The Seven Seals

[^Lazarus]

John obviously did not see the birth of Christ, so that rules that out.

sorry to have to disagree with you here but john did too see the birth of Jesus in his vision here:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

You are proving my point.

nope, i'm not, in fact i'm proving just the opposite of your point.

Then we come to Rev 4, and then Jesus tells him, that now he will be shown only the things "hereafter"

sorry but the text does not say the word "only" in the verse you quoted, that is "only" your idea of what it means.

i've already proven using ch 17 that john wrote about both past, present and future, nowhere is he told not to do so.

edited to correct spelling,

 

[Cornelius]

I never argue to convince people anymore You are really welcome to believe the way you believe.

blessings
C

 

[Ret]

i think you forgot about this verse

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

yup, past, present, and future, all in one book

• Ecclesiastes 3:15
  
  15 That which hath been is now;
  and that which is to be hath already been;
  and God requireth that which is past. KJV

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi Cornelius,

You are taking the idea of "the sealing" of the 144,000 just prior to the tribulation way too far. Jesus does not "literally" become the Holy Spirit. It is rather the Holy Spirit who indwells within the believer, and the indwelling spirit would not need to return from heaven. The resurrected Jesus is at the Father's right hand, explained in Revelation 12:5. You're also ignoring a very significant point in verse 17:

"the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Who is this remnant of her seed? Her seed is Christ, the Man Child. There is the Man Child (Jesus) and ALSO the remnant of the Man Child. The Church (saints) is the remnant of the Man Child. It is the believers in Christ that ultimately emerged as the remnant of the seed of Israel after the ascension of the Man Child into the Heaven (Revelation 12:5). It is those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The dragon was enraged with the woman but could not destroy her because the Earth helped her. Then the dragon turned towards the remnant of her seed and went to make war with them. Notice; it is the remnant OF her offspring; the Man Child (Jesus Christ). Who are the remnant again?

"the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

I don’t mean any disrespect Cornelius, but I think you're getting things a little mixed up.

 

[Cornelius]

I don’t mean any disrespect Cornelius, but I think your getting things a little mixed up.

I have been on forums a long time, and its really not a case of me getting mixed up, its just that at this point , I know through experience, fewer and fewer people starts to see. We have now just come to a split in the road, regarding our agreement . I am not going to tell you that you are mixed up, because I truly believe that God is 100% sovereign even to the point where He shows us things .........or not.

It took me a while to understand the man child as the leadership of the end time church, but once God opened it , I started seeing it throughout the Bible. Christ manifest is THE teaching of the Word and yet it is not taught. And when people do, it becomes distorted and the focus moves unto the flesh and not unto Christ. When we see this as anything to do with us (other than us being the vessels ) we are going off the track. The gospel is and must be always Christ-bound. The man child teaching is Christ bound, so it cannot be wrong.

Forgive me for saying this, but God also took things really far. So far, that Jesus had to die. He totally reversed the curse (contrary to popular doctrine) and became our substitute. Here is an example of the Bible also going to the extreme: 1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. Do we? And this one: 1Jn 4:17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world. Are we?

Anyway, I am off to bed. Its late where I live.

Ask the Lord , if I am wrong.

blessings
C

 

[Vic C.]

Ask the Lord , if I am wrong.

Question:

What if he has already and got his answer?

 

[researcher]

Well, good morning sunshine. What are you doing up so early Jeff?

;) :D

I was doing online banking! My employer messed up my account. :\

Sometimes I wonder why I still work for them. :\ Best Buy.. hmmmm. >_< ;) :D

 

[Osgiliath]

I wrote:
I don’t mean any disrespect Cornelius, but I think your getting things a little mixed up.

Whoops. Can't fix your spelling errors once they have been quoted. Guess I should proof-read BEFORE I hit the submit button. Oh well. :D (your - you're).

Originally posted by Cornelius
Christ manifest is THE teaching of the Word and yet it is not taught. And when people do, it becomes distorted and the focus moves unto the flesh and not unto Christ.

I agree, and that is why we've been having a great conversation concerning the firstfruits. However, there is a time for allegory, and a time for the literal. Over-spiritualizing is also a danger; and allegorizing things that should not be allegorized is just as precarious as being too literal. There is a happy medium; and that happy medium is known as rightly dividing the Word. No biggie, we just disagree here. Let's not allow it to stifle further discussion, because I've enjoyed it.

