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Bible Study The Significance of Job

sunflower said:
What is your general take on this book?
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First; keep in mind that the point of reference for behavior in the book of Job is the Law of Moses.

I see the book of Job as a balance for the book of Proverbs.

In Proverbs, the general theme is; if you keep the Law, shun evil, and pursue good then God will bless you and you will live a safe, healthy, prosperous, peaceful life.

Proverbs tends to present a view that if you do God's will then He HAS to bless you because He promised He would in His law. That's "putting God in a box." If God "has" to bless me than I am greater than God. I can control God by my actions. That's witchcraft.

Job's experience seems to warn against trying to be perfect in keeping the Law with the objective of living a safe, healthy, prosperous, peaceful life. All those things are promised for keeping the Law but they are not the reason for keeping the Law. The reason for keeping the Law is to glorify God by doing His will. The blessings are secondary.

Job's comment; "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." (Job 13:15) confirms the idea that serving God because He is God is the proper attitude for a believer.

And when we do our utmost to please God but still suffer the curses of a fallen world, don't think that you deserve an explanation from God as to why He allowed evil to happen to you.

God's response to Job's complaints is: (Job 38:1-2) Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: “Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?"

Or, in modern English, "Who do you think you are to even ask why I do what I do?"

We simply do not have the knowledge or intellectual capacity to understand why God does whatever He does. He sees the end from the beginning and knows the thoughts of every heart. We simply would not understand even if God were to explain it to us.

I remember the first time that my wife got cancer and I prayed to God and asked, "Why?".
God answered with, "It was her turn."

I got it.

It's the old bromide, "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer."

my 2 kopecks
 
StoveBolts said:
Yup, and that's certainly one of the lessons of Job :)

You'll notice that his friends sit respectfully with him in his silence for days and when Job speaks, he is so consumed in his grief that his first words are some of the most gut wrenching, raw, truthful words to come out a human soul.

Some might consider Job as unthankful to his friends because he does not embrace them and say, "Thank you for sitting with me". But this shows us how consumed in his anguish he was suffering. Its deep...

But Jobs friends dont understand and because of their beliefs on howthe world, and how God operates, they take offence. And because theyare offended, instead of shutting their mouths and consoling him, they end up lecturing him, which turns into a debate.... sound familiar?
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When I was a counselor in a Church we used to go to I would sit and listen first and then evaluate the problem as after they had it all talked out they would start making sense of their problem.
 
for_his_glory said:
When I was a counselor in a Church we used to go to I would sit and listen first and then evaluate the problem as after they had it all talked out they would start making sense of their problem.
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Roman's 15:14

English Standard Version
I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.

In the words of Jay E.Adam's, we are competent to counsel.
 
there's a ministry...psycho-heresy awareness ministry...

they say we are all equipped to minister, one to another. I think Verna was put in my life to minister to me. She'd probably be considered even more "antipsychiatry" than me...she worked administration in a psych ward, for extra $$$, until the screams from the shock patients got to her. but back to Job...

back in the day, I took a class in Jewish Philosophy. Funny, back then...I was 17, made an A...but it wasn't until years later that I moved beyond doing well on tests and essays to really -understanding-. anyway...

we did a section on Job, and it struck me--having been raised nominally Presbyterian, quite "liberal," etc.--how the devil was part of God's "squad," I guess. He was very much operating within parameters set by God and he could even go on up to God's throne. The evil one, of all people, had (has?) a definite role to play in God's work. -shudder- I thought it was cool back then...when I was a 17 year old stoner. LOL. now, as a believer...

its more than little frightening, especially since Christendom is now fractured and fragmented, so if one looks to the "experts" on Job (or anything), you'll get multiple "expert analyses," etc. To me, The Book of Job is, above and beyond anything else, a book about God and His power and might, which...because He is God and I am not..I find more than a bit nerve-wracking and awe-inspiring and...humbling...and...well, in an era in which a lot of the established church wants us to believe that God is sort of like a warm, kind, possibly a bit senile grandpa...

The Book of Job reminds me of the sheer power and might of God. (senile grandpa bit very much lifted and paraphrased from some CS Lewis...I forget what book or essay...). :)
 
StoveBolts said:
Roman's 15:14

English Standard Version
I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.

In the words of Jay E.Adam's, we are competent to counsel.
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Sometimes all one needs is for another to just listen. Many times when you pour your heart out you actually hear yourself speaking.
 
sunflower,

Stringfellow_Hawke has a post in the Bible study forum - Francis Chan devotional "Stop Praying" you need to read. There are four videos at crazybook.com called Crazy Love part 1, 2, 3, 4 that will help you and all of us for that matter. I know I was humbled watching them.
 
StoveBolts said:
So true. And sometimes the last thing we need to do is try and correct the one going through the suffering. Just be there for them, and work the rest out at a different time. I think we call this patience lol.
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Finally getting back to this and agreeing with the above. I am reading Job: A Man of Heroic Endurance. now by Charles Swindoll. One of his main points in the recounting of the response of Job's friends is that although it was not a rush to judgment on their part (since they remained silent for quite some time) once they got going their words were definitely judgmental whether subtle or cruel. Remaining silent would have been better than their monologues of judgement. Swindoll stresses the lesson in all this is that when people are suffering it is better to be empathetic than condescending especially in what we say to them. Too many well meaning people can slip into the Job's friends mode. Even pastors and other ministers of the Word.

