THE SABBATH

[Phoneman777]

The Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath to Sunday and neither you nor Jethro Bodine have proved any evidence that it did.

From "The Convert's Catechism of catholic Doctrine", a book given to anyone who wishes to convert to catholicism:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the catholic church...transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Question: Does the catholic church have the power to institute festivals of precept?
Answer: If the church had not such power, she would not have been able to that with which all modern religionists agree: She would not have been able to substitute Sunday, the first day of the week, for Saturday, the seventh day of the week, A CHANGE FOR WHICH THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY".

Nor have you given any evidence for all the anti-Catholic accusations above.

I do get tired of the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed on this forum.

I think what you're referring to as "anti-catholic bigotry" is actually stone cold facts of history, my friend.

 

[JLB]

There's a difference regarding the Sabbath.
Reformed theology and Calvinist theology differ somewhat.

One believes the Sabbath was CHANGED.
One believes the Sabbath was ABOLISHED.

Could anyone here inform me which is which,
and what the difference is between CHANGED and ABOLISHED?

If not,
No problem.

The Sabbath that was added (along with the law of Moses) until the Seed should come has been abolished.

The day of rest God gave us in the beginning is eternal and points to the rest to come.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, Mungo, thanks for the two questions. Please don't allow any preconceived notions to rob you of objectivity, as many do when confronted with challenges to a position. Rather, "come now, let us reason together".

ANSWER 1: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS EXISTED BEFORE SINAI​

Please keep in mind 1 John 3:4 KJV says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" - a law which was merely "codified" at Sinai, because we can infer from the following that the Ten Commandments existed and were well known from the beginning:

>Satan "hast sinned" in heaven, and a blind man can see his "sin" obviously had nothing to do with "lacking faith" in a time before faith came into existence and a place where it's unnecessary. Therefore, his "sin" had to do with "transgressing law". Which law? The First Commandment. Satan wanted to "be like the Most High".

>Adam and Eve broke every single one of the Ten Commandments. They wanted to be equal with God, dishonored their Father, showed His name had been taken by them in vain after choosing a new master, stole His property, brought death to themselves, coveted the fruit as desirable food, idolized it as a source of forbidden wisdom, lied in claiming their actions were the fault of another, exchanged their "rest" in God for toil and turmoil under a new master, and were unfaithful in their relationship with God.

>Cain knew better than to kill Abel and objected only to his punishment, not God's verdict.

>Abraham obeyed "statues, commandments, and My laws".

>Abraham knew it was wrong to lie to both Pharoah and Abimelech.

>Jacob knew is was wrong to lie to Isaac and later lamented it.

>Rachel knew better than to steal her father's idols

>His brothers knew when they sold Joseph into slavery they had "sinned".

>Joseph knew adultery was great "sin" against God.

>Moses knew it was wrong to kill the Egyptian, and fled when he saw his crime was known.

>Long before the reached Sinai, God rebuked the Israelites for transgression of His law, specifically the Sabbath, which is one of two reasons why the claim that the Sabbath began at Sinai and was for Israel is wrong.

ANSWER 2: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE PART OF THE NEW COVENANT​

>The Ten Commandment Moral Law of God and the Mosaic Law of ceremonies/sacrifices are Biblically distinct.

>God's Law is eternal from past to future, while the Mosaic Law began at Sinai and ended at the Cross.

>God says in His NC, He will write His laws on our heart - which can only refer to the Ten Commandments.

>The only difference between the OC and NC is where the Ten Commandments are written - the OC had them in stone and relied on man's promises to keep them, and the NC has them in our hearts and relies on God alone to live out His obedient life in us.

>The OC is popularly but erroneously claimed to be the law - in reality, the law was merely one component of the OC and blessings of God were the other component. The one side promised obedience and the other side promised blessings. What Paul said was "faulty" about the OC was not the "law" (which this same Paul says in another place is "holy, just, and good"), but it was the PROMISES which were faulty - namely Israel's promises - and is why in the NC God not only promises to bless those who are a part of it, but also promises to obey His law for them and grant them credit for what He has done via the indwelling power of Jesus.