 

[Ret]

Christ manifest is THE teaching of the Word and yet it is not taught. And when people do, it becomes distorted and the focus moves unto the flesh and not unto Christ. When we see this as anything to do with us (other than us being the vessels ) we are going off the track. The gospel is and must be always Christ-bound. The man child teaching is Christ bound, so it cannot be wrong.

blessings
C

• Romans 8:18-19
  
  18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
  
  to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
  
  19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
  the manifestation of the sons of God. KJV :amen

Agreed, truth becomes distorted and the focus moves unto the flesh and not unto Christ.
The manifestation of the sons of God...? means what...? Jesus starts with Himself...

• John 12:23-24
  23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come,
  that the Son of man should be glorified.
  
  24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
  fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone:
  but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. KJV

Yess...distasteful to the flesh...the death of the saints, is what brings glory to God. Jesus told Peter what would happen to him at the end of his life and the 'kind of death' in which Peter would 'glorify God' John 21:18-19. Is anyone offended at this? I was offended, when the thought first came to me!

 

[Cornelius]

Thanks Ret, yes the "death to self" is the key for Christ to manifest in us. Death to self is not discussed on many forums, and when one tries to, they mostly understand it to be a physical death of the body. The "flesh" is just seen as the body and the fact that the Bible calls the "Old nature" the flesh too, is not understood.

Dying to self (the seed that falls into the ground ) is not a favorite topic anyway. Why? Because the flesh hates to hear about its own death. The old nature in all of fights for survival and its at enmity with God. Christ (the New Man, or New Nature) is sharing the physical body with the old nature at this moment. We are allowing one or the other to grow. Depending on which one pr One we feed, that one or One will grow and dominate the other.

I know I am oversimplifying this a bit, but that is just an easy way to start. We then must look at scriptures like Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. In believing this scripture to be 100% true we feed the New Man. The old man will starve the longer we believe this to be 100% true. That is why we can look into the imaginary mirror and see "the glory of the Lord" and so be transformed into what we see, by the Holy Spirit. 2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit. So we in fact are transformed into what we see. If we see ourselves as "sinners saved by grace" , well then that is what we will be transformed into. If we see ourselves as dead and crucified, (Gal 2:20) and we see that its now Christ that lives in us ; Christ can now be formed in us through the help of the Holy Spirit.

This is indeed to be "born from above" as Jesus said.Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

We are either being "born from beneath" or " born from above" (where Christ is)

 

[Cornelius]

I agree, and that is why we've been having a great conversation concerning the firstfruits. However, there is a time for allegory, and a time for the literal. Over-spiritualizing is also a danger; and allegorizing things that should not be allegorized is just as precarious as being too literal. There is a happy medium; and that happy medium is known as rightly dividing the Word. No biggie, we just disagree here. Let's not allow it to stifle further discussion, because I've enjoyed it.

I am fine with disagreement , the Bible says: Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: Which incidentally also refers to the manifestation of the sons of God. We see this scripture talking about 1) Christians coming into agreement (not happened yet) 2)"unto a fullgrown man" (man child) 3) The the stature of the fullness of Christ. (Manifesting Christ).

If you prefer, we can look at the Man-child ministry rather from just the Old Testament? In that way, we know that everything is really for an example for us.

I would also like to know what it is exactly that you think is being overspiritualized so that I can give you my view, which must be Biblical or else its just MY view (and I must throw it out) The Bible teaches us that we must have at least two witnesses (ah, there they are again ) before we can believe any matter. So we need two find at least two scriptures that teaches the same thing, before we can call it doctrine. That is a safe way to proceed.Deu 19:15 ......at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established. This is Godly principle that does work in all matters. Its interesting , but God is also sticking to this in the end times calling them "two witnesses" because they going to testify against the whole world, and its their testimony that will "legally" condemn the world. God always sticks the His Word

 

[Cornelius]

Just a thought on the side:

Have you ever wondered why on a thread like this, that there are so few people who share, can share, want to share ? I would think that manifesting Christ and the "how" would be on the top of our list. But in all the years I have been on forums, its the very last thing they want to talk about. It does tell us something about the priorities of Christians today.

 

[whirlwind]

Thanks Ret, yes the "death to self" is the key for Christ to manifest in us. Death to self is not discussed on many forums, and when one tries to, they mostly understand it to be a physical death of the body. The "flesh" is just seen as the body and the fact that the Bible calls the "Old nature" the flesh too, is not understood.

