The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Fastfredy0]

nor does He force people to obey.

This statement is false if not qualified better. I assume you mean something more limited in scope.

Consider Jonah: Now Jonah reveals why he actually ran from God in the first place. He didn't want to go to Nineveh because he knew the power of God's Word. He despises the Lord's mercy. Jonah knew of the Lord's love for His creation, and he didn't want the people of Nineveh to experience God's forgiveness. Jonah was forced to go to Nineveh

1. Consider the Egyptians and the Israelites exodus:
But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels (FORCES) him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

2. Consider the Egyptians and the Israelites exodus:
And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians.
I suppose all the Egyptians could have given away their gold and silver of the own libertarian free will. *snickers at the negligible probability*

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please just quote scripture. There are thousands of so called “scholars” out there, and following their teachings only promotes strife and division.

This is not possible given the context of the discussion. Specifically, the context was the assertion that reformed theology teaches double predestination. Since, Reform teaching was developed 500 years ago or so and since the scriptures were completed 1900 years ago or so ... it is not possible for the Scripture to be used to determine whether or not Reform doctrine teaches double predestination.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Your theology says, believing is the result of salvation.

Incorrect.
Salvation does not lead to believing in my theology or Reform theology.

Aside: You can goggle ordo salutis if you want to study the subject.

Sorry but a person must first believe, then they are saved.

No need to be sorry ... we agree with one another with this statement.

 

[JLB]

This statement is false if not qualified better. I assume you mean something more limited in scope.

Did God force Adam to obey Him or did Adam have the choice to obey or disobey the Lord?

 

[JLB]

This is not possible given the context of the discussion. Specifically, the context was the assertion that reformed theology teaches double predestination. Since, Reform teaching was developed 500 years ago or so and since the scriptures were completed 1900 years ago or so ... it is not possible for the Scripture to be used to determine whether or not Reform doctrine teaches double predestination.

My point being, who cares what "Reformed Theology" teaches, since its just one of many doctrines of man and only serves to divide the Church.

Why not teach the doctrine of Christ, since it involves our salvation.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Incorrect.
Salvation does not lead to believing in my theology or Reform theology.

Aside: You can goggle ordo salutis if you want to study the subject.

I have the words of Christ.

No need to google anything.

 

[JLB]

Thats the Sheep that were Lost that Christ came to Save Jn 10:11,15, for all the Sheep went astray in Adam Isa 53:6, and Christ came to save them and effect Salvation for them.

Unfortunatly the scripture you refered to doesnt come close to saying what you claim.


JLB

 

[brightfame52]

No sir. That's where you fail to understand what the scriptures so plainly teach, because your mind only see's through a filtered preconcieved idea that was planted in you by a false teacher when you were first learning the word.

His sheep refer to His Church, born again Christians.

When a brother in Christ wanders away from Him and becomes lost, we are to go after thos lost brother to exhort him to repent, and turn back to Christ or his soul will be lost.


Here is Matthews version —


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

JLB

I disagree. I just told you

 

[brightfame52]

Unfortunatly the scripture you refered to doesnt come close to saying what you claim.


JLB

Yes it does.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but a person must first believe, then they are saved.


IOW, Salvation is the result of believing.

Your theology says, believing is the result of salvation.

Totally backwards.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


To be saved, one must believe.




JLB

A lost person cannot believe because the Gospel is hidden from them that are lost so they can't believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the words are in the order I desired/invented. They mean God loved the person enough to ensure that person was saved by regenerating them which caused them to believe.

Then I would ask that you do not attribute to me and ask me to explain phrases YOU have invented.
Thanks.


Also, first comes BELIEF
and then REGENERATION.

Paul said to the jailer:
BELIEVE and YOU SHALL BE SAVED
not
YOU SHALL BE SAVED and THEN BELIEVE
Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, ....”


God had overlooked the times of ignorance.....
But NOW God is declaring to men that ALL EVERYWHERE should REPENT.
They should repent so they could be saved. Not the other way around, which ONLY the reformed believe.
Acts 17:30-31
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

You are unclear on how much God loves everyone or whom he loves and why. So the discussion hit a dead end.

I'm not unclear about anything.
It hit a dead end because of the repetition.
You could repeat your lines as much as you want to...
it does NOT make them true.
God loves all His creation....and wishes that no one be lost.
Acts 17:30-31

I on the other hand am clear on whom God loves (favors) to the degree He saved them with 100% efficiency. The elect whom He chose are saved.