> The proof that the OC is not synonymous with "law" is found in Romans 3:31 KJV. If we substitute "Old Covenant" with "law" and read the verse like that, here's what we get:

"Do we then make void the (Old Covenant) through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)."

Clearly, by this we see that "Old Covenant" and "Law" are not the same thing. ;)

Great post!

 

[GodsGrace]

From "The Convert's Catechism of catholic Doctrine", a book given to anyone who wishes to convert to catholicism:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the catholic church...transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Question: Does the catholic church have the power to institute festivals of precept?
Answer: If the church had not such power, she would not have been able to that with which all modern religionists agree: She would not have been able to substitute Sunday, the first day of the week, for Saturday, the seventh day of the week, A CHANGE FOR WHICH THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY".

I think what you're referring to as "anti-catholic bigotry" is actually stone cold facts of history, my friend.

If you believe that the CC changed the Sabbath day, then you must also believe that the CC is, in fact, the first church.

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN MOVED TO APOLOGETICS.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Sabbath that was added (along with the law of Moses) until the Seed should come has been abolished.

​

The day of rest God gave us in the beginning is eternal and points to the rest to come.



JLB

Yes, sabbaths were added, but Paul was talking about the yearly ceremonial Feast day "sabbaths" in Leviticus 23 where they were called as such. They were added at Sinai and shown in Leviticus 23 to be separate and distinct from the weekly Sabbath by virtue of verse 38 which says they were "Besides the Sabbaths of the Lord thy God." God called these yearly sabbaths "your sabbaths" aka "Israel's sabbaths", while the "Sabbaths of the Lord thy God" were His Sabbaths that He established as a weekly memorial to creation.

Since it's clear the Ten Commandments existed all the way back to in the beginning, it's high time we stop misreading Galatians 3:19 KJV as if no law existed before Sinai and understand it as we ought:

"Wherefore serveth the (Mosaic ceremonial) law? It was added (to the Ten Commandment law at Sinai) because of transgressions until the Seed should come."​

​

The Ten Commandments, however, "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8 KJV).

 

[JLB]

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the catholic church...transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

What do you mean by observed?

Observe what?

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with anything.


Friday evening to Saturday evening is the 7th day of the week.

Sunday is the first day of the week, and is called the Lord’s day; referring to the day He rose from the dead.

Most Christians gather for Church on the first day of the week, Sunday.


Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
1 Corinthians 16:1-2





JLB

 

[JLB]

Correct, what was added were the "yearly ceremonial sabbaths" of Leviticus 23 which were "besides the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" which already existed.

That what it means when it says, "Wherefore serve the (ceremonial Mosaic) law? It was added (to the Ten Commandments) until the Seed should come". That's why it's OK to skip Passover, circumcision, firstborn offering, but it will NEVER be OK to steal, lie, worship other gods, or break the seventh day Sabbath ;)

The law of Moses whch includes the “10” Commandments, was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.


The Abrahamic Covenant including commandments, laws and precepts that Abraham learned directly from the Lord, but did not include the “Sabbath” law as seen in the law of Moses which included death to those who violated it.


There are many commandments that we are to obey in the New Covenant, however keeping the Sabbath is not one of them.



JLB

 

[Phoneman777]

Great post!

Praise the Lord, friend!

 

[Phoneman777]

If you believe that the CC changed the Sabbath day, then you must also believe that the CC is, in fact, the first church.

Believe me, friend, I do not say this with the intent to offend or flame anyone - while the CC believes it has changed the Sabbath day from the 7th to the 1st, as far as the Bible's concerned, it's still the 7th day.

Regarding the CC being the first church, Revelation 12:17 KJV says that after Jesus returned to heaven to begin His ministry of intercession as our High Priest:

"The dragon (Satan) was wroth with the woman (the church) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the last day church) which keep the commandments of God".​

​

A "remnant" of a thing is the last part of that thing which perfectly matches what was at the beginning of the thing, as does a remnant of carpet on a bolt of carpet or remnant of linen on a bolt of linen.

