obedience and by faith.

 

[Humblepie]

Yes, Sin had been defined for Israel while they were under the Law by their transgression against the Law. The Law was God's Word to them, and defying that Law was therefore sin for them.

But God's Word has never been limited to just God's Law to Israel through Moses. It was determined from the beginning that all men are created in God's image. Therefore, God's Law speaks universally to the consciences of men, informing them what is necessary to live in God's image.

So Sin is determined not just by the Law of Moses, but more, by every word that God speaks to men, under the old covenant or in the New Covenant era.

The law defines sin, period.

The law points to Jesus.


God doesn't change.


During his Millennial reign, the law goes out from his holy mountain.

 

[Humblepie]

You are assuming there is a contradiction between being righteous by obedience and being righteous by faith. There is no contradiction! Obedience is a response in faith to God's living word. When He speaks to our heart, or conscience, we obey. Unless we believed He was speaking to us, we wouldn't obey. But because we believe His word is real, we obey and are thus justified both by obedience and by faith.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[RandyK]

The law defines sin, period.

So by "period" you mean you are not concerned to answer any of the points I made? I showed you an important element in the argument, but you don't care to respond. Your choice....

The law points to Jesus.

What's your point?

God doesn't change.

God doesn't change. But God said the Law would change to a New Covenant.

During his Millennial reign, the law goes out from his holy mountain.

Actually, the Law went out from Israel at Pentecost. But it may very well go out again from Israel when God recovers that nation at Christ's Coming?

 

[Humblepie]

You are assuming there is a contradiction between being righteous by obedience and being righteous by faith. There is no contradiction! Obedience is a response in faith to God's living word. When He speaks to our heart, or conscience, we obey. Unless we believed He was speaking to us, we wouldn't obey. But because we believe His word is real, we obey and are thus justified both by obedience and by faith.

Some Christians may be surprised to learn that the doctrine of justification by faith is not only found in the New Testament but in the Old Testament. Genesis tells us that Abraham, in response to God’s promise, “believed the LORD, and it was counted to him as righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). Job sought to justify himself before God and in the end renounced his own righteousness (e.g., Job 32:2; 42:1–6). David was a man after God’s own heart, and yet he speaks of the blessing of justification apart from works: “Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Ps. 32:1); “Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you” (Ps. 143:2). Isaiah prophesies that the servant of the Lord will “make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities” (Isa. 53:11)

 

[RandyK]

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Yes, part of our obedience is accepting Christ's atonement, which gives us both justification and peace. But obedience to Christ is, in fact, "righteousness!"

 

[RandyK]

Some Christians may be surprised to learn that the doctrine of justification by faith is not only found in the New Testament but in the Old Testament. Genesis tells us that Abraham, in response to God’s promise, “believed the LORD, and it was counted to him as righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). Job sought to justify himself before God and in the end renounced his own righteousness (e.g., Job 32:2; 42:1–6). David was a man after God’s own heart, and yet he speaks of the blessing of justification apart from works: “Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Ps. 32:1); “Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you” (Ps. 143:2). Isaiah prophesies that the servant of the Lord will “make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities” (Isa. 53:11)

I'm not surprised by OT justification since I've been sharing on this for some time. OT justification, though similar to NT justification in principle, is actually only a *temporary* justification.

Christ's atonement provided for an *eternal* justification. That's the big difference! But both forms of justification have taken place through faith, which even in the OT system is an appeal to Christ's final Justification in the NT era.

 

[Humblepie]

But God said the Law would change to a New Covenant.

Actually, no, he doesn't say that. He says a new covenant,
He never said the old covenant would be void.

A better covenant, he would give us a heart of flesh so we would WANT to follow his laws, they would be written on our hearts instead of stone tablets.

 

[Humblepie]

But obedience to Christ is, in fact, "righteousness!"

So we agree then.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven


teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

 

[RandyK]

Actually, no, he doesn't say that. He says a new covenant,
He never said the old covenant would be void.

No, God voided the Old Covenant in Jer 31.31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors

A better covenant, he would give us a heart of flesh so we would WANT to follow his laws, they would be written on our hearts instead of stone tablets.

Actually, this was just a prophecy that Israel would fail to follow the Old Covenant of Law in their heart, and that a New Covenant would have to come that they would successfully follow as a nation. That will be fulfilled at Christ's Coming.

Actually, *all* of God's covenants were intended to be fulfilled by the heart. It's just that over time Israel's heart grew cold while they were under the Law of Moses. A time will come, this prophecy is saying, when their hearts will *never again* grow cold--at least not to the degree the nation will ever fall again.

 

[Humblepie]

temporary* justification.

Do you have that scripture handy?
The one that said Abraham's justification was temporary?