The Seven Seals

[whirlwind]

WW, this is a good time to go before the Lord and ask Him for clarification. I am serious, if you want to understand this properly, you need to ask at this time. I cannot give you this understanding for some reason and that points to the Lord Who is preventing this. He knows what He is doing.

I know you are serious and that you have been faithful for many years. I saw this even on Shekel's forum. But now and then we hit a snag, and then it means prayer. Or stay where we are.

God gave me this scripture this morning. It jumped out: Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God.



That is the answer. He must show you and He will if you are willing to lay aside all preconceived ideas before Him and tell Him you only want HIS truth.
blessings
C

But C....He gave me the Scripture this morning showing the first of the firstfruits is the sacrifice. I will also say that it is the Spirit that has been teaching me. I have no preconceived ideas about the man child for I have never heard of it before last year. What I have learned is from you, other posters and His Word. I have read NO material on this subject. I see type after type of the man child when I study and....it appears that it is they that will lose their physical lives.

So, certainly I want only His truth and always ask for that when I open His Word. The reason I am being so dogmatic on this particular aspect is that I only want the truth. I need to understand why you see it as you do but you are not giving me any Scripture or types that document your belief.

You have stated that God counts dying to self as the only time one must die....where is it written or given in types? You have stated that dying to self is following Jesus yet....Jesus gave His flesh life for others. So, I don't understand. It is not that I am trying to be contrary but because the exact opposite is being shown me as I study....I must wonder....why is there this discrepency in what to me should be an understandable point?

 

[Ret]

OK, now here is one of the main scriptures. Please see what happens to those who have lost their lives: as we know the man child has done:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. The man child has lost their lives, so they will preserve it. The next scripture I think you know well. The man child has manifested Christ, so they have found the secret place of Psalm 91. This is the perfect place to reach in our walk with God.

The above verse tells me....if we try to save our life (which is speaking of happening during the tribulation) then...we lose our spiritual life. Those that fall for the deception, take the mark, will be spiritually dead. But, the firstfruits...who die to self and die a physical death (not trying to preserve their life when delivered up) ...they will preserve it SPIRITUALLY. Their flesh will die but they will live...eternally.

Dividing between what is symbolic and what is literal is a major perplexity and people divide ways in this area of understanding. Jesus talked to the 5000 saying 'eat my flesh' and 'drink my blood' and many walked no more with Him because they did not understand the symbolic meaning.

The following verses have LITERAL significance to me...

• 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh,
  arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered
  in the flesh hath ceased from sin; KJV
  
  1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,
  leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: KJV
  

Christ is literally my example, as far as suffering is concerned. Other examples are the stoning of Stephen, the imprisonment/s of the disciples, James the brother of John was (literally) killed by Herod, all the many afflictions Paul endured, are examples of endurance and perseverance in the time of trial and persecution - and most particularly for the END TIMES.

This does not deny occasions given scripture that are both Symbolic and literal, especially within the events of history given in the Old Testament. Though any specific event is literal to the one actually going through the ordeal but has symbolic significance to those who follow later.

 

[Cornelius]

To WW:

Jesus giving His flesh life was in type. You are making it literal (letter) and you know what that means.

Never does the Word tell us to get killed physically.It is always speaking about spiritual death. But there is one case where physical death comes into play and that is when the witnesses loose their heads during the tribulation. A price they pay, for not dying to self fully, now, when they had the chance . Look around you and will see them everywhere. At this moment they are only religious and even playful regarding the Word. But when the tribulation starts, God will call forth those who have already died to self spiritually to send the two witnesses to witnesses until the time comes when they have done . Then they get killed. The man child are those who stay until the coming of the Lord.

We are one BODY, but different parts. In this crowd we call Christians, you will find the Bride, the Man-child, the Witnesses , the Sons of perdition, the false prophets and even the Harlot. I know its difficult to SEE them clearly, because its hidden in a group. Some live and some will die. Some will even die the second death.

I have given you scripture in my previous post which includes Psalm 91.

I normally stop, because I do not want to talk somebody into my understanding. If you cannot see it, then you cannot. Remember some time ago, you did not even understand the man child teaching and God used the "rod of iron" to completely open something to you , which you have never see? Well, that is how it works. God does it and not man.

