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The Sabbath day was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

I've had long, long exchanges with people, including Jewish people, who have claimed that Jesus, on the basis of his Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5), taught the Law as an everlasting contract. And indeed it does require some explanation--perhaps it is even given in a somewhat vague way to throw off detractors who would later reject the notion that Messiah must provide an eternal atonement for sin?

So when Jesus taught that he would not abolish the Law of the Prophets until the universe passes, that he had to "fulfill them," he did not explain how he would fulfill them right away. Israel was still under the Law, and Jews were still being divided between those partial to Jesus and those opposed to him. To avoid appearing as anti-Lew he said this, indicating that he was 100% in favor of the testimony of the Law, which is that until the universe passes all sin must be dealt with.

At the time, the Law dealt with sin by covering it with inadequate offerings of atonement. I say that they were inadequate because they had to be repeated, ritually, on an endless basis. It was assumed there would always be sin, such that atonement would have to be made in perpetuity, ie until the end of the universe.

But Jesus, almost cryptically, indicated he, as Messiah, would have to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Looking back on the Cross, we now know that he fulfilled them by sacrificing himself in order to provide an atonement for Eternal Life. The Law could never provide for Eternal Life--just national and individual blessings. Jesus was really saying that the purpose of the Law had to be fulfilled in him because only he could provide a legal end to the condemnation of sin, making further offerings of atonement under the Law unnecessary.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus was teaching that as long as the universe remains, ie with mortal, sinful human beings, sin must be dealt with, whether by the Law and its rituals or by Christ's eternal atonement for sin. Unless sin is atoned for, righteousness will not exceed the poor value of that of the Pharisees, who did their righteousness externally to be seen of men. But inside they were filled with hatred and even murder.

Later in Jesus' ministry we learn that since the Law could not provide for Eternal Life, Christ had to die and provide for an atonement that would last. He had to, in other words, "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets.
 
Can you please answer the question?

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16


In this passage, what was the enmity, the hatred between Jew and Gentile?

It is described here as a wall of separation.

Would you like the short answer, or the long answer?
The short will have no context to back my answer, the long answer is very detailed and very long. The short answer will not get into Greek words and definitions, and will be incomplete.

If you are truly seeking knowledge I will give you the long answer. if you only want to know for a talking point, then I will not give you the full answer to your question. Also if you have no interest in reading a long post I won't waste my time in answering your question.
 
Would you like the short answer, or the long answer?
The short will have no context to back my answer, the long answer is very detailed and very long. The short answer will not get into Greek words and definitions, and will be incomplete.

If you are truly seeking knowledge I will give you the long answer. if you only want to know for a talking point, then I will not give you the full answer to your question. Also if you have no interest in reading a long post I won't waste my time in answering your question.

I hope to get an answer to my question that is found in the passage I quoted from Ephesians.

Not an essay involving other scriptures or opinions. The answer is found in the verses below.

I would like for you to copy and paste the answer from the verse I quoted.

The question is -

In this passage, what was the enmity, the hatred between Jew and Gentile that was abolished in His flesh?

It is described here as a wall of separation.

By doing this He made peace between Jew and Gentile in Him.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16
 
The wall that separated the Court of the Gentiles from the rest of the Herodian temple in the Bible is called the "middle wall of partition". This wall symbolized the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the Mosaic economy.
The Bible also says that Christ broke down the "dividing wall of enmity". Ephesians 2:14.

This wall isnt written in the Mosaic law, it is written in the oral ordinances written by man. Better known as the commandments of men.to add an extra layer of protection to keep the uncircumcised from entering the Temple. A sign hung on this wall stating if the wall was passed, they would be put to death.

Thus in Scripture it states the commandments CONTAINED in ordinances, or the commandments of men. This is the wall outside of the temple that was broken, thereby allowing the Gentiles the same freedom as the jews. As it is written, we are now citizens of the house of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
 
I hope to get an answer to my question that is found in the passage I quoted from Ephesians.

