the security of our salvation

[Senior]

Well, let's give a readable translation a try ...
"So you must remain faithful ... If you do, you will remain
in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us."
(1 John 2:24-25, NLT)
And, voila, no need to discuss it any further.
Gee, I wish everything was as simple as this!

 

[JLB]

Your assumptive question assumes the “whoever” once had eternal life (was of God) to begin with. Yet the evidence says otherwise.

Not at all, “his brother” is clear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Another assumptive question
Did Abel’s “brother” stop have eternal life?
Or; Have you stopped beating your wife?

not as Cain, who was of the evil one and violently murdered his brother. And for what reason did he violently murder him? Because his deeds were evil and the deeds of his brother were righteous.1 John 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 3:12&version=LEB
A reasonable question based on this Passage would be more like; Did Cain have eternal life abiding in him???

Nope, he murdered his brother.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:14-15


Based on this passage, does s brother who hates his brother still have eternal life remaining in him?



JLB

 

[JLB]

when john wrote .that ye may may know you have eternal life .that is exactly what he wrote that we can know we are saved .

Amen.

Paul also wrote about this as well.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Romans 8:16-17


A beautiful and encouraging promise.


However, Paul also prefeces what he said in verse 16, with statements such as these.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:4-6


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14



JLB

 

[WIP]

for one i am not here to preach 2. are you telling me to leave this forum as i am not welcome? what does the rules say about posting on eternal security ? that is exactly where the post was headed at the last response .

You don't seem to like it or you are not comfortable when others call what you've written into question so I offered a suggestion that if you're purpose is to preach without having what you've written called into question then maybe you should choose a different forum instead of the Theology Forum. I did not say you should choose a different website. Going to a different website is purely your choice, not mine. I'm trying to give you some direction to help you.

 

[WIP]

look when i posted this i posted it under the theme the security of our salvation !!! i also posted this was not a license to sin.. but rather the promises of God.

I understand completely but what you are posting is being called into question by others and, as Peter instructed us, we need to be ready to give a defense for the hope that lies within us with gentleness and respect.

That is all I'm asking from you. Give a defense for the hope within you but do it with gentleness and respect.

 

[ezra]

Squabbling?

Your kidding, right?


You posted a thread with your scriptures, and I responded with a scripture.


How is that squabbling? LOL!!!


You have got to know people on this Forum have the right to discuss their views, when you start a thread.



It’s a very simple question.





Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Do you believe a brother who transgresses the doctrine of Christ, still has Christ?



JLB

against my better judgment i am going to answer this
TRANSGRESSION

trans-gresh'-un:

From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin. In the Old Testament pesha`, occurs 80 times, rendered in all versions by "transgression." Its meaning is "rebellion". The word "rebellion" differs from this word in that it may be in the heart, though no opportunity should be granted for its manifestation: "An evil man seeketh only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). Here the wise man contemplates an evil heart, looking for an excuse or opportunity to rebel. this would depend did he get convicted of this by the holy spirit ? have you ever stepped out of the boundaries ? have i yes do i still have Christ ? yes see here is your point your wanting to make ..you cringe at the word eternal security and my post WAS not about that . i took time out to explain what i was posting . in fact i explained this twice maybe 3 times . so in reality if you have ever sinned you transgressed .period here is a difference in how we can judge
Hebrews 12:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be [without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.]
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
King James Version (KJV)

verse 8 key verse how ever if we do sin here is what can be said
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: this is NOT a promotion if eternal security . but a PROMISE from God to his Children ..i do NOT promote either side of the argument.. i promote what God has promised for us a Born again child of God .
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

you bet ya there is another part of the message there is true wheat and fake wheat tares the tares are reserved for the fire ==eternal damnation .. before anyone makes a claim they best make sure they are truly wheat .truly saved..
man can only speculate the what if and when . nothing in the Bible says one can live like hell and have salvation . see for child of God i would hope like the prodigal son they would come to there senses and return . were not the Judge only the messenger. /we deliver the message sometimes it is not always pretty . i am preach at a church that has lost over 30 members .due to a blow up. my first message was point blank nor did i sugar coat it.. both sides feel to some degree they are in the right. the pastor 21 years old resigned .. most likely he was among some wolves in wait to devour him.

i have explained my post and my views ..i dont ask you or anyone else to agree with me.. but for God sake at least try to keep in context of the O.P .once again the post in the promises of God to those walking in the Light . if we are not walking in the light we have broken fellowship with God. it is in our best interest .to get back on the path . if we ignore God long enough we will not hear his voice ..then what i dont know nor do i plan on finding out... yes my grammar skills suxs

 

[ezra]

. I'm trying to give you some direction to help you.

i have direction from the HOLY SPIRIT thank you.. i have gave a defense i outline my post so clear that a highschool student could understand

 

[WIP]

i have direction from the HOLY SPIRIT thank you.. i have gave a defense i outline my post so clear that a highschool student could understand

In your opinion you outlined it well enough for a high school student. The problem is, there are those who disagree with your theology. I for one, don't agree 100% because I don't think you are taking the whole of Scripture into account but rather only a portion of it. There is too much in Scripture that speaks of remaining in Christ, falling away, grieving the Holy Spirit, and so forth. The Truth lies somewhere in there but I'm not convinced we really understand the Truth.