When my husband was into the process of gradual cognitive and physical decline associated with Alzheimer's disease a pastor and wife from our church came to pray for him. They were very authoritative and, excuse me, very "loud" in these prayers. My husband was cordial yet there was no way he could see or understand beyond the noise. Just sitting with and loving him would have been so much more sincere and emphatic. Or a simple prayer and not so long and loud. (God can surely hear without all of that) Not so. They moved on quickly promising help if needed which I took seriously. A year later we did need help in transportation; but this same couple declined. I have and did forgive. Yet I learned better how to be with and pray for people myself. Yes, let us have compassion on the Jobs we encounter in our lives. (especially our friends.)
 
sunflower said:
Finally getting back to this and agreeing with the above. I am reading Job: A Man of Heroic Endurance. now by Charles Swindoll. One of his main points in the recounting of the response of Job's friends is that although it was not a rush to judgment on their part (since they remained silent for quite some time) once they got going their words were definitely judgmental whether subtle or cruel. Remaining silent would have been better than their monologues of judgement. Swindoll stresses the lesson in all this is that when people are suffering it is better to be empathetic than condescending especially in what we say to them. Too many well meaning people can slip into the Job's friends mode. Even pastors and other ministers of the Word.

When my husband was into the process of gradual cognitive and physical decline associated with Alzheimer's disease a pastor and wife from our church came to pray for him. They were very authoritative and, excuse me, very "loud" in these prayers. My husband was cordial yet there was no way he could see or understand beyond the noise. Just sitting with and loving him would have been so much more sincere and emphatic. Or a simple prayer and not so long and loud. (God can surely hear without all of that) Not so. They moved on quickly promising help if needed which I took seriously. A year later we did need help in transportation; but this same couple declined. I have and did forgive. Yet I learned better how to be with and pray for people myself. Yes, let us have compassion on the Jobs we encounter in our lives. (especially our friends.)
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I'm sorry you experienced both the decline of your husband and a Pastor who seemingly didnt put his faith into practice.

Most people who have experienced trauma, or are experiencing trauma will claw at the things around them looking for something solid to sink into just to stop their world from spinning which goes with the saying, "hurting people hurt those around them".

I get the idea tha Job was a threat to his friends and as his world was spinning out of control, his friends were not strong enough to endure the pain of their friend Job's claws being sunk deeply into how they understood the world around them and what Gods role was in the world. I think like most, they were afraid Job would shake their faith by sucking them onto the merry go round causing their world to spin because we like to make since of things so we feel more in control. Nobody likes to spin...

It is this understanding that helps me extend grace to those who I feel abandoned me in my greatest times of loss, or those who cast judgment upon me without understanding.
 
StoveBolts said:
I get the idea tha Job was a threat to his friends and as his world was spinning out of control, his friends were not strong enough to endure the pain of their friend Job's claws being sunk deeply into how they understood the world around them and what Gods role was in the world.
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Alzheimer's disease is definitely threatening especially to older people. It is also not very well understood by most. (and it is becoming more and more prevalent) And some people, ministers included, have a set pattern or agenda for their visits. Most, thank God, have more sensitivity than the couple I mentioned who are no longer on staff there now and recently retired. I think what I meant in what I shared was the way they came on to him and prayed seemed like they were indirectly blaming him for his condition. So I used this to make the comparison to Job's friends. This incident and the failure to help later did not end the relationship with them, in fact, I became involved in prayer ministry with her for some time and attended his adult bible study classes for some months. Like I said, I forgave them. Like Job's friends they meant well.
 
sunflower said:
Alzheimer's disease is definitely threatening especially to older people. It is also not very well understood by most. (and it is becoming more and more prevalent) And some people, ministers included, have a set pattern or agenda for their visits. Most, thank God, have more sensitivity than the couple I mentioned who are no longer on staff there now and recently retired. I think what I meant in what I shared was the way they came on to him and prayed seemed like they were indirectly blaming him for his condition. So I used this to make the comparison to Job's friends. This incident and the failure to help later did not end the relationship with them, in fact, I became involved in prayer ministry with her for some time and attended his adult bible study classes for some months. Like I said, I forgave them. Like Job's friends they meant well.
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Thanks for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it. Your a good woman, your husband is a lucky man.
 