Where is it in scripture that God saved only the elect?
Post verses so they could be discussed.

I have the same conditions. You must believe. You believe because you have been regenerated. The verse does not say why you believe. That is why you rely on it, as you can insert the 'reason why' that suits your theology. I, on the other hand, can perceive that those verses do not tell my why I believed. I go to explicit verses for that info. If there were not other verses I would assume like you that I believe salvifically on my own.
Other verses: John 1:12-13, Eph. 2:8-19 (you guy like to twist so grace is the gift and not Faith), Romans 3:12, Phil. 1:29, yahda, yahda.

First of all SALVATION is the gift,,,,,
not grace and not faith --- but a combination creating salvation.
This is known through the genders in Ephesians 2:8 ---- if you like going to the Greek, please do so and find out.
Personally, I depend on scripture and my knowledge of the character of God, Who wishes that all men would be saved if they wanted to by their
own free will.

Matthew 11:21
20Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

If we believe the N.T. to be true and that the above is accurate, then we must ask:

1. Why does Jesus state that Chorazin WOULD HAVER repented long ago as if it were their free will choice......
Perhaps because it WAS their free will choice to repent? As it is also ours.

2. Jesus was not who He said He was, and He did not KNOW that it is GOD that predetermines EVERYTHING and that it is
the FATHER that did not predetermine that Chorazin would not repent.


I'll take number 1.

Again, I repeat, that are many, many verses saying you must believe to be saved and I concur. But most of these verses do not tell you why you believed. You can't see that. You assume the reason why you believe is yourself because that fits your theology.

O.K.

I agree with traditional Christianity.
There are different reasons why some are saved.....
but all of them CHOOSE to be saved.
They are not brought by force into heaven.

John 10:9
9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


I am the door, IF anyone enters through Me he will be saved.
NOT he will be saved and THEN will enter through me.

Also, the IF denotes that it must be done freely.
Again,,,did Jesus not know that the FATHER determines who will enter and who will not?

Please post scripture.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

A lost person cannot believe because the Gospel is hidden from them that are lost so they can't believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

You keep asking persons "have you not read Isaiah" or other books, as if they have not.
Now I ask YOU: Have you not heard of context?

You cannot take one line our of a chapter and use it to your liking.
Every verse means something specific.

Above you posted 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Now let's take a look at what the above verse is speaking about:

2 Corinthians 4:1-4
1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,
2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


1. Paul is speaking about his ministry and how God's mercy has helped him to understand and spread God's word. This is why Paul does not lose heart.

2. Paul is not ashamed of the gospel of good news...he does not try to teach what the bible does NOT say...thus Paul does not weaken the word of God,
he does not try to be crafty about it, but he appeals to every man's conscience. He does not use shameful methods.

3. The gospel is hidden to the one who is on the way to death, just as Corinthians 2:14 states that a natural man cannot understand the bible.

4. The god of this world (satan) has blinded unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of God. Satan tricks unbelievers to think they don't need God - we see this even today. If we are sorry for our sins and repent - then we will see the light of God and understand the truth.

Then Paul continues to speak about his ministry and how God has h elped him.



The steps to salvation are:

1. Know that you are a sinner.
2. Be sorry for this.
3. Repent.
4. Be forgiven and justified (saved).
5. Follow the path to sanctification.

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father !52

Quote Reply

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, according to REFORMED theology God determines all things; this summarizes your above quote. To do otherwise is to limit God's sovereignty. To do otherwise is to have man or angels or Satan or some other force control God in areas God so designates. Imagine, sons of the devil being given control of God's plan ... sounds and is ridiculous.

We've gone thru this several times.
God gave Adam and Eve free will.
Please show me where, in scripture, God took away this free will .... I've asked you several times now.

THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH states: God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

I don't really hold to the Baptist Confession of Faith.
I depend on the bible for my faith.
It tells me I am free to do as I morally wish with no hinderence from God but only advice from the Holy Spirit.

I posted Calvin's Institutes because that is where Calvinism comes from and you insist that I have it wrong. Which, of course, I do not.
The above states that God decrees everything and yet is not responsible for evil.
????????
It can state what it wishes, but that does not make it so.
Please use scripture.

I am not required to know all the confessions.
Thanks.