Where Ret said....."Yess...distasteful to the flesh...the death of the saints, is what brings glory to God. Jesus told Peter what would happen to him at the end of his life and the 'kind of death' in which Peter would 'glorify God' John 21:18-19. Is anyone offended at this? I was offended, when the thought first came to me!" I see as more than "dying to self."

You can't become a "son of God" without first "dying to self" but....the death of the body is part of this. More will be required of the man child than the others.....that is why they are the man child in the leadership position. "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." [Luke 12:48]


Paul addresses what is required of the man child ministry as well as the elect...

• 11 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; (7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
  
  4:10-12 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

There appears to be a separation made by Paul in the bodies of whom Jesus manifests Himself (they are those "delivered unto death") and those for whom the dying is done...."but life in you." "We which live," are spiritually alive and "are alway delivered unto death for Jesus," which to me means....dying to self. That process allows Jesus to manifest in us, in our physical bodies, and that in turn allows others to also live spiritually as His Word is spread.

• 4:15-17 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might, through the thanksgiving of many, redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
  
  5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

As the outward man must also perish will it not be the man child that will follow the example of Jesus...in their deaths? Everything I see points to it being the man child that must not only die to self but physically perish. You have said that God counts dying to self as physical death but I ask again...why you believe that and where is it written? If not written is there a type showing this?

 

[whirlwind]

That may be but, that isn't written. To me, it is the opposite in that they, as leaders, follow Jesus and it is they that are slain.

You forget, they have already done this 100% so they cannot do it again.

They were fully obedient to:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Also it is written, although not in so many words. Its written in the spiritual understanding about death to self. Also their authority as "Christ manifest". We can barely understand what it will be like although the Bible does tell us:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.


It also tells us that we can be like Him ..........in this world.

1Jn 4:17 ............ as he is, even so are we in this world.

I just read a post by Researcher in which he quoted a verse. When I read it I had to smile as the following Scripture came to mind....

• Isaiah 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it," when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

It is no accident that we are given to see things at a certain time and place. He leads and we follow. His quote was...

• Exodus 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seeth a kid in his mother's milk.

That verse has to do with this post. It shows that there is a separation of the firstfruits....all are firstfruits as all the 144,000 are firstfruits (and I believe that group also represents the two witnesses) yet some go to the Father before the others. All, as they are firstfruits, have "died to self" yet some remain....they are those that are changed in an instant. As the first of the firstfruits, the sacrifice, preceed the others then the first to go are the man child.

 

[Cornelius]

HI WW. Sorry, I think I have been neglecting you a bit. There are so much to talk about, that sometimes I run out of steam.

Here is my understanding of why the Man-child will live:

(By the way, you do know that the word martyr comes from the Greek word for witness ? )

We come to this earth to die. That is our main objective. Jesus said, if we do not do this, we......cannot............be His disciples. Its a condition to salvation.Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Without death to self we cannot enter the Kingdom. That is also a fact, that Jesus points out (even though the church has made up its own new rules, this is still in effect )Luk 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. and again He says it here Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Please realize the cross is not a heavy object as in a 'burden" that the modern church has told you it is, it is in fact an object of execution. Those who carry crosses are following Jesus unto death to self.

OK, now here is one of the main scriptures. Please see what happens to those who have lost their lives: as we know the man child has done:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. The man child has lost their lives, so they will preserve it. The next scripture I think you know well. The man child has manifested Christ, so they have found the secret place of Psalm 91. This is the perfect place to reach in our walk with God.

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He will cover thee with his pinions, And under his wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 For thou, O Jehovah, art my refuge! Thou hast made the Most High thy habitation; (Please see this, they have made the Most High their habitation ! They are IN Christ )
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, Neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
Psa 91:11 For he will give his angels charge over thee, To keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, Lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the serpent shalt thou trample under foot.
Psa 91:14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psa 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble: I will deliver him, and honor him.
Psa 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, And show him my salvation.


This is the privilege of those who have truly die to self. The man child.

Now look at what Jesus said and see that He also "laid down His life ". ONCE so that He can take it up again.(The man child has followed this pattern )

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
Joh 10:18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

As Christ manifest, they too walk in this truth. They do not have to lay down their lives twice , we all have to lay it down once. Please note that NONE can take their lives from them.

People who do not know enough about the man child and end times, will wonder why this has not happened to others in the past. It has to do with the timing . Certain things will only come to pass during the end times. They are needed during the tribulation.