Since the CC claims to have changed God's law....and the remnant church is to be identical to the early church and keep the same law the early church kept....by virtue of their very own admission that they changed God's law they are prevented from tracing themselves back to the early church because the remnant church was prophesied to keep those same commandments as the early church. Is there a church in these last days that keep the same commandments as the early church and thus qualifies as the remnant church? Sure, I belong to it!

Do I believe there'll be catholics in heaven? Plenty! I've even had to tell ex-catholics who are convinced no catholic will be in heaven that God plainly says He "winks" when we unknowingly do things which we ought not do.

 

[Mungo]

From "The Convert's Catechism of catholic Doctrine", a book given to anyone who wishes to convert to catholicism:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Jethro Bodine said:

I’m guessing she’s alluding to the fact that the Catholic Church officially changed the Sabbath day from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week

Which you quoted and agreed with

Accurate history, friend, which sadly seems to be unknown by many.

Yet your quote clearly shows that the Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

And as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week

So it is you who have innacurate history

I think what you're referring to as "anti-catholic bigotry" is actually stone cold facts of history, my friend.

No, some of the things you claimed are not "facts of history". For example your claim about the Catholic Church

they also boast that it is their "MARK of authority" and have actually gone so far as to openly mock Protestantism

 

[Mungo]

Hi, Mungo, thanks for the two questions. Please don't allow any preconceived notions to rob you of objectivity, as many do when confronted with challenges to a position. Rather, "come now, let us reason together".

ANSWER 1: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS EXISTED BEFORE SINAI​

Please keep in mind 1 John 3:4 KJV says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" - a law which was merely "codified" at Sinai, because we can infer from the following that the Ten Commandments existed and were well known from the beginning:

>Satan "hast sinned" in heaven, and a blind man can see his "sin" obviously had nothing to do with "lacking faith" in a time before faith came into existence and a place where it's unnecessary. Therefore, his "sin" had to do with "transgressing law". Which law? The First Commandment. Satan wanted to "be like the Most High".

>Adam and Eve broke every single one of the Ten Commandments. They wanted to be equal with God, dishonored their Father, showed His name had been taken by them in vain after choosing a new master, stole His property, brought death to themselves, coveted the fruit as desirable food, idolized it as a source of forbidden wisdom, lied in claiming their actions were the fault of another, exchanged their "rest" in God for toil and turmoil under a new master, and were unfaithful in their relationship with God.

>Cain knew better than to kill Abel and objected only to his punishment, not God's verdict.

>Abraham obeyed "statues, commandments, and My laws".

>Abraham knew it was wrong to lie to both Pharoah and Abimelech.

>Jacob knew is was wrong to lie to Isaac and later lamented it.

>Rachel knew better than to steal her father's idols

>His brothers knew when they sold Joseph into slavery they had "sinned".

>Joseph knew adultery was great "sin" against God.

>Moses knew it was wrong to kill the Egyptian, and fled when he saw his crime was known.

>Long before the reached Sinai, God rebuked the Israelites for transgression of His law, specifically the Sabbath, which is one of two reasons why the claim that the Sabbath began at Sinai and was for Israel is wrong.

ANSWER 2: WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE PART OF THE NEW COVENANT​

>The Ten Commandment Moral Law of God and the Mosaic Law of ceremonies/sacrifices are Biblically distinct.

>God's Law is eternal from past to future, while the Mosaic Law began at Sinai and ended at the Cross.

>God says in His NC, He will write His laws on our heart - which can only refer to the Ten Commandments.

>The only difference between the OC and NC is where the Ten Commandments are written - the OC had them in stone and relied on man's promises to keep them, and the NC has them in our hearts and relies on God alone to live out His obedient life in us.