 

[Cornelius]

The above verse tells me....if we try to save our life (which is speaking of happening during the tribulation) then...we lose our spiritual life. Those that fall for the deception, take the mark, will be spiritually dead. But, the firstfruits...who die to self and die a physical death (not trying to preserve their life when delivered up) ...they will preserve it SPIRITUALLY. Their flesh will die but they will live...eternally.

Can you show me why you link this verse with the tribulation and with real life?

 

[Cornelius]

I am going to say something in love to you and just think about it. You have been spending a LOT of time , researching the man child and who lives and who dies and when and where. But something is lacking. The understanding of how the Word puts us to death and what the consequences are spiritually. I cannot show you this , because its something that needs a lot of time in the Word, but with another focus (not just the end time focus)

You are not correctly understanding what it really means to manifest Christ . I know its not easy, because most people are already shouting blasphemy when they read this. The human mind somehow has difficulty in grasping the total "Good News" and how absolutely perfect our redemption is in Christ. People have no idea, what it means to be a real son of God. They think, its a title, but its not. Its BEING something. Manifest sons are going to be walking this earth and there will be no difference between them and Jesus. Why? Because GOD did something. Not man. We can do nothing, but most Christians have no idea about what is coming our way VERY soon.You will not be able to kill them, because they will be walking in glory. If I tell you what I know, you might also shout blasphemy although its all in the Word.

 

[whirlwind]

To WW:

Jesus giving His flesh life was in type. You are making it literal (letter) and you know what that means.

I see it both spiritually and literally. Both are written so both are true. You yourself said that the death is literal it is just that we are not agreeing on those on the receiving end of being killed. You believe it is all of the witnesses while I believe it is the man child. The reason you give for it not being the man child is that they have died to self already. I believe that the witnesses have also died to self and yet....someone shall be killed.

• Revelation 11:7-8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Never does the Word tell us to get killed physically.It is always speaking about spiritual death. But there is one case where physical death comes into play and that is when the witnesses loose their heads during the tribulation. A price they pay, for not dying to self fully, now, when they had the chance . Look around you and will see them everywhere. At this moment they are only religious and even playful regarding the Word. But when the tribulation starts, God will call forth those who have already died to self spiritually to send the two witnesses to witnesses until the time comes when they have done . Then they get killed. The man child are those who stay until the coming of the Lord.

As far as I have seen....That isn't written. That isn't given in types. Neither is it written that the witnesses have not fully died to self or that it is the man child that stays. The statements you have just made are those I question.

We are one BODY, but different parts. In this crowd we call Christians, you will find the Bride, the Man-child, the Witnesses , the Sons of perdition, the false prophets and even the Harlot. I know its difficult to SEE them clearly, because its hidden in a group. Some live and some will die. Some will even die the second death.

I have given you scripture in my previous post which includes Psalm 91.

I normally stop, because I do not want to talk somebody into my understanding. If you cannot see it, then you cannot. Remember some time ago, you did not even understand the man child teaching and God used the "rod of iron" to completely open something to you , which you have never see? Well, that is how it works. God does it and not man.

God shows me through His Word and what He has shown me thus far is the opposite of what you are saying. I know that you have studied this for some time so, for that reason I have asked you to quote verses or show types where the man child are not those that follow the example of Christ, The Man Child. Or, that it is the man child that stays until the coming of the Lord. Psalms 91 and Mordecai didn't give those examples. Perhaps I'm not seeing it or....perhaps it isn't there.

 

[whirlwind]

The above verse tells me....if we try to save our life (which is speaking of happening during the tribulation) then...we lose our spiritual life. Those that fall for the deception, take the mark, will be spiritually dead. But, the firstfruits...who die to self and die a physical death (not trying to preserve their life when delivered up) ...they will preserve it SPIRITUALLY. Their flesh will die but they will live...eternally.

Can you show me why you link this verse with the tribulation and with real life?

Cornelius wrote:
OK, now here is one of the main scriptures. Please see what happens to those who have lost their lives: as we know the man child has done:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

The time the above verse pertains to is the end of days.....

• Luke 17:23-25 And they shall say to you, 'See here;' or, 'see there:' go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day. But first must He suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

As Jesus was rejected of His generation so shall the man child be rejected of his. Where it is written, "the Son of man be in His day," I believe is...the man child. It is Jesus in His man children. For that reason He/they are termed "son of man" and not Son of God which is Jesus Christ alone. As He suffered so will the man child.

• Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. (30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

As it was in the days of Noah, and in the days of Lot [17:29], and the references to "two women" and "two men" grinding and in the field [17:34-36] are about....the tribulation. As far as why I see that as "real life," we know we will go through a literal tribulation and as it is written that the witnesses will be killed we know there will be literal death. As [17:33] in smack-dab in the midst of the teaching about that time.....I see that where He said that those seeking to save their life will lose it being a literal event. And, as those that lose their lives are the witnesses, as written, then we know that their lives, their spiritual lives, are preserved eternally. So, [Luke 17:33] speaks of the literal and spiritual.

 

[whirlwind]

I am going to say something in love to you and just think about it. You have been spending a LOT of time , researching the man child and who lives and who dies and when and where. But something is lacking. The understanding of how the Word puts us to death and what the consequences are spiritually. I cannot show you this , because its something that needs a lot of time in the Word, but with another focus (not just the end time focus)

I accept what you said in the way it was offered and I will think about it. Yes, I have spent a lot of time on this but that is where God has led me.

You are not correctly understanding what it really means to manifest Christ . I know its not easy, because most people are already shouting blasphemy when they read this. The human mind somehow has difficulty in grasping the total "Good News" and how absolutely perfect our redemption is in Christ. People have no idea, what it means to be a real son of God. They think, its a title, but its not. Its BEING something. Manifest sons are going to be walking this earth and there will be no difference between them and Jesus. Why? Because GOD did something. Not man. We can do nothing, but most Christians have no idea about what is coming our way VERY soon.You will not be able to kill them, because they will be walking in glory. If I tell you what I know, you might also shout blasphemy although its all in the Word.

I am learning what it means. If it is in the Word...please show me how their "walking in glory," which I certainly believe will be, will happen before they are physically killed or where it is written that they will not, or cannot, be killed.

 

[Cornelius]

Here is one scripture , that I already gave, that tells that they will be protected from death.

Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee.
Actually the whole of Psalm 91 is talking about the protection that is "in Christ", the "secret place" of the Most High.

Here is the Scripture that tells that they will be walking in glory.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
In type you have to look at Moses and his face, and Jesus on the mountain.

and

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Its talking about the day that Paul describes here. He is revering to 2 Cor 3:18 (the mirror) and telling us that at this moment we only see with difficulty Christ in the mirror, but the day is coming that we will see Him clearly ....face to face. When does this happen? When you are fully transformed ! From glory to glory.

Jesus is coming back IN His people, not to die again, but to bring judgment on this world and to lead His people. The man child is useless dead, He is the leadership . God will not raise him up and then kill him. That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry

The "man-child ministry" is a concept invented by man, and is not Biblical. The sealing of the 144,000 (firstfruits) is what should be focused on; that is Biblical. You are advocating a presupposition; a private interpretation that is not supported (nor mentioned) in Scripture. Elegance and accuracy are two different things. Stick to what is written. This so-called "man-child" ministry is not.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.†(Revelation 12:5)

The Man Child is Jesus Christ. Why are people always trying to outdo Jesus :D? Been that way since the very beginning:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4,5)

Be careful .

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry, I know nothing about this man-child ministry.

 

[Cornelius]

The man child is of course Jesus. The problem is that He told us (not the invention of man) that He is first coming IN us , before He come for us.

Have you read John 16? Why is it so difficult for Christians to see Christ in them. What is the reason He is there? Why did God make this to be so ? Why did He not just have Jesus die, then we believe in that and then we go to heaven. No, He then added : Christ is now in you. You are HIS body. But Christians deny that. No so much by their words as by their actions. They refuse to see that they are no more (Gal2 :20) and refuse to acknowledge Christ in them . They cannot see, that Christ is coming forth in them as the Fruit of Matthew and they cannot see that its the Fruit that goes to heaven and not them. They cannot see that God is coming to pick the Fruit that is ready and leave the rest. To them Matthew's thirty , sixty and a hundred fold is just something that is mentioned as an interesting thing, something of no importance.

The man child is NOT about man, because the flesh has died in these. They are NOT taking any glory, because God will not share His glory. All that is left in them, (By God's grace , not by their own works or ability or cleverness,) is Christ Surely you can read this reality in the Bible? Its so plain and in your face.


May I please show you something. Look at this verse with new eyes:

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Look up the word "cometh". You will see that it is present continues tense. Its talking about something that is happening NOW and is still in progress. "They that confess" are doing so by and through their knowledge of this. They confess through the way they ARE, that Jesus is indeed IN them That He is indeed "coming in the flesh" (Their flesh, not His flesh, He already cam in His flesh through Mary )
They that confess not......is denying Christ in their body. They live like He is not there and their spirit confess that He is not there and not coming in them. They are antichrist.