 

[Cornelius]

That verse has to do with this post. It shows that there is a separation of the firstfruits....all are firstfruits as all the 144,000 are firstfruits (and I believe that group also represents the two witnesses) yet some go to the Father before the others. All, as they are firstfruits, have "died to self" yet some remain....they are those that are changed in an instant. As the first of the firstfruits, the sacrifice, preceed the others then the first to go are the man child. [/b]

There will indeed be a harvest of all of God's people . The man child being the "first" of the first fruits. We have to base our understanding on more than just one scripture like this, we have to follow the revelation throughout the Bible to form a complete picture. Psalm 119:160 says, "The SUM of they word is truth"

You must try and see that even some of the types and shadows do not follow through and they need others to complete them. Look at Moses (a man child type) who did NOT enter into the promised land. If we would force Moses's type to stick to the man child 100% then we must say "The man child does not enter into the Kingdom" but we know, when we look at the rest of the types and shadows , that , that is not true. We can take Joseph and we see that the Man-child ministry gets to rule as second in command in the Kingdom. We can confirm this, when we look at Mordechai (another man child type) and see he too rules next to the King :Est 10:3 For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.

So its a prayerful walk and a seeking.We cannot jump to conclusions and then teach them to the people of God, unless we do not fear God and His Word.

 

[Cornelius]

I forgot to add, that the word "first" in that verse also has the meaning "best" and "firstfruits" linked to it.

H7225
ר×Âש×Âית
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

So its speaking of the general harvest and pointing to the man child here. Revelation is more specific in calling them the first fruits with the implication of more fruit to follow too.

By the way Ex 23 is a perfect description of the six thousand years work and then the seventh being the millennium of peace. We also see the seven year tribulation and the Unleavened Bread of the Word being served during this time. And the man child ministry is shown in the first fruits.

Exo 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest; that thine ox and thine ass may have rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the sojourner, may be refreshed.
Exo 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you take ye heed: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exo 23:14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
Exo 23:15 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep: seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, (Here is the tribulation ! ) as I commanded thee, at the time appointed in the month Abib (for in it thou camest out from Egypt); and none shall appear before me empty:
Exo 23:16 and the feast of harvest, the first-fruits of thy labors, which thou sowest in the field: and the feast of ingathering, at the end of the year, when thou gatherest in thy labors out of the field.
Exo 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord Jehovah.
Exo 23:18 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my feast remain all night until the morning.
Exo 23:19 The first of the first-fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring into the house of Jehovah thy God

Amazing !

 

[whirlwind]

That verse has to do with this post. It shows that there is a separation of the firstfruits....all are firstfruits as all the 144,000 are firstfruits (and I believe that group also represents the two witnesses) yet some go to the Father before the others. All, as they are firstfruits, have "died to self" yet some remain....they are those that are changed in an instant. As the first of the firstfruits, the sacrifice, preceed the others then the first to go are the man child. [/b]

There will indeed be a harvest of all of God's people . The man child being the "first" of the first fruits. We have to base our understanding on more than just one scripture like this, we have to follow the revelation throughout the Bible to form a complete picture. Psalm 119:160 says, "The SUM of they word is truth"

You must try and see that even some of the types and shadows do not follow through and they need others to complete them. Look at Moses (a man child type) who did NOT enter into the promised land. If we would force Moses's type to stick to the man child 100% then we must say "The man child does not enter into the Kingdom" but we know, when we look at the rest of the types and shadows , that , that is not true. We can take Joseph and we see that the Man-child ministry gets to rule as second in command in the Kingdom. We can confirm this, when we look at Mordechai (another man child type) and see he too rules next to the King :Est 10:3 For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.

So its a prayerful walk and a seeking.We cannot jump to conclusions and then teach them to the people of God, unless we do not fear God and His Word.

Oh...I'm seeking. :yes I don't believe it is jumping to conclusions for as I said....everything I see points to it being the man child that shall be slain. I don't understand why you are using the example of Mordecai in this situation for, as far as I can tell, there isn't mention of anyone being killed that would serve as a type for the killing of the two witnesses....but, admittedly, I'm not that familiar with Esther.

When is Haman (Satan) hung on the gallows in place of Mordecai the Jew, the one Haman wanted to kill?

• Esther 7:10 So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified[/i]."

In types, this speaks of an event that will take place after this age ends...so, when Mordecai the Jew (the man child) was next unto king Ahasuerus (our Savior) it is after this age. Although I agree that he is a type of the man child there is no example given of anyone (man child, 144,000 or the two witnesses) being slain by the beast.