 

[JLB]

against my better judgment i am going to answer this
TRANSGRESSION

trans-gresh'-un:

From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin. In the Old Testament pesha`, occurs 80 times, rendered in all versions by "transgression." Its meaning is "rebellion". The word "rebellion" differs from this word in that it may be in the heart, though no opportunity should be granted for its manifestation: "An evil man seeketh only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). Here the wise man contemplates an evil heart, looking for an excuse or opportunity to rebel. this would depend did he get convicted of this by the holy spirit ? have you ever stepped out of the boundaries ? have i yes do i still have Christ ? yes see here is your point your wanting to make ..you cringe at the word eternal security and my post WAS not about that . i took time out to explain what i was posting . in fact i explained this twice maybe 3 times . so in reality if you have ever sinned you transgressed .period here is a difference in how we can judge
Hebrews 12:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be [without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.]
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
King James Version (KJV)

verse 8 key verse how ever if we do sin here is what can be said
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: this is NOT a promotion if eternal security . but a PROMISE from God to his Children ..i do NOT promote either side of the argument.. i promote what God has promised for us a Born again child of God .
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

you bet ya there is another part of the message there is true wheat and fake wheat tares the tares are reserved for the fire ==eternal damnation .. before anyone makes a claim they best make sure they are truly wheat .truly saved..
man can only speculate the what if and when . nothing in the Bible says one can live like hell and have salvation . see for child of God i would hope like the prodigal son they would come to there senses and return . were not the Judge only the messenger. /we deliver the message sometimes it is not always pretty . i am preach at a church that has lost over 30 members .due to a blow up. my first message was point blank nor did i sugar coat it.. both sides feel to some degree they are in the right. the pastor 21 years old resigned .. most likely he was among some wolves in wait to devour him.

i have explained my post and my views ..i dont ask you or anyone else to agree with me.. but for God sake at least try to keep in context of the O.P .once again the post in the promises of God to those walking in the Light . if we are not walking in the light we have broken fellowship with God. it is in our best interest .to get back on the path . if we ignore God long enough we will not hear his voice ..then what i dont know nor do i plan on finding out... yes my grammar skills suxs

So is that a yes or a no?


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9


Based on this passage,
Do you believe a brother who transgresses the doctrine of Christ, still has Christ?



JLB

 

[ezra]

So is that a yes or a no?


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9


Based on this passage,
Do you believe a brother who transgresses the doctrine of Christ, still has Christ?



JLB

i gave you my answer have a good night

 

[ezra]

In your opinion you outlined it well enough for a high school student. The problem is, there are those who disagree with your theology. I for one, don't agree 100% because I don't think you are taking the whole of Scripture into account but rather only a portion of it. There is too much in Scripture that speaks of remaining in Christ, falling away, grieving the Holy Spirit, and so forth. The Truth lies somewhere in there but I'm not convinced we really understand the Truth.

what part of being secure in him? let me guess you think the moment you sin that is it the end your bound for hell.. see you have cherry picked what you want " i covered all that " ..so you think grieving the holy spirit will cause you to go to hell?

The Truth lies somewhere in there but I'm not convinced we really understand the Truth.

wow you just got what my last post stated WE dont know every thing there is.. i want to congratulate you on I'm not convinced we really understand the Truth.. as a matter fact we Dont Lutheran baptist Methodist Pentecostal reformed Presbyterian or the church of Christ .the list goes on and on .guess what they all believe different when it comes to salvation/baptism the filling of the spirit and or the baptism of the spirit.. it depends on who you ask.... i gave scriptures of promise ..you dont even know what your disagreeing with me on.. i never said once we are saved there is nothing we can do to lose it. -- nor did i say we could lose it ..i said i have no plans on finding out.. what i do know is WE CAN KNOW we have eternal life !...:amen can you agree on that ? . my theology i posted is scripture .. i did not make this post to be popular or to get people on board to agree with me. i m not a ear tickler like jowl olsteen ..stand in front of a camera and smile . yes i stirred a hornets nest paul wrote we are to be stirred up. ..

 

[JLB]

i gave you my answer have a good night

You said a lot of things, but I didn’t really see an answer.


It’s ok, I understand.