When you say: "There is nothing voluntary in calvinism". This shows you misunderstand this aspect of Calvinism. I see where you go 'off the rails'. I will make it simple with examples.
Example 1: I determined my son will go to the store. He doesn't want to go. I say, "here is $100, will you go now?" He voluntarily goes to the store for now he wants to. Yes, it is 'determinism' as I determine my son would go. It is also compatibilism because my son wanted to do (free will defined as doing what you want to most at the time) what I determined he would do.
Example 2: God knows NO ONE SEEKS God. He has selected (determinism) to save JOE who currently does not want to be saved and won't volunteer for he can't due to his depravity. Well, God's plan for JOE to hear the gospel. Joe is not initially convinced as he is depraved (son of the devil). The Spirit regenerates JOE (born again). Joe now willingly believes the gospel he hears (compatibilism ...God predestined "X" and the person wants to do "X" because God has regenerated him). Joe and God are in agreement.
Now, you don't believe this is how it works. That's fine, but at least try to understand the concept. Google "reformed compatibilism" to confirm my statement.

I understand the concepts in scripture.
Please use scripture.

What I posted from chapter 21 of the Institutes shows that you are wrong in your above statements.

I don't learn from Google,,,,I learn from Jesus' own words which do not confirm, BTW, what you are stating above.
In the reformed faith...which Calvin and Luther and others started only 500 years ago....
your son was predestined, determined, to go to the store.
(and also, you coerced him with the $100 bribe. GOD does not bribe).

Here is a definition by an Arminian of compatibilism
Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. “Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.” John Sanders

It's one thing to say you don't agree with reform doctrine. It's another to repeatedly misrepresent it even after being shown otherwise.
Aside: I am still waiting for you to supply a quote from John MacArthur saying GOD CREATES EVIL. (you got this doctrine wrong)
Aside2: I am still waiting for a quote from a credible reform source saying they believe in double predestination (you got reform doctrine wrong. Note: I even quoted where R.C. Sproul, a REFORMED scholar, showed your contention to be false and yet you still misrepresented REFORMED thought in this area. )

I like RC. His sermons are good.
His theology is wrong.

And I told you I wasn't sure it was Macarthur that stated God created everything, including evil.
It would Doug Wilson.
Here is the video -- it starts at about 10:00
He clearly states that God created evil.
And you should not be following any man --- you should be following JESUS.
As to double predestination: Just think about it:
If God determines who will go to heaven -- what happens to the others???
This is double predestination, no matter what Sproul states.
God does NOT send persons to hell for no reason at all.

 

[JLB]

I disagree. I just told you

You disagree that His sheep refers to Christians?


JLB

 

[JLB]

He said He died for the Sheep specifically Jn 10:11, 15 and He effected their Salvation by His death/Blood

You redefine what His sheep are, then take a idiomatic phrase and bend it into a literal statement.

Again, Jesus is rebuking the Pharisee’s as being hirelings, who are not good shepherds. Jesus is John 10 is teaching that a good shepherd stands when wolves come to devour the sheep. An inference to King David, of whom is a type of Christ.

Do you know what the wolf represents in this parabolic teaching?


Christ Jesus died for sinners.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8


When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
Mark 2:17


Do you believe Jesus died for sinners ?


Please answer this question.




JLB

 

[JLB]

A lost person cannot believe because the Gospel is hidden from them that are lost so they can't believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

So are you saying a person must be saved first, in order for them to believe?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Incorrect.
Salvation does not lead to believing in my theology or Reform theology.

Aside: You can goggle ordo salutis if you want to study the subject.



No need to be sorry ... we agree with one another with this statement.

Here is my question again from post number 215.


Im asking you to explain how you yourself believe and therefore teach people as to how they come to be “in Christ”.
Which refers to being saved.


Is it by believing the Gospel, or some other way?


As a staff member, I’m making sure false doctrine is not being spread throughout this community.


I’m going to insist you answer this question.



Please use scripture.



JLB

 

[JLB]

A lost person cannot believe because the Gospel is hidden from them that are lost so they can't believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

Same question for you, sir.


As a staff member, I’m making sure false doctrine is not being spread throughout this community.

Please explain how you believe a person comes to be “in Christ”. Which refers to being saved.


Is it by believing the Gospel, or some other way?


I’m going to insist you answer this question.


Please use scripture.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I’m asking everyone in this thread to refrain from posting until I get a straight answer from these two people about their doctrine.



Thank you.



JLB