Not an essay involving other scriptures or opinions. The answer is found in the verses below.

I would like for you to copy and paste the answer from the verse I quoted.

The question is -

In this passage, what was the enmity, the hatred between Jew and Gentile that was abolished in His flesh?

It is described here as a wall of separation.

By doing this He made peace between Jew and Gentile in Him.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16
If you were expecting me to say the law of moses, you would be incorrect, because it would be an incorrect answer.

If that's your belief, then your belief doesn't jive with the text context.
 
I would like for you to copy and paste the answer from the verse I quoted.
Then you prefer not to know the whole truth.
Anyone can pull a Scripture out of the word and base a theology from that one verse, but that doesn't make it true.
Isn't that what we are looking for, truth.
 
Thus in Scripture it states the commandments CONTAINED in ordinances, or the commandments of men.

It is contained in ordinances, not the Law of Moses.

The commandments of men, or ordinances, is why Jesus called the Pharisees a den of vipers.
They elevated their own law above God's law.

Matt 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Jesus nailed those to the cross.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


He did the same thing with the dividing wall of enmity mentioned in Ephesians. He couldn't have achieved this if it was written in the Law of Moses.
 
If you were expecting me to say the law of moses, you would be incorrect, because it would be an incorrect answer.

If that's your belief, then your belief doesn't jive with the text context.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16


  • and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,


“When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. Deuteronomy 7:1-4

  • You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son.


I believe Deuteronomy 7 is a part of the law of Moses.
 
If you were expecting me to say the law of moses, you would be incorrect, because it would be an incorrect answer.

If that's your belief, then your belief doesn't jive with the text context.

I expected you to say what the scripture says.
 
Thus in Scripture it states the commandments CONTAINED in ordinances, or the commandments of men.

It is contained in ordinances, not the Law of Moses.

The commandments of men, or ordinances, is why Jesus called the Pharisees a den of vipers.
They elevated their own law above God's law.

Matt 15
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Jesus nailed those to the cross.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


He did the same thing with the dividing wall of enmity mentioned in Ephesians. He couldn't have achieved this if it was written in the Law of Moses.

So you believe we are to sacrifice animals for our sins according to the law of Moses?

Do you believe a person is to be put to death if the kindle a fire to cook on Saturday?
 
Then you prefer not to know the whole truth.
Anyone can pull a Scripture out of the word and base a theology from that one verse, but that doesn't make it true.
Isn't that what we are looking for, truth.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17


Handwriting is certainly not some oral law.
 
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16


  • and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,


“When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. Deuteronomy 7:1-4

  • You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son.


I believe Deuteronomy 7 is a part of the law of Moses.


Exodus 12:49
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Numbers 15:14-16
14 For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”
 
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17


Handwriting is certainly not some oral law.

KJV
14 Blotting out the handwriting of [[[[[ordinances]]]]]) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Dogma: Greek word used for oral law.
Ordinances in this verse.

nomos: Greek word used for Law of Moses


He nailed the oral law that was against us to the cross.

The oral law was against us

The Mosaic law was for us if we obeyed
Against us if we disobeyed.

So even if you say it's the Mosaic Law, he only nailed the curse of the law to the cross.
Unless you can provide a verse that says he nailed the blessings of the law to the cross, you are grasping at straws.
 
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Have you ever heard of the colossians heresy?

How about you read

Post 93

Post 94

Post 95


I covered it in depth and I will not cover it again.


It's just as I thought though, you don't actually read the post, you skim through the post. If you would read them you might learn some new truth.

Or just go eat more bacon.

I'm finished debating you for this reason.
 
Exodus 12:49
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Numbers 15:14-16
14 For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”

Yes, those Gentiles who desired to turn to the LORD and follow His ways were accepted.

Same rules applied to both.

Nevertheless Gentiles who served other gods were not to mingle with the children of Israel.


