The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[GodsGrace]

Not a problem from my point of view as I don't believe God loves (volition to favor) everyone the same amount. I agree, this is a problem from your view point.


Agreed ... billions of people were never told of the gospel. God is more than capable of ensuring that they did at least hear the gospel for 'libertarian free will' is of no use if the person(s) are ignorant of the choice ... this all assumes libertarian free will (indifference in regard to having salvific faith) is true.



Not sure what "God cannot love everyone to salvation" means. Sounds like you are saying God doesn't want everyone to be saved ... but that conflicts with previous statements you made. (confusing)
Again, people that have not heard the gospel are not saved by the gospel and therefore, since God did not give them a chance to believe one must conclude God does not favor (agape love = favor) them. Now, God could have had all people that would not be saved, be saved by dying before the age of accountability if He loved (favored) them ... but He didn't and therefore this is overwhelming evidence that God does not love (favor) everyone the same.
Aside: I read later that you don't believe God loves everyone the same. (I don't know why you believe now in this regard).

In post no. 185 you posted the following:

"Summary
If God loves (favors) everyone salvifically then He must love (volition to favor) "

YOU invented the phrase that God loves salvifically....not me.

God has conditions that must be met for salvation to occur.....
Acts 16:30-31

I don't know what you mean by "God loves His creation ... it lack definition. The rain falls on the good and the evil ones, and to that extent God loves (favors) everyone .....
Not sorry enough to save them, for He is more than capable of seeing everyone is saved. Example: billions of cases of those dying before the age of accountability.



This is in conflict with verses like:

• Eph. 1:4 I knew you before the foundation of the world [God knew who you would be so why change His mind] (note: Open Theists don't think God can't look into the future so for those Arminians this point is mute)
• Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
• Job 22:2 “Can a vigorous man be of use to God, Or a wise man be useful to himself? 3 “Is it any pleasure or joy to the Almighty that you are righteous? Or is it of benefit to Him that you make your ways perfect?
• God's immutability ... – God cannot be eternally what he was; that is, he cannot have a true eternity, if he had a new knowledge, a new purpose, a new essence; if he were sometimes this and sometimes that, sometimes know ‘this and sometimes know that, sometimes purpose this and afterwards hath a new purpose. Stephen Charnock

Aside: I've never heard the doctrine of "God hated us before and loves us". Favoring (loving) person(s) that one hates (disfavor) creates and perplexing conflict. "I died for you because I hate you but there is a small chance that I may love you if you by the theory of "libertarian free will" (indifference to situation such that you could choice to "A" or "B" in the same circumstance) change me mind even though Job 35:7-8 and Job Job 22:2 clearly state that God is not affected by ones act of righteousness.


Hmmm, then we are at an impasse as I don't understand your theology in this area. Who does God love and why? Who does God hate and hate? Does God hate everyone that never heard the gospel and thus sends to hell? Does he love everyone that dies before the age of accountability even though they did nothing to deserve it?
Maybe we are of the same opinion. God loves the elect and hates the non-elect. If so, we are in agreement.
????? But I am sure that is not where you are coming from.



Well, you may have your own definition. Dr. Google does not agree.

• " free will is incompatible with causal determinism, and agents have free will. They therefore deny that causal determinism is true. " .... incompatible with causal determinism = indifferent
• free will is logically incompatible with a deterministic universe .... [your will is not determined, it is indifferent] (Wikipedia)
• man operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” .... Gotquestion.org ... man destiny not determines by anything (indifferent)
• statistically, if libertarian free will be true then, like the flipping of a coin 1/2 would believe and 1/2 would not believe ..... that is emperically shown to be not true

Reformed and Free Will: Man is depraved so badly that none seeks God. Their father is Satan. God regenerates the elect causing them to change such as they, because of God's work, freely believe, repent and obey (the latter imperfectly)


Gee.... so you don't think God loves everyone the same .... I am so confused.... so many nuisances of belief.
So, the billions of people God does not present the Gospel too ... I guess you agree with me that God hates them?

I don't make up my own definitions.
I tire of repeating the same statements to you over and over.

