The Sin Nature!

[Malachi]

But sometimes we're in the flesh mode. I guess not all of us are saved.

Saved sinners can (and do) operate in the flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saved sinners can (and do) operate in the flesh.

I agree Malachi.
I was being sarcastic.
Thanks for being considerate!

Of course saved sinners can operate in the flesh.
1 John 1:8

If little John can say we sin, then, yes, I believe we not only sin, but we sin every day and more than once.
You take your flesh with you wherever you go.

This might upset some who think they're perfect in some way, but the bible teaches me that I'm not perfect and that's why Jesus had to die on the cross for ME. So God, His Father, could love His Son MORE than He hates the sin I do.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Take what I posted and go scriptural point by point and show me I'm wrong.

And Jimmy Swaggart will never get another red cent of my money. He can pay for his own gas to go visit prostitutes.

We all visit prostitutes Jethro.
Just different types.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saved sinners can (and do) operate in the flesh.

Yes, believers do operate in the flesh, entertaining it's desires, from time to time. But that is not what Paul is referring to when he says 'in the flesh' in Romans 8:7-8 NASB. 'In the flesh' in context means 'the mind set on the flesh':

7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8 NASB italics in original, bold mine)


And then he says this:

"9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

See? By virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us, not by virtue of obeying the Spirit as you all are saying, we don't have the mind set on the flesh. That is what is gone in Christ for the believer, forever, as long as you have the Spirit. That is the old nature. It is gone and has been replaced by the new nature, the mind set on the things of the Spirit. But people here have been insisting we are still in the flesh (some even use it to rationalize ongoing, unrepentant sin). But, clearly, that is NOT what Paul says. You can see it with your own eyes. No privileged esoteric powers needed to see it for yourself.

So, shall we go with what we have been told by various leaders and teachers in the church what Paul is saying, or should we instead use and appreciate our God given ability to discern what is truth and what is not from our leaders (1 John 2:27 )? This is not the only example of where the church at large simply has it wrong. Christians are NOT in the flesh having the mind set on the flesh. They are in the Spirit having the mind set on the Spirit. Paul said so. I'm going with Paul on this one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We all visit prostitutes Jethro.
Just different types.

Please don't rationalize Jimmy Swaggart's abhorrent behavior. He is salt that has lost it's saltiness, and which can not be made salty again. It's sad, but true, because he really is/was a gifted preacher and teacher and musician. The rest of us, especially the leadership of the church, should take warning from his failure.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please don't rationalize Jimmy Swaggart's abhorrent behavior. He is salt that has lost it's saltiness, and which can not be made salty again. It's sad, but true, because he really is/was a gifted preacher and teacher and musician. The rest of us, especially the leadership of the church, should take warning from his failure.

What do you mean by that?
Are you saying he lost his salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you mean by that?
Are you saying he lost his salvation?

Absolutely not!
He lost his influence and value as a teacher and preacher of the gospel in the eyes of the world. That's what I mean.

If there was any issue of whether or not he lost his salvation, his grievous sin would have been the sign that he'd already lost it, not the thing that lost his salvation for him. Only unbelief can forfeit the salvation a person has. The sin that results from that unbelief is not what would actually lose it for them. The contempt and unbelief that caused the sin is what does that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Worth repeating:

"9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

See, fellow sinning saints, we are no longer 'in the flesh' having the mind set on the things of the flesh. We have by the Spirit the mind set on the things of the Spirit! All by virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us, not by virtue of us obeying and walking in the Spirit. Remember this next time your flesh comes a knockin'. Stop and listen to that part of your brain that is saying, 'I don't want to do this'. That's the new nature, the nature of Christ, that you have in you by the Holy Spirit. And it's because of that new nature you can say, "sin, talk to the hand, baby, talk to the hand!" Don't accept a false teaching that says you are still 'in the flesh' and, therefore, doomed to obey the demands of the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Spirit in you is the glory of the New Covenant. It's the 'new' that has come displacing the old:

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:26-28 NASB)

The new nature is already a fact in us. The old is gone. What we are waiting for now is the redemption of our bodies. Then the tempter will no longer buffet and torment us with the desires of the flesh that chaff against the new nature set on the things of the Spirit.