>The OC is popularly but erroneously claimed to be the law - in reality, the law was merely one component of the OC and blessings of God were the other component. The one side promised obedience and the other side promised blessings. What Paul said was "faulty" about the OC was not the "law" (which this same Paul says in another place is "holy, just, and good"), but it was the PROMISES which were faulty - namely Israel's promises - and is why in the NC God not only promises to bless those who are a part of it, but also promises to obey His law for them and grant them credit for what He has done via the indwelling power of Jesus.

> The proof that the OC is not synonymous with "law" is found in Romans 3:31 KJV. If we substitute "Old Covenant" with "law" and read the verse like that, here's what we get:

"Do we then make void the (Old Covenant) through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the (Old Covenant)."

Clearly, by this we see that "Old Covenant" and "Law" are not the same thing. ;)

No, the Ten Commandments did not exist before God gave them to Moses as part of their Covenant Law and none of your quotes mention "10 Commandments|".

That (Sinai/Mosaic) Covenant did not exist before God gave the to the Israelites in the desert.
The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.(Dt 5:2-3)

Yes, I agree that moral precepts found in the 10 Comandments existed before they were codified for the Siniai Covenant. But the "10 Commandments" as such were a sign of the Covenant and the legal code of the Covenant. Moreover one of those Commandments (Sabbath keeping) was specifically for the Jews.

 

[Mungo]

How was the Sabbath changed from the last day to the first day?

If Peter was the Bishop of Rome, wouldn't be right to say that the CC changed the day?

The Sabbath was not changed from the last day of the week to the first day.
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week.

Pope John Paul II
We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi! (Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, Pope John Paul II, 1998 – para 18).
We moved not the Sabbath moved.

Catechism of the Council of Trent
The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ.

 

[Mungo]

Long before the reached Sinai, God rebuked the Israelites for transgression of His law, specifically the Sabbath, which is one of two reasons why the claim that the Sabbath began at Sinai and was for Israel is wrong.

Where in scripture does it say that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Catholic Church did NOT change the Sabbath to Sunday and neither you nor Jethro Bodine have proved any evidence that it did.
Nor have you given any evidence for all the anti-Catholic accusations above.

I do get tired of the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed on this forum.

There are a lot of Catholic quotes about how the Catholic church changed the Sabbath on-line:

“The Question Box,” The Catholic Universe Bulletin (August 14, 1942): 4: "The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday."

https://truthrestoration.com/pdfs/QuotesFromTheCatholicChurchAboutTheSabbath.pdf

 

[Mungo]

There are a lot of Catholic quotes about how the Catholic church changed the Sabbath on-line:

“The Question Box,” The Catholic Universe Bulletin (August 14, 1942): 4: "The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday."

https://truthrestoration.com/pdfs/QuotesFromTheCatholicChurchAboutTheSabbath.pdf

As I have already shown authoritative statements by the Catholic Church say that the Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday (see post #53 above).

Comments by newspapers (even Catholic ones) or individual priests are not authoritative statements by the Catholic Church.

And as phoneman777 posted

From "The Convert's Catechism of catholic Doctrine", a book given to anyone who wishes to convert to catholicism:

Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

 

[atpollard]

The Sabbath that was added (along with the law of Moses) until the Seed should come has been abolished.

The day of rest God gave us in the beginning is eternal and points to the rest to come.

BINGO! What he said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I have already shown authoritative statements by the Catholic Church say that the Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday (see post #53 above).

Comments by newspapers (even Catholic ones) or individual priests are not authoritative statements by the Catholic Church.

And as phoneman777 posted

I'm aware that within its ranks the Catholic church can't agree on doctrine any better than Protestants, but at this point without diving into it any further I think this is another case of the Catholic church changing it's official doctrine to cover up it's error.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree.
I wonder if an argument for the MORAL could be made?

Yes.

14but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox or donkey or any of your livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest as you do. Deuteronomy 5:14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So then you DO believe that Catholicism is the very first church?

No, I do not believe Catholicism is the very first church.

The church in the time of the original Apostles is the very first church.