The Sin Nature!

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree though that it was a terrible testimony.

And that's all I'm saying.

Well.......besides it really was a little more than just a mistake. He was a practicing fornicator.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, I don't know what church teaches that the sin nature is dead.

I don't give a crap what the church teaches. I just know what the Bible teaches. By nature we are new creations. That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we aren't sinners by nature anymore. This is what Paul said to the sinning saints at Corinth:

"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NASB)

When we sin, we are acting contrary to what we really are now, by nature, in Christ. I am very certain that few if any churches are teaching this foundational truth. I'm guessing it doesn't get taught because sin in the church has been rationalized, not properly understood as Paul teaches the truth about it. What I'm saying is the church is at least honest enough to recognize sin, but instead of reaching for the Biblical truths about sin in the saved person they have rationalized it to the point of acceptance with various unBiblical, foolish doctrines (i.e., it's the devil sinning, not me). False doctrines that leave the church dead in that sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means the blind follow the blind. It means horses follow the one with the bit in their mouth.

I don't listen to anyone who can't speak truthfully. Nearly everyone in the pulpit speaks with half a loaf. The side that their followers like to hear and will pay to hear. That just ain't my gig.

I don't belong to various "God bless me" clubs.

Don't get me wrong. Paul rejoiced however Jesus was preached. Even if done in pretence. That may even mean rejoicing if Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses proclaim their stuff. But I personally don't listen to the bulk of what is proclaimed because the bulk of it is in pretence, largely for CASH and institution building.

Find one that will say otherwise. They are slim pickins. Nobody would pay for preaching if it was TOO truthful. That much is certain.

Hey.
Maybe there are so few that say otherwise because it's WRONG.
Oh. And thanks for the compliments up there. Two actually.

But I forgive you. Jesus said to forgive and Jimmy says so too.

 

[GodsGrace]

And that's all I'm saying.

Well.......besides it really was a little more than just a mistake. He was a practicing fornicator.

I know what you're saying.
But we all sin. To God sin is sin.
This reminds me of Mathew 7:5
We all have sinned, we should not condemn the sinner, as Jesus did not condemn the adultress.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't give a crap what the church teaches. I just know what the Bible teaches. By nature we are new creations. That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we aren't sinners by nature anymore. This is what Paul said to the sinning saints at Corinth:

"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NASB)

When we sin, we are acting contrary to what we really are now, by nature, in Christ. I am very certain that few if any churches are teaching this foundational truth. I'm guessing it doesn't get taught because sin in the church has been rationalized, not properly understood as Paul teaches the truth about it. What I'm saying is the church is at least honest enough to recognize sin, but instead of reaching for the Biblical truths about sin in the saved person they have rationalized it to the point of acceptance with various unBiblical, foolish doctrines (i.e., it's the devil sinning, not me). False doctrines that leave the church dead in that sin.

I remember now about how you believe our nature will change.
We aren't sinners by nature. Is that different from the sin nature being dead? Maybe you're right. It's one of those small nuances