"17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17-18 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you. 20Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. 21Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left. 22And you will defile your graven images overlaid with silver, and your molten images plated with gold. You will scatter them as an impure thing, and say to them, “Be gone! ('talk to the hand!')” (Isaiah 30:19-22 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

 

[Malachi]

See? By virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us, not by virtue of obeying the Spirit as you all are saying, we don't have the mind set on the flesh. That is what is gone in Christ for the believer, forever, as long as you have the Spirit.

This is true and correct according to Scripture, as well as the experience of those who have been saved by grace. The flesh cannot dictate to the believe because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. So if one is constantly walking "according to the flesh" that person is not genuinely saved. Believers can and do fall from time to time, but examine themselves daily. However their primary goal is to be holy, if they are indeed in Christ.

As to "as long as you have the Spirit" God says that the Holy Ghost is within you for eternity, since eternal life cannot be separated from God, and we receive THE GIFT of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). God IS eternal life, and the believer has eternal life the moment he is justified. God does not make constant revisions to the Lamb's Book of Life. However, He does chasten His errant children.

 

[iLOVE]

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:13-25 NKJV

Pastor Swaggart bible study notes,

Paul makes it crystal clear that no true Christian wants to sin. Despite the fact that some preachers claim the sin nature is gone from a Christian, Paul here plainly says that the sin nature is still in the Christian, if our Faith remains constant in the Cross, the sin nature will be dormant, causing us no problem; otherwise, it will cause great problems; while the sin nature "dwells" in us, it is not to "rule" in us.

Paul is speaking here also of his willpower; regrettably, most modern Christians are trying to live for God by means of willpower, thinking falsely that since they have come to Christ, they are now free to say "no" to sin; that is the wrong way to look at the situation; the Believer cannot live for God by the strength of willpower; while the will is definitely important, it alone is not enough; the Believer must exercise Faith in Christ, which automatically says, "no" to the things of the world. Outside of the Cross, it is impossible to find a way to do good. (Gal. 2:20-21 NKJV)

 

[iLOVE]

Pastor Swaggart Bible Study Notes,

The idea is not getting rid of the sin nature, which actually cannot be done, but rather controlling it, which the Apostle has told us how to do in Rom., Chpts. 6 and 8; when the Trump sounds, we shall be changed and there will be no more sin nature [Rm. 8:23].

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:13-25 NKJV

Pastor Swaggart bible study notes,

Paul makes it crystal clear that no true Christian wants to sin. Despite the fact that some preachers claim the sin nature is gone from a Christian, Paul here plainly says that the sin nature is still in the Christian, if our Faith remains constant in the Cross, the sin nature will be dormant, causing us no problem; otherwise, it will cause great problems; while the sin nature "dwells" in us, it is not to "rule" in us.

Paul is speaking here also of his willpower; regrettably, most modern Christians are trying to live for God by means of willpower, thinking falsely that since they have come to Christ, they are now free to say "no" to sin; that is the wrong way to look at the situation; the Believer cannot live for God by the strength of willpower; while the will is definitely important, it alone is not enough; the Believer must exercise Faith in Christ, which automatically says, "no" to the things of the world. Outside of the Cross, it is impossible to find a way to do good. (Gal. 2:20-21 NKJV)

The mistake J.S. is making is equating the sin nature with the flesh.
What the Christian has now that he didn't have before is the mind set on the things of the Spirit. What the Christian does not have anymore, by virtue of the indwelling Spirit, not by virtue of obeying the Spirit, is the mind set on the things of the flesh.

The old mindset is gone. But if you erroneously think the sin nature is the flesh then, yes, you most certainly are still an old creation and not a new creation in Christ. But as it is, Paul explains it is having a mind set on the Spirit that is new, and that the mind set on the flesh is old and we don't have that anymore as I have shown clearly from Romans 8. But if you don't want to see the plain words of scripture I posted....well, what can one say? Leader worship is not a good thing. We need to think for ourselves.