If you want to post some verses that prove we don't have free will,
I'll be happy to answer...otherwise we're just wasting time here and I don't have much of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reformed understanding of salvation is not a FORCING of an individual to convert. It is convincing that God is who He says He is per the Bible. Your concept IMO is a God that loves (favors) you but not enough to convince you that He is who He says He is. My concept of God is one who loves (favors) me so much that He convinces me (I believe willing, not because there is a gun to my head) that He is who He says he is.
(You can google 'reformed compatibilism' to fix up your misconception or accept my cut&paste definition: "reformed compatibilism is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice." https://www.monergism.com/topics/free-will/compatibilism

My Shepherd efficaciously shows me the way to salvation and I follow willingly, your shepherd says, come and find me and if you do you will be saved. If you are a consistent Arminian you may leave the fold.

There is nothing voluntary in calvinism.



By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

source: Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Chapter 21, Paragraph 5

 

[for_his_glory]

The Sheep went astray and became lost. Have you not read Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

or havent you read the parable of the Lost Sheep Lk 15:4-7



The Sheep are sinners ! Now does it make since ? Didn't Christ come to save sinners which the Sheep are by nature like any others.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Are these the sheep that have gone astray from the time of Adam's day up to today until Christ returns?

I believe Noah was the only sheep at that time because he knew His masters voice and found grace as he alone had faith in God as he knew His Masters voice. The rest were utterly destroyed given no second chance. So will be on the last day when Christ returns as it is only those who have ears to hear the Shepherd calling unto to them that will return back and repent of their evil ways .

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I havent ignored it. Its the Truth

Then why do you not believe it?

 

[for_his_glory]

There are five requirements to Salvation on our part to receive Salvation through Christ.

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

 

[JLB]

The Sheep went astray and became lost. Have you not read Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

or havent you read the parable of the Lost Sheep Lk 15:4-7



The Sheep are sinners ! Now does it make since ? Didn't Christ come to save sinners which the Sheep are by nature like any others.

Yes, His sheep that wander away and become lost, have returned to being sinners, from which they at one time were justified.


This is what the New Testament teaches.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

His sheep who become lost are likened as sinners who must repent.


Do you believe the lost need salvation?




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Then why do you not believe it?

Who said I didnt believe it ? Show me where I said that, or admit that you have misrepreented me.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, His sheep that wander away and become lost, have returned to being sinners, from which they at one time were justified.


This is what the New Testament teaches.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

His sheep who become lost are likened as sinners who must repent.


Do you believe the lost need salvation?




JLB

Thats the Sheep that were Lost that Christ came to Save Jn 10:11,15, for all the Sheep went astray in Adam Isa 53:6, and Christ came to save them and effect Salvation for them.

 

[jerry63935]

you have misrepreented me.

lol i use to see that posted in carm

 

[jerry63935]

Thats the Sheep that were Lost that Christ came to Save Jn 10:11,15, for all the Sheep went astray in Adam Isa 53:6, and Christ came to save them and effect Salvation for them.

left field theology. where do you get we are saved ahead of time before we are saved?

 

[for_his_glory]

Who said I didnt believe it ? Show me where I said that, or admit that you have misrepreented me.

It is you that is teaching limited atonement. You have said repeatedly that Christ death effected salvation, but only to a certain elect and the rest will go to hell. In John 3:16 it is written that whosoever believes will have eternal life as God loves all of us and gives us a chance to repent and have eternal life through Christ. You twist it to say God has already elected/predestined those who are His own and there is no chance for others.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If God loves (favors) everyone salvifically then He must love (volition to favor) "

YOU invented the phrase that God loves salvifically....not me.

Yes, the words are in the order I desired/invented. They mean God loved the person enough to ensure that person was saved by regenerating them which caused them to believe.
You are unclear on how much God loves everyone or whom he loves and why. So the discussion hit a dead end.

I on the other hand am clear on whom God loves (favors) to the degree He saved them with 100% efficiency. The elect whom He chose are saved.

God has conditions that must be met for salvation to occur.....
Acts 16:30-31

I have the same conditions. You must believe. You believe because you have been regenerated. The verse does not say why you believe. That is why you rely on it, as you can insert the 'reason why' that suits your theology. I, on the other hand, can perceive that those verses do not tell my why I believed. I go to explicit verses for that info. If there were not other verses I would assume like you that I believe salvifically on my own.
Other verses: John 1:12-13, Eph. 2:8-19 (you guy like to twist so grace is the gift and not Faith), Romans 3:12, Phil. 1:29, yahda, yahda.
Again, I repeat, that are many, many verses saying you must believe to be saved and I concur. But most of these verses do not tell you why you believed. You can't see that. You assume the reason why you believe is yourself because that fits your theology.

