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THE SABBATH

Phoneman777 said:
The same Ten Commandments, which Scripture declares existed before Israel got to Sinai, applies to both covenants - the only difference being where the law is written.

"I will put My laws in their minds and write them on their hearts".

"Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. Not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart."
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Where does scripture say the Ten Commandments existed before Israel was given them at Sinai and apply to both |Covenants?
 
’Sabbath’ literally means “Rest” in Hebrew (‘Shabbat’). It is always helpful to know EXACTLY what one is talking about.
  1. In Genesis, GOD created the seventh day, blessed it and rested from His labors on it.
    • NOBODY EVER PROPOSES TO CHANGE THAT.
  2. Under the Covenant delivered by Moses, God commanded His Nation to celebrate a national SABBATH (Day of Rest).
    • NOBODY EVER PROPOSES THAT WE LIVE IN THE NATION OF ISRAEL.
  3. Jesus was RAISED on Sunday (the first day of the week), the Holy Spirit arrived at the church on PENTECOST SUNDAY (the first day of the week), and the Bible makes references to the saints meeting on SUNDAY (the first day of the week).
So the REFORMED / CALVINIST view all questions as “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture alone) matters, so what does Scripture TEACH us about the REST (SABBATH) of God? Opinions differ with individuals:
  1. Some believe the Commandment to Obey the Sabbath and keep it Holy is a MORAL LAW related to HONOR GOD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART.
    • Some NON-REFORMED insist on maintaining a seventh day sabbath as the day of both rest and worship, but not reformed.
    • Some REFORMED / CALVINISTS believe that SUNDAY is a new SABBATH day of rest and worship, consecrated by Jesus Resurrection and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
  2. Some believe that being SAVED is entering into a state of holiness where EVERY DAY is a SABBATH Day of rest from the labor of self-salvation and a day to worship the LORD with our every effort.
  3. Some believe that the OT Sabbath was a shadow of the post GLORIFICATION SABBATH. We are to labor while we are in this world and we enter into the REST OF GOD when we leave this world and join Him in heaven. Until then, all SABBATHS are shadows of the real SABBATH of being in the new Heaven and new Earth to worship God always and forever.
    • (This happens to be the dominant Particular Baptist view and the one that I hold).
 
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wondering said:
There's a difference regarding the Sabbath.
Reformed theology and Calvinist theology differ somewhat.

One believes the Sabbath was CHANGED.
One believes the Sabbath was ABOLISHED.

Could anyone here inform me which is which,
and what the difference is between CHANGED and ABOLISHED?

If not,
No problem.
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The Sabbath was abolished Wondering. Christians are not obligated to observe it Col 2:16,17
Interestingly I would bet I am not in error by saying everyone you know has violated it, and if it is still in force, there would be extremely few of us left.
 
Highway54 said:
The Sabbath was abolished Wondering. Christians are not obligated to observe it Col 2:16,17
Interestingly I would bet I am not in error by saying everyone you know has violated it, and if it is still in force, there would be extremely few of us left.
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Well, most western cultures give workers two days a week to rest, some for than others. And some places basically close down except for emergency services. Stores, where I have lived in Europe are closed on Sunday, for example. I think the idea of needed a day of rest is more than a legal matter, but this is not really answering the question. It is just that here aren't any interesting discussions on the site. Pretty boring indeed.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Reformed theology IS Calvinism, right?
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Calvinists follow John Calvin. The TULIP.
The Reformed follow the Confessions, there are at least 3 that I know of.
However, the beliefs are really the same, just said in different words -as far as I can tell.

I'm going to try to do an interesting study with atpollard in the CALVINISM FORUM
it's thread is 1689 CONFESSION.

Maybe you could join in?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Changed means the official Sabbath day and observance is now on Sunday, not Saturday.

Abolished means the Mosaic law of Sabbath with it’s requirements is now laid aside having become unneeded and obsolete by virtue of God’s people having been brought near to God in Sabbath Rest and holy convocation one time for all time through the new way of faith in Christ.

I suppose reformists/Calvinists believe both of these are true.
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One believes it was CHANGED.
One believes it was ABOLISHED.