 

[iLOVE]

Pastor Swaggart Bible Notes,

24 O wretched man that I am! (Any Believer who attempts to live for God outside of God's Prescribed Order, which is "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified," will, in fact, live a wretched and miserable existence. This life can only be lived in one way, and that way is the Cross.) Who will deliver me from this body of death? (The minute he cries "Who," he finds the path to Victory, for he is now calling upon a Person for help, and that Person is Christ; actually, the Greek Text is masculine, indicating a Person).

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! (presents Paul revealing the answer to his own question; Deliverance comes through Jesus Christ Alone, and more particularly what Jesus did at Calvary and the Resurrection). So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God (the "will" is the trigger, but it within itself can do nothing unless the gun is loaded with explosive power; that Power is the Cross); but with the flesh the law of sin (if the Believer resorts to the "flesh," [i.e., "self-will, self-effort, religious effort"] which refers to his own ability outside of Christ and the Cross, he will not serve the Law of God, but rather the Law of sin). Romans 7:24-25

 

[iLOVE]

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

Jimmy Swaggart Bible Study Notes,

But you are not in the Flesh (in one sense of the word is asking the question, "Since you are now a Believer and no longer depending on the flesh, why are you resorting to the flesh?"), But in the Spirit (as a Believer, you now have the Privilege of being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit; however, He will do such for us only on the premise of our Faith in the Finished Work of Christ), if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you (if you are truly Saved). Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His ( Paul is saying that the work of the Spirit in our lives is made possible by what Christ did at Calvary, and the Resurrection).

 

[iLOVE]

We need to think for ourselves.

That is a worldliness statement. There are many traps and snares hidden by the enemy when we move our faith in us. Everything outside of the Bible is "a snare of death." Our faith must be exclusively and maintained in Jesus and the Cross,[ i.e., The Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus Christ]. The Holy Spirit only helps us and works in our lives in that parameter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is a worldliness statement.

No, this is:
"are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4For when one (you, iLOVE) says, “I am of (Mitspa--Lord help us, lol),” and another, “I am of (Jimmy Swaggart)” are you not mere men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3-4 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

I personally follow Christ. That way when a popular teacher, or a so-called teacher, says something wrong I catch it. It's worldly and unspiritual to elevate human teachers above the ministry of discernment God himself has placed in each one of us believers. So actually, like is so often true in these doctrinal discussions, you are actually the one who is guilty of being the worldly one by placing J.S. and whoever else above what the scriptures actually say, aligning yourself with his school of thought instead of that of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jimmy Swaggart Bible Study Notes,

But you are not in the Flesh (in one sense of the word is asking the question, "Since you are now a Believer and no longer depending on the flesh, why are you resorting to the flesh?")

How is it that J.S. doesn't even realize Paul himself tells us right there in the passage what 'in the flesh' means????? It means having a mind set on the things of the flesh:

"the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8 NASB)

It means having a mind set on living in the sins of the flesh. It has little to do with relying on the flesh to be do right. Jimmy is impressing his own thoughts into the passage. He's ignoring what Paul is actually talking about.

It is this mind set on fulfilling the desires of the flesh that is gone for the believer. Because of the Spirit we believers now have a mind set on the Spirit and what it desires to do. And it is because of that change of mind that we can not walk in the things of the flesh, if we so choose to do that by the power of the Holy Spirit. This new nature, the mind set on the Spirit is what we have now. The mind set on fulfilling the things of the flesh is gone by virtue of having the Holy Spirit inside of us--that is if you have the Holy Spirit.

"He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:16-17 NASB italics in original)

You are still regarding yourself according to the flesh. You are saying you are still an old creation. In complete contradiction to what Paul says. Complete contradiction.

 

[iLOVE]

But God kept them from recognizing him. Luke 24:16 NLT
Until a Believer faith is exclusively maintained in Christ and the Cross it is just speech (tingling cymbal and sounding brass).