I'll be happy to answer...otherwise we're just wasting time here and I don't have much of it.

O.K.

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is nothing voluntary in calvinism.



By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Yes, according to REFORMED theology God determines all things; this summarizes your above quote. To do otherwise is to limit God's sovereignty. To do otherwise is to have man or angels or Satan or some other force control God in areas God so designates. Imagine, sons of the devil being given control of God's plan ... sounds and is ridiculous.

THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH states: God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

When you say: "There is nothing voluntary in calvinism". This shows you misunderstand this aspect of Calvinism. I see where you go 'off the rails'. I will make it simple with examples.
Example 1: I determined my son will go to the store. He doesn't want to go. I say, "here is $100, will you go now?" He voluntarily goes to the store for now he wants to. Yes, it is 'determinism' as I determine my son would go. It is also compatibilism because my son wanted to do (free will defined as doing what you want to most at the time) what I determined he would do.
Example 2: God knows NO ONE SEEKS God. He has selected (determinism) to save JOE who currently does not want to be saved and won't volunteer for he can't due to his depravity. Well, God's plan for JOE to hear the gospel. Joe is not initially convinced as he is depraved (son of the devil). The Spirit regenerates JOE (born again). Joe now willingly believes the gospel he hears (compatibilism ...God predestined "X" and the person wants to do "X" because God has regenerated him). Joe and God are in agreement.
Now, you don't believe this is how it works. That's fine, but at least try to understand the concept. Google "reformed compatibilism" to confirm my statement.

Here is a definition by an Arminian of compatibilism
Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. “Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.” John Sanders

It's one thing to say you don't agree with reform doctrine. It's another to repeatedly misrepresent it even after being shown otherwise.
Aside: I am still waiting for you to supply a quote from John MacArthur saying GOD CREATES EVIL. (you got this doctrine wrong)
Aside2: I am still waiting for a quote from a credible reform source saying they believe in double predestination (you got reform doctrine wrong. Note: I even quoted where R.C. Sproul, a REFORMED scholar, showed your contention to be false and yet you still misrepresented REFORMED thought in this area. )

 

[brightfame52]

It is you that is teaching limited atonement. You have said repeatedly that Christ death effected salvation, but only to a certain elect and the rest will go to hell. In John 3:16 it is written that whosoever believes will have eternal life as God loves all of us and gives us a chance to repent and have eternal life through Christ. You twist it to say God has already elected/predestined those who are IHis own and there is no chance for others.

Please show where I said I don't believe Jn 3 16

 

[jerry63935]

its TIME shut this garbage down

 

[JLB]

Thats the Sheep that were Lost that Christ came to Save Jn 10:11,15,

No sir. That's where you fail to understand what the scriptures so plainly teach, because your mind only see's through a filtered preconcieved idea that was planted in you by a false teacher when you were first learning the word.

His sheep refer to His Church, born again Christians.

When a brother in Christ wanders away from Him and becomes lost, we are to go after thos lost brother to exhort him to repent, and turn back to Christ or his soul will be lost.


Here is Matthews version —


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, according to REFORMED theology God determines all things; this summarizes your above quote. To do otherwise is to limit God's sovereignty. To do otherwise is to have man or angels or Satan or some other force control God in areas God so designates. Imagine, sons of the devil being given control of God's plan ... sounds and is ridiculous.

It’s called free will.

God does not desire robots, nor does He force people to obey.




JLB

 

[JLB]

left field theology. where do you get we are saved ahead of time before we are saved?

That’s the false predestination doctrine of Calvinism.

Where people are saved first then they believe.




Totally unbiblical.



JLB

 

[JLB]

: I even quoted where R.C. Sproul, a REFORMED scholar, showed your contention to be false and yet you still misrepresented REFORMED thought in this area. )

Please just quote scripture. There are thousands of so called “scholars” out there, and following their teachings only promotes strife and division.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, the words are in the order I desired/invented. They mean God loved the person enough to ensure that person was saved by regenerating them which caused them to believe.

Sorry but a person must first believe, then they are saved.


IOW, Salvation is the result of believing.

Your theology says, believing is the result of salvation.

Totally backwards.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


To be saved, one must believe.




JLB