I will give you my answer.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9


Based on this passage,
Do you believe a brother who transgresses the doctrine of Christ, still has Christ?


My answer is No.


Whoever transgresses the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


To utilize other scripture that may help us decide our answer, if the above verse isn’t clear enough, are listed as follows:


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Paul says it this way -


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Key word - heresies



Jesus taught us how to love God, and love our neighbor.

His doctrine (teaching) is how we go about doing that.


Those who violate this teaching, as well as teach others falsely, so they think it’s ok to live in sin, which is to hate God and hate God’s people, no longer have Christ.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12




JLB

 

[ezra]

JLB you seem to have all the answers .you keep asking about the lose of salvation. there is only one clear %100 way to know.. completely turn your back on Christ die in your sins. when you stand before the judgment seat of Christ there you will find your answer .

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12 i have life do you?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15 i dont hate any body do you ?
Whoever transgresses the doctrine of Christ does not have God. i dont have plans on transgress i have stated my case.. i realize for you to be satisfied you want me to say there is no such thing as eternal security .. that was never my intent on can or can you not... why is it you can not just respect my point of view. i have referenced the prodigal son.. even peter at one time turned his back on Christ denied him 3 times said i go a fishing . but yet he preached a powerful message 3 thousand souls saved . i am trying to be as nice as i can . no i am not very tactful with words nor is my grammar the best . if you want to discuss the Grace the mercy of God his love toward us . lets do it that would be great . what your wanting me to say is like muller
Subpoena people asking questions . if they are not careful they will be charged with lieing . both sides has scriptures to back up thee doctrine southern baptist yes osas. gen baptist osnas.. i am gen baptist but yet i preached in a southern baptist church also 2

 

[ezra]

Those who violate this teaching, as well as teach others falsely, so they think it’s ok to live in sin, which is to hate God and hate God’s people, no longer have Christ.

i have doubts they ever had Christ

 

[stovebolts]

Hi JLB
Quick question just for clarity so folks dont get the wrong idea.

We understand that there is willful sin and sin done in ignorance. And we know that one who has Christ will still sin. If we say we dont sin, we are liars. But God is true and just to forgive our sins if we confess them.

I see this as sanctification. We sin, but we have not lost our salvation...we are a work in progress and although we grieve the Holy Spirit, he does not leave us when we transgress.

How do you see sanctification?

 

[JLB]

I see this as sanctification. We sin, but we have not lost our salvation...we are a work in progress and although we grieve the Holy Spirit, he does not leave us when we transgress.

How do you see sanctification?

I definitely see sanctification as a process.


I don't see that we "lose our salvation", since we will receive the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith, or as an end result of our faith.

I do see see that we can become lost, in which we are no longer reconciled to God, and are as a sinner in need of repentance.

In this state of being lost, we are no longer justified, and must repent, return to God and be restored, of be lost for eternity.


This subject needs to be discussed openly and honestly, with the scriptures that teach us about this subject.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Jesus is teaching His disciples, the Church, what to do if one of His sheep should go astray, and how it pleases heaven if they should repent

Matthew goes into more detail about how a person is to be restored, as well as the principle of forgiveness for this restoration to take place.


James also deals with this, and gives us some insight, as well.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

1. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

2. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’​

3. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.​

James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• A brother who wanders from the truth, is a sinner in need of repentance, or he will perish.

JLB

 

[JLB]

i have doubts they ever had Christ

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20




JLB

 

[ezra]

I don't see that we "lose our salvation", since we will receive the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith, or as an end result of our faith.

I do see see that we can become lost, in which we are no longer reconciled to God, and are as a sinner in need of repentance.

In this state of being lost, we are no longer justified, and must repent, return to God and be restored, of be lost for eternity.


This subject needs to be discussed openly and honestly, with the scriptures that teach us about this subject.

that was not hard at all ..it would take a open mind led by the spirit to discuss this . as i have stated both sides has scriptures to prove there doctrine . i refrained from saying either way . my only point is at what point we become lost again? what few that i know that made a profession to salvation simply does not lead the life in Christ . to be honest they never stuck with it very long . so i question did they get really saved . a conversation i had with my brother on baptism. he is a pastor was baptizing folks or had already .really dont remember .i said it seems much emphasis was place on baptism . i see the need for salvation. his remark we only baptize let God do the rest.. i agree but i still put more emphases on being saved than baptism . i do believe in both.. .a thought come to mind were discussing can we or can we not.. for those who have went back to the old life style .. maybe shame on us for not doing our job...
Galatians 6:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

how quick are we to go them in love try to get them back on track..?

 

[ezra]

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20




JLB

JLB i know the scriptures how quick are we to let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

this falls under Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. we sin when we fail to do good we sin when we fail to attempt to restore