But, apparently, no calvinist on here wants to discuss this.
It's really what I wanted to know.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Then you know that it is the Catholic Church that changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday and made it unlawful to keep a 7th day Sabbath. Most Protestants don’t know this and think God changed it. Or just think it’s always been on Sunday. As we can see, the Reformists carried this teaching with them into the Reformation.
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So then you DO believe that Catholicism is the very first church?
 
brightfame52 said:
Lets keep the threads on items that are traditionally viewed as calvinism in this forum if you dont mind, unless you can show the connection. And Just so you know, I consider items such as Total inability of man Spiritually, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Preservation of the Saints such Items, or matters derived from them. Thanks
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My question IS to calvinists.
Just that no one is picking it up,
or I didn't explain myself properly.
No problem, I think I'll move this thread.
 
Hidden In Him said:
So far we've got one Calvinist who obviously isn't particularly interested in answering the question, one Catholic who readily gave his within the first fifteen minutes, one Protestant who soon countered it with his own, one Seventh Day Adventist who is already hammering away at the SDA position to no end, and the guy with the best answer of all biting his lip because he's abiding by the OP's wishes to limit the scope of the discussion....

Love it when a plan comes together. :thumb
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Oh be nice!
:rollingpin


Going to move this.
I think Apologetics.
 
Highway54 said:
The Sabbath was abolished Wondering. Christians are not obligated to observe it Col 2:16,17
Interestingly I would bet I am not in error by saying everyone you know has violated it, and if it is still in force, there would be extremely few of us left.
Click to expand...
Abolished?
Not changed?
Doesn't Sabbath mean rest?
 
atpollard said:
’Sabbath’ literally means “Rest” in Hebrew (‘Shabbat’). It is always helpful to know EXACTLY what one is talking about.
  1. In Genesis, GOD created the seventh day, blessed it and rested from His labors on it.
    • NOBODY EVER PROPOSES TO CHANGE THAT.
  2. Under the Covenant delivered by Moses, God commanded His Nation to celebrate a national SABBATH (Day of Rest).
    • NOBODY EVER PROPOSES THAT WE LIVE IN THE NATION OF ISRAEL.
  3. Jesus was RAISED on Sunday (the first day of the week), the Holy Spirit arrived at the church on PENTECOST SUNDAY (the first day of the week), and the Bible makes references to the saints meeting on SUNDAY (the first day of the week).
So the REFORMED / CALVINIST view all questions as “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture alone) matters, so what does Scripture TEACH us about the REST (SABBATH) of God? Opinions differ with individuals:
  1. Some believe the Commandment to Obey the Sabbath and keep it Holy is a MORAL LAW related to HONOR GOD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART.
    • Some NON-REFORMED insist on maintaining a seventh day sabbath as the day of both rest and worship, but not reformed.
    • Some REFORMED / CALVINISTS believe that SUNDAY is a new SABBATH day of rest and worship, consecrated by Jesus Resurrection and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
  2. Some believe that being SAVED is entering into a state of holiness where EVERY DAY is a SABBATH Day of rest from the labor of self-salvation and a day to worship the LORD with our every effort.
  3. Some believe that the OT Sabbath was a shadow of the post GLORIFICATION SABBATH. We are to labor while we are in this world and we enter into the REST OF GOD when we leave this world and join Him in heaven. Until then, all SABBATHS are shadows of the real SABBATH of being in the new Heaven and new Earth to worship God always and forever.
    • (This happens to be the dominant Particular Baptist view and the one that I hold).
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Thanks Atpollard !

It sounds pretty much like what all Christians believe...or the differences I should say.

(now do I still move this to Apologetics??!)
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I’m guessing she’s alluding to the fact that the Catholic Church officially changed the Sabbath day from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week (the early church having merely added the first day of the week meeting), eventually outlawing the 7th day observance altogether and declaring anyone who keeps it anathema (accursed). Essentially saying the fundamental requirement for rest and convocation continue but just on a different day. While Protestants generally understand the Sabbath observance to have been abolished (laid aside) altogether.
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Accurate history, friend, which sadly seems to be unknown by many. Not only does the Catholic church claim to have changed the day "not by any direction given in the Scriptures, but from the church's own sense of divine power", they also boast that it is their "MARK of authority" and have actually gone so far as to openly mock Protestantism at "www.Romeschallenge.com" by asking why in the world do Protestants keep Sunday when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a change, and that it's a command of the catholic church?

They even go further in saying that keeping Sunday is an homage and a submission to the authority of the Roman Catholic church, and that "people who think the Bible alone should be their only creed should logically become Seventh-day Adventists and keep Saturday holy".

If I was a Protestant that kept Sunday, I'd be pretty upset and want to get to the bottom of all this.
 