Let me show you, why I say its their spirit that confesses this and not their mouths:1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

You and I are seen and known by our spirit. If your spirit denies Christ in you, you are antichrist, if your spirit confess Christ, you are of God. See, the church has twisted this to mean you must run around saying : Jesus is Lord and He came in the flesh. Sorry, the Word is clear that we (our spirit) must SHOW that Christ is indeed in us, or we are antichrist.


The man child of which Jesus was a sign, will be spoken against. That we are told in Luke. Jesus was the man child in His time, but Luke tells us that He is also a sign. A sign points to something. Jesus is pointing to the end time Man-child when He shall manifest in His first fruits and later in the rest.

Luk 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is ............. for a sign which is spoken against; Speaking against the man child is what must be.

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry, I know nothing about this man-child ministry.

Would you say that is good or bad , seeing that it is mentioned in the Bible ?

 

[whirlwind]

Here is one scripture , that I already gave, that tells that they will be protected from death.

Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee.

Actually the whole of Psalm 91 is talking about the protection that is "in Christ", the "secret place" of the Most High.

It is about protection in Christ but It doesn't say they are protected from death or even which death they are protected from (spirit or body). A wise man told me, not long ago.....

"Jesus giving His flesh life was in type. You are making it literal (letter) and you know what that means. Never does the Word tell us to get killed physically.It is always speaking about spiritual death. But there is one case where physical death comes into play and that is when the witnesses loose their heads during the tribulation."

You are reading Psalms 91 and seeing the letter (and you know what that means. ) It is spiritual in nature and as such is about our souls being protected...not our flesh bodies. Your previous statement agrees with that as you wrote, "it is always speaking about spiritual death." That holds true for Psalms 91 and it should be read seeing the spiritual lesson.

One other clue to this being a spiritual message is found in the very next verse to the one about "a thousand shall fall at thy side." By the way, that is so interesting in itself...those at the side of the man child are fellow believers and they "shall fall." :o

• Psalms 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold And see the reward of the wicked.

Only the elect will see! That verse gives us a time frame to this event. When will "thine eyes behold the reward of the wicked?" It isn't in this present flesh age but is when they return with Christ.

• Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (49-50) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here is the Scripture that tells that they will be walking in glory.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
In type you have to look at Moses and his face, and Jesus on the mountain.

and

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Its talking about the day that Paul describes here. He is revering to 2 Cor 3:18 (the mirror) and telling us that at this moment we only see with difficulty Christ in the mirror, but the day is coming that we will see Him clearly ....face to face. When does this happen? When you are fully transformed ! From glory to glory.

When is that day? When do we see Him face to face and become "fully transformed?" While we are in flesh He is in us but when our flesh is gone then....we are fully transformed. Our clue is found in "from glory to glory."

• 1 Peter 4:12-14 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part He is evil spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.
  
  1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. That, according as it is written, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
  
  1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
  
  Colossians 3:4 When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Jesus is coming back IN His people, not to die again, but to bring judgment on this world and to lead His people. The man child is useless dead, He is the leadership . God will not raise him up and then kill him. That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry.

C...it is their destiny to be raised and then slain. They will follow Jesus in every way.

• Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
  
  [list:15xqhqr1]Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
  
  Revelation 2:10-11 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.'

[/list:u:15xqhqr1]

 

[Cornelius]

It is about protection in Christ but It doesn't say they are protected from death or even which death they are protected from (spirit or body). A wise man told me, not long ago.....

Sorry, I am stopping here. If you cannot see the protection is real here and also from death, then I don't know what to say anymore

Blessings
C

 

[whirlwind]

It is about protection in Christ but It doesn't say they are protected from death or even which death they are protected from (spirit or body). A wise man told me, not long ago.....

Sorry, I am stopping here. If you cannot see the protection is real here and also from death, then I don't know what to say anymore

Blessings
C

I'm sorry you are stopping C. I do see that it is protection from death....but it is spiritual death. We know physical death is involved...it is written. Where the disagreement lies concerns who those are Satan will kill. I'm going to list the following Scriptures for I believe they are those that tell the story, give the types. Please consider them.....

• Exodus 15:27 And they came to Elim, (meaning, strong trees) where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

The seventy palm trees are, I believe, the man child. Those "palm trees" are the pillars of the temple of God mentioned in Ezekiel 40. Jesus tells us that those pillars are...the man child.

• Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.

• Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the People, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the People with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
  
  11:24 And Moses went out, and told the People the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the People, and set them round about the tabernacle.
  
  Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.
  
  [list:2li8cjrb]Two and seventy? The seventy are the man child, the "palm trees," while the two, the two sons of Joseph, the "two souls," represent the two witnesses...of which there are many. They are the candlesticks and olive trees of [Zechariah 4]. The "twelve wells" are the "officers," [Num. 11:16-17 above] over the palm trees (seventy men children) of end times.

Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

• The "fathers" are the officers, the twelve wells, that went to Egypt with the seventy palm trees. The twelve fathers may well be the spirits of the prophets or disciples and the seventy palms will draw "living water," truth, from them as they feed (teach) His children (Israel, the woman) in the wilderness.

[/list:u:2li8cjrb]

Our Father always shows us the future by the events of the past. Therein...."Behold, I have foretold you all things," [Mark 13:23] can be found. And here...one of the examples is given of the future event of the seventy palm trees, man child, being slain and....who does it.

• Judges 8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.

Gideon, also called Jerubbaal, is a type of Christ. The seventy sons are of "his body" or...of the body of Christ. They are His firstfruits...as Christ is The Firstfruit the seventy are the first of the firstfruits, the man child of end times. Israel, all twelve tribes, are His "wives." From one of Gideon's "concubines" came another son....Abimelech, meaning "father of the king." That is thought to be a title for he is also called Achish, meaning "angry." As Gideon is a type for Christ....his son Abimelech is a type for the antichrist.

• Judges 9:1-3 And Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem unto his mother's brethren, and communed with them, and with all the family of the house of his mother's father, saying, Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh. And his mother's brethren spake of him in the ears of all the men of Shechem all these words: and their hearts inclined to follow Abimelech; for they said, "he is our brother."

Abimelech/anti christ asks if they really want to be ruled by the seventy. Well, we all know how that went....they made their decision and it remains so today.

• 9:4-5 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baal-berith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him. And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

Abimelech/anti christ went into the house of his father, Gideon/Christ. We believers are the house he will enter, he has entered already. He slays many today with deception and false doctrine and that spiritual slaying is far worse than what will physically happen to the seventy (palm trees/men children/very elect)....during his great tribulation. It is the seventy that are slain....not the 144,000.

• 9:24 That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren.

Is the number seven, or seventy, or seven hundred, or seven thousand a literal number of the man child? Or, as seven means "spiritual perfection," is it the perfect number of souls He chooses to fulfill the role of the man child?

• Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
  
  Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before His face into every city and place, whither He Himself would come. (17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name."

From the scriptures gathered on this subject I believe we are shown that the man child is represented by the threescore and ten or....seventy (palm trees, disciples, reserved men, etc. which are types for them.) and are of and yet separate from the other witnesses. From the types given I believe that the seventy are the man child and it is they that Satan shall kill after their testimony.

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry, I know nothing about this man-child ministry.

Would you say that is good or bad , seeing that it is mentioned in the Bible ?

Neither. I was being sincere, I don't know much about it.

You and I are seen and known by our spirit. If your spirit denies Christ in you, you are antichrist, if your spirit confess Christ, you are of God. See, the church has twisted this to mean you must run around saying : Jesus is Lord and He came in the flesh. Sorry, the Word is clear that we (our spirit) must SHOW that Christ is indeed in us, or we are antichrist.

That is your understanding of that verse??? Wow.. and to think John had the Gnostics in mind when he wrote it. :help

I can't say this better than Clarke, so I'll quote him instead:

Verse 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God
We know that the man who teaches that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, and that he is come in the flesh, is of God-is inspired by the Divine Spirit; for no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

Verse 3. Every spirit
Every teacher, that confesseth not Jesus, is not of God-has not been inspired by God. ...

Spirit of antichrist
All the opponents of Christ's incarnation, and consequently of his passion, death, and resurrection, and the benefits to be derived from them.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view. ... hapter=004

 

[Vic C.]

Originally posted by Cornelius
That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry

The "man-child ministry" is a concept invented by man, and is not Biblical. The sealing of the 144,000 (firstfruits) is what should be focused on; that is Biblical. You are advocating a presupposition; a private interpretation that is not supported (nor mentioned) in Scripture. Elegance and accuracy are two different things. Stick to what is written. This so-called "man-child" ministry is not....