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17

again

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16


  • and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The law of Moses has been abolished.
 
I'm finished debating you for this reason.

You can’t deal with what the scriptures say.


I asked you to define what you meant by “observe” the Sabbath and you have refused. :shrug
 
14 Blotting out the handwriting of [[[[[ordinances]]]]]) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Dogma: Greek word used for oral law.
Ordinances in this verse.

Sorry bro, but handwriting means written.
 
I've had long, long exchanges with people, including Jewish people, who have claimed that Jesus, on the basis of his Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5), taught the Law as an everlasting contract. And indeed it does require some explanation--perhaps it is even given in a somewhat vague way to throw off detractors who would later reject the notion that Messiah must provide an eternal atonement for sin?

So when Jesus taught that he would not abolish the Law of the Prophets until the universe passes, that he had to "fulfill them," he did not explain how he would fulfill them right away. Israel was still under the Law, and Jews were still being divided between those partial to Jesus and those opposed to him. To avoid appearing as anti-Lew he said this, indicating that he was 100% in favor of the testimony of the Law, which is that until the universe passes all sin must be dealt with.

At the time, the Law dealt with sin by covering it with inadequate offerings of atonement. I say that they were inadequate because they had to be repeated, ritually, on an endless basis. It was assumed there would always be sin, such that atonement would have to be made in perpetuity, ie until the end of the universe.

But Jesus, almost cryptically, indicated he, as Messiah, would have to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Looking back on the Cross, we now know that he fulfilled them by sacrificing himself in order to provide an atonement for Eternal Life. The Law could never provide for Eternal Life--just national and individual blessings. Jesus was really saying that the purpose of the Law had to be fulfilled in him because only he could provide a legal end to the condemnation of sin, making further offerings of atonement under the Law unnecessary.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus was teaching that as long as the universe remains, ie with mortal, sinful human beings, sin must be dealt with, whether by the Law and its rituals or by Christ's eternal atonement for sin. Unless sin is atoned for, righteousness will not exceed the poor value of that of the Pharisees, who did their righteousness externally to be seen of men. But inside they were filled with hatred and even murder.

Later in Jesus' ministry we learn that since the Law could not provide for Eternal Life, Christ had to die and provide for an atonement that would last. He had to, in other words, "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus and Paul both taught that the law of Moses was always temporary.

The word “until” is used to denote this truth.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

  • I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

One only needs to ask if Jesus fulfilled the law? He said He did.

  • one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Jesus said the law wouldn’t pass away UNTIL it was fulfilled.



Again

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16


again


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Has the Seed come?
 
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 John 2:4
If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.
 
Jesus and Paul both taught that the law of Moses was always temporary.

The word “until” is used to denote this truth.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

  • I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

One only needs to ask if Jesus fulfilled the law? He said He did.

  • one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Jesus said the law wouldn’t pass away UNTIL it was fulfilled.



Again

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16


again


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Has the Seed come?
Absolutely! And Jesus told us when he fulfilled the Law.
Matt 26.55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

Luke 24.40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


This "fulfillment" is Jesus' atonement for our sins, giving us Eternal Life. It is not an endless extension of the Law, leaving our sins only temporarily atoned for by animal sacrifices, assuming we're even Jewish?

Perpetuating 613 requirements, including Sabbath Law, was only a package that perennially applied to sinful men who had need of a temporary covering. But once atonement was completely fulfilled in the death of Christ, sin needed covering no more. The Law, in its entirely, was fulfilled!

But it is true, the Law as a package remains perenially the same, replete with 613 requirements. Only it is no longer in service, having failed in the time of Jesus. Israel failed when they failed to receive Jesus as their Messiah.

But the good news is that Jesus' atonement provides not just for their sinful condition, but also for the sin of rebelling against him and rejecting him. It covers the complete failure of their contract with God under the Law. May the Lord have mercy on us all!
 
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