Phoneman777 said:
Accurate history, friend, which sadly seems to be unknown by many. Not only does the Catholic church claim to have changed the day "not by any direction given in the Scriptures, but from the church's own sense of divine power", they also boast that it is their "MARK of authority" and have actually gone so far as to openly mock Protestantism at "www.Romeschallenge.com" by asking why in the world do Protestants keep Sunday when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a change, and that it's a command of the catholic church?

They even go further in saying that keeping Sunday is an homage and a submission to the authority of the Roman Catholic church, and that "people who think the Bible alone should be their only creed should logically become Seventh-day Adventists and keep Saturday holy".

If I was a Protestant that kept Sunday, I'd be pretty upset and want to get to the bottom of all this.
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The Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath to Sunday and neither you nor Jethro Bodine have proved any evidence that it did.
Nor have you given any evidence for all the anti-Catholic accusations above.

I do get tired of the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed on this forum.
 
Mungo said:
The Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath to Sunday and neither you nor Jethro Bodine have proved any evidence that it did.
Nor have you given any evidence for all the anti-Catholic accusations above.

I do get tired of the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed on this forum.
Click to expand...
How was the Sabbath changed from the last day to the first day?

If Peter was the Bishop of Rome, wouldn't be right to say that the CC changed the day?
 
Mungo said:
Where does scripture say the Ten Commandments existed before Israel was given them at Sinai and apply to both |Covenants?
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Hi, Mungo, thanks for the two questions. Please don't allow any preconceived notions to rob you of objectivity, as many do when confronted with challenges to a position. Rather, "come now, let us reason together".

ANSWER 1: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS EXISTED BEFORE SINAI​
Please keep in mind 1 John 3:4 KJV says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" - a law which was merely "codified" at Sinai, because we can infer from the following that the Ten Commandments existed and were well known from the beginning:

>Satan "hast sinned" in heaven, and a blind man can see his "sin" obviously had nothing to do with "lacking faith" in a time before faith came into existence and a place where it's unnecessary. Therefore, his "sin" had to do with "transgressing law". Which law? The First Commandment. Satan wanted to "be like the Most High".

>Adam and Eve broke every single one of the Ten Commandments. They wanted to be equal with God, dishonored their Father, showed His name had been taken by them in vain after choosing a new master, stole His property, brought death to themselves, coveted the fruit as desirable food, idolized it as a source of forbidden wisdom, lied in claiming their actions were the fault of another, exchanged their "rest" in God for toil and turmoil under a new master, and were unfaithful in their relationship with God.

>Cain knew better than to kill Abel and objected only to his punishment, not God's verdict.

>Abraham obeyed "statues, commandments, and My laws".

>Abraham knew it was wrong to lie to both Pharoah and Abimelech.

>Jacob knew is was wrong to lie to Isaac and later lamented it.

>Rachel knew better than to steal her father's idols

>His brothers knew when they sold Joseph into slavery they had "sinned".

>Joseph knew adultery was great "sin" against God.

>Moses knew it was wrong to kill the Egyptian, and fled when he saw his crime was known.

>Long before the reached Sinai, God rebuked the Israelites for transgression of His law, specifically the Sabbath, which is one of two reasons why the claim that the Sabbath began at Sinai and was for Israel is wrong.

ANSWER 2: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE PART OF THE NEW COVENANT​
>The Ten Commandment Moral Law of God and the Mosaic Law of ceremonies/sacrifices are Biblically distinct.

>God's Law is eternal from past to future, while the Mosaic Law began at Sinai and ended at the Cross.

>God says in His NC, He will write His laws on our heart - which can only refer to the Ten Commandments.

>The only difference between the OC and NC is where the Ten Commandments are written - the OC had them in stone and relied on man's promises to keep them, and the NC has them in our hearts and relies on God alone to live out His obedient life in us.

>The OC is popularly but erroneously claimed to be the law - in reality, the law was merely one component of the OC and blessings of God were the other component. The one side promised obedience and the other side promised blessings. What Paul said was "faulty" about the OC was not the "law" (which this same Paul says in another place is "holy, just, and good"), but it was the PROMISES which were faulty - namely Israel's promises - and is why in the NC God not only promises to bless those who are a part of it, but also promises to obey His law for them and grant them credit for what He has done via the indwelling power of Jesus.

> The proof that the OC is not synonymous with "law" is found in Romans 3:31 KJV. If we substitute "Old Covenant" with "law" and read the verse like that, here's what we get:

"Do we then make void the (Old Covenant) through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)."

Clearly, by this we see that "Old Covenant" and "Law" are not the same thing. ;)
 
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