 

[Cornelius]

WW, this is a good time to go before the Lord and ask Him for clarification. I am serious, if you want to understand this properly, you need to ask at this time. I cannot give you this understanding for some reason and that points to the Lord Who is preventing this. He knows what He is doing.

I know you are serious and that you have been faithful for many years. I saw this even on Shekel's forum. But now and then we hit a snag, and then it means prayer. Or stay where we are.

God gave me this scripture this morning. It jumped out: Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God.



That is the answer. He must show you and He will if you are willing to lay aside all preconceived ideas before Him and tell Him you only want HIS truth.
blessings
C

 

[whirlwind]

HI WW. Sorry, I think I have been neglecting you a bit. There are so much to talk about, that sometimes I run out of steam.

Here is my understanding of why the Man-child will live:

(By the way, you do know that the word martyr comes from the Greek word for witness ? )

We come to this earth to die. That is our main objective. Jesus said, if we do not do this, we......cannot............be His disciples. Its a condition to salvation.Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Without death to self we cannot enter the Kingdom. That is also a fact, that Jesus points out (even though the church has made up its own new rules, this is still in effect )Luk 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. and again He says it here Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Please realize the cross is not a heavy object as in a 'burden" that the modern church has told you it is, it is in fact an object of execution. Those who carry crosses are following Jesus unto death to self.

I agree.

OK, now here is one of the main scriptures. Please see what happens to those who have lost their lives: as we know the man child has done:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. The man child has lost their lives, so they will preserve it. The next scripture I think you know well. The man child has manifested Christ, so they have found the secret place of Psalm 91. This is the perfect place to reach in our walk with God.

I can't believe we are so in agreement and yet....so far apart in this. Normally, I would let this go but this aspect of the man child is very, very important to understand.

The above verse tells me....if we try to save our life (which is speaking of happening during the tribulation) then...we lose our spiritual life. Those that fall for the deception, take the mark, will be spiritually dead. But, the firstfruits...who die to self and die a physical death (not trying to preserve their life when delivered up) ...they will preserve it SPIRITUALLY. Their flesh will die but they will live...eternally.

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.
Psa 91:3 For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.

We are delivered from Satan's deception because we know who he is and when he arrives. We won't fall into a snare. As the following verse shows...it is His truth that protects us.

Psa 91:4 He will cover thee with his pinions, And under his wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee.

And...they shall fall. The whole world will fall for the deception.

Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 For thou, O Jehovah, art my refuge! Thou hast made the Most High thy habitation; (Please see this, they have made the Most High their habitation ! They are IN Christ )

I love that!

Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, Neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
Psa 91:11 For he will give his angels charge over thee, To keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, Lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Evil can't touch our spirit. Evil is Satan and he is the stone that the witnesses (the feet of Christ) will not be hurt by.

Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: The young lion and the serpent shalt thou trample under foot.
Psa 91:14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psa 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble: I will deliver him, and honor him.
Psa 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, And show him my salvation.

He will set the man child on high, He will be with them during the tribulation (as He was with the three Hebrew children in their tribulation). Their long life is their eternal salvation.

This is the privilege of those who have truly die to self. The man child.

Now look at what Jesus said and see that He also "laid down His life ". ONCE so that He can take it up again.(The man child has followed this pattern )

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
Joh 10:18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

That is my point C....as Jesus laid down His life and is the pattern for the man child then.....they must also lay down their lives. They have already died to self and so they are spiritually as He was when He was in His flesh body but, as He had to physically die...so do they.

As Christ manifest, they too walk in this truth. They do not have to lay down their lives twice , we all have to lay it down once. Please note that NONE can take their lives from them.

I agree that NONE can take their lives. They must willingly allow this.

• John 15:12-13 This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

They have died to self....there is the body celestial and the body terrestrial...there are two parts to the equation of death. They have not yet shed their flesh body. All will have to do this except those living when Christ returns with the Saints. The man child is/are the saints. They were slain, rose and return with crowns upon their heads with the Savior. They are the kings of [Rev.20:6], the first of the firstfruits. They then meet those who were not killed as they were and those, also firstfruits, are changed in the twinkling of an eye. They are the priests of God. Then Jesus, The King and His elect, are the kings and priests of God. They will not face the second death as they are immortal.

People who do not know enough about the man child and end times, will wonder why this has not happened to others in the past. It has to do with the timing . Certain things will only come to pass during the end times. They are needed during the tribulation.

Yes, they are needed then. They will be called to testify and the Holy Spirit will speak through them bringing many souls to God.