... Be careful .

I agree! Os, this is also known as the Latter Rain Movement. Hiding behind a new name I see. :gah

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by Cornelius
That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry

The "man-child ministry" is a concept invented by man, and is not Biblical. The sealing of the 144,000 (firstfruits) is what should be focused on; that is Biblical. You are advocating a presupposition; a private interpretation that is not supported (nor mentioned) in Scripture. Elegance and accuracy are two different things. Stick to what is written. This so-called "man-child" ministry is not....

... Be careful .

I agree! Os, this is also known as the Latter Rain Movement. Hiding behind a new name I see. :gah

As I said, I don't want to argue, nor have any wish to convince anybody of any Biblical truth.

I do however know that we label things that disagrees with our views, to try and flavor them as bad or wrong. We call them "movements" or "cults" as to imply that we are the ones that are correct. We have such a person on another forum that even think out new names for people who disagrees with him. The people of the "such-and-such Movement" and "I see the "so-and-so Cult" is on the forum again. All because people do not want to agree with him, he breaks them down continuously by slander.

The Catholic Church still believe that the Protestants are not even part of the real church.You are the Protestant Movement in their eyes. Are they correct in this? Does them thinking of you in those terms change something about what you know the truth is ? Does it worry you that they think that of you?

How about the Charismatic Movement, or the Pentecostal Movement, or the Baptist Movement ? Do you agree with some or with all of them ?

By the way, I have never read anything on what you call "The Latter Day Movement" but I must go an Google them, because if they say, that Christ is indeed living in us, then they must have some truth that they can share.

C

 

[Cornelius]

OK I read a bit on Wiki

The Latter Rain broke with the dispensationalism which had become entrenched in the ranks of Pentecostalism. Dispensationalism tended to be pessimistic in its outlook whereas the Latter Rain emphasized a victorious eschatological outlook. Rather than attempting to simply save a few souls before rise of the anti-Christ, the Latter Rain emphasized the Church as overcoming and victorious in the fact that the church would come into "full stature" as taught by Apostle Paul.

They sound evil .LOL

The term "Latter Rain" stems from Bible passages as Jeremiah 3:3, 5:23-25, Joel 2:23, Hosea 6:3, Zechariah 10:1, and James 5:7. The idea of a "Latter Rain" was not new to the movement. In fact, it was present from the earliest days of Pentecostalism, which believed that the return of speaking in tongues and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit marked the "Latter Rain" of God's Spirit, and that these were signs of the coming end of history. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost had been the "former rain" that established the Church, but the current "move" of the Spirit was the "latter rain" that would bring the Church's work to completion, and culminate in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which was and is imminent.

I see their point, but they are mistaken in their assumption that God has already poured out the "latter rain" or Holy Spirit .The Bible points to our time for this, but not as they believe. We are still all operating in the "former rain"

I really like the following though :

A major theme of the Latter Rain was "unity" among the believers, in the church service, in the geographic region, and at large. They taught that God saw the church organized not into denominational camps, but along geographical lines as in the book of Acts. One church, but in different locations. They expected that in the coming last days, the various Christian denominations would dissolve, and the true church would coalesce into city wide churches under the leadership of the newly-restored apostles and prophets.

Interesting to see who condemned them:

. In 1949 the Assemblies of God condemned the doctrine of the 'Latter Rain Movement'. [15] The General Council of the Assemblies of God, following the leadership of its superintendent E. S. Williams, stated that Pre-Tribulation Rapture represented correct eschatology and they rejected the Latter Rain practice of personal prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands, as well as the Manifest Sons of God Doctrine.

Ah, so this IS about who is right and who is wrong. Those who did not agree with the Bible chuck the other ones out ! They preferred their religion to not be disturbed by all this Bible stuff. LOL

But I read, that as in many "movements" people eventually take over and then form a religion around the truth and then..............God moves out. I think the same thing happened to the Latterday Movement. People happened. Man happened.Self took over and tried to rule.

I recognize some names in that article. I did not think of those people as "Latter Day" as you call it. I do see a lot of "Movements" names in the article. I must correct myself, after reading this article, I realized that I have indeed read it before.Its just that I do not belong to anything or any movement myself , so I tend to put it out of my mind.


I wonder what we would have called Paul these days. In which "Movement" would we have placed this tongue speaking, hands laying, prophesying, teacher and apostle ?