StoveBolts said:
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it. Your a good woman, your husband is a lucky man.
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Thanks, Steve. He died a year or so after their visit. I was the blessed one having been married to him over 50 years. He was my hero, (including 82 Airborne, firefighting, and much more) so when he declined and it was time for me to step to the plate to be his caregiver it was hard for four years. Alzheimer patients are much harder to take care of because there is so much change in their behavior (which they can't really help). It goes way beyond a memory loss...it is simply brain cells dying so all functions eventually go. I am assured he is with the Lord now and do look forward to someday seeing him again. However, going through grief share program has helped me a lot last year. God gives strength and grace as the business of living for the widow or widower goes on.
 
sunflower said:
Thanks, Steve. He died a year or so after their visit. I was the blessed one having been married to him over 50 years. He was my hero, (including 82 Airborne, firefighting, and much more) so when he declined and it was time for me to step to the plate to be his caregiver it was hard for four years. Alzheimer patients are much harder to take care of because there is so much change in their behavior (which they can't really help). It goes way beyond a memory loss...it is simply brain cells dying so all functions eventually go. I am assured he is with the Lord now and do look forward to someday seeing him again. However, going through grief share program has helped me a lot last year. God gives strength and grace as the business of living for the widow or widower goes on.
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Hi sunflower,
I'm really sorry to hear about your hubby. I'm not looking forward to that day and I tell my wife I dont want her to go through that.

My wife is in Texas for a week and I dont like being in the house alone, let alone having to cook, eat and clean on my own. It's not so much the work, but rather, it's the silence I dont care for. She comes back next Tuesday and it cant come quick enough.

At least I have next Tuesday to look forward to. But like yourself, I have lost loved ones, including two of my children. I wont be seeing them anytime soon, God willing, but I will see them again and although I miss them, I look forward to the time when I will feel their warm embrace once again.

My Dad and your late Hubby have much in common. My Dad is suffering with the same disease and he was also 82nd Airborne. He was LLRP and served in (I can't spell it) chekoslovakia. I would have to get his coin to list all the companies he belonged to including the Rangers which originated from LLRP.

They were, are a tight bit group and for those still alive, they maintain communication with each other online. I know years ago my Dad went to a big reunion in Georgia. Some of them even jumped! I heard one man in his 90's jumped random! Crazy! But cool!

Wouldnt it be odd if they knew each other...

Jeff
 
StoveBolts said:
Hi sunflower,
I'm really sorry to hear about your hubby. I'm not looking forward to that day and I tell my wife I dont want her to go through that.

My wife is in Texas for a week and I dont like being in the house alone, let alone having to cook, eat and clean on my own. It's not so much the work, but rather, it's the silence I dont care for. She comes back next Tuesday and it cant come quick enough.

At least I have next Tuesday to look forward to. But like yourself, I have lost loved ones, including two of my children. I wont be seeing them anytime soon, God willing, but I will see them again and although I miss them, I look forward to the time when I will feel their warm embrace once again.

My Dad and your late Hubby have much in common. My Dad is suffering with the same disease and he was also 82nd Airborne. He was LLRP and served in (I can't spell it) chekoslovakia. I would have to get his coin to list all the companies he belonged to including the Rangers which originated from LLRP.

They were, are a tight bit group and for those still alive, they maintain communication with each other online. I know years ago my Dad went to a big reunion in Georgia. Some of them even jumped! I heard one man in his 90's jumped random! Crazy! But cool!

Wouldnt it be odd if they knew each other...

Jeff
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. Jeff..
His time of jumping..Korean Era. Fort Bragg..1953-56..
 
Hmm,.. very interesting conversation. I've got a lot to do today so I only skimmed it but I remember reading about Job (back when I thought he was named after a career :lol) and all I have to say that what I got from that chapter is that being a Christian and having faith isn't always easy. It's easier when things are going right rather than when they are going wrong. The truth is that we don't always know why bad things happen.



Whether it be public shootings, the loss of a child, or having somebody you know and love who has been sent to prison for a crime he did not commit. (I know about that one first hand unfortunately :sad) It is extremely horrible when something like that happens and like it has been mentioned before on here, unless you walk a mile in a person's shoes who had something like that happen to them, then you couldn't possibly know how that person is feeling.




However God always knows. He knows your every pain and every worry and although He will always be there to comfort you, sometimes He sets up these obstacles in your life to test you and your faith and make you become stronger people because of it. Since Thanksgiving is right around the corner now, I think now is the time that we should remember that we should be thankful for those times as well as the happy times and know in our hearts that the Lord is always watching out for us. :cross
 
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HeIsRisen2018 said:
Hmm,.. very interesting conversation. I've got a lot to do today so I only skimmed it but I remember reading about Job (back when I thought he was named after a career :lol) and all I have to say that what I got from that chapter is that being a Christian and having faith isn't always easy. It's easier when things are going right rather than when they are going wrong. The truth is that we don't always know why bad things happen.



Whether it be public shootings, the loss of a child, or having somebody you know and love who has been sent to prison for a crime he did not commit. (I know about that one first hand unfortunately :sad) It is extremely horrible when something like that happens and like it has been mentioned before on here, unless you walk a mile in a person's shoes who had something like that happen to them, then you couldn't possibly know how that person is feeling.




However God always knows. He knows your every pain and every worry and although He will always be there to comfort you, sometimes He sets up these obstacles in your life to test you and your faith and make you become stronger people because of it. Since Thanksgiving is right around the corner now, I think now is the time that we should remember that we should be thankful for those times as well as the happy times and know in our hearts that the Lord is always watching out for us. :cross
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Very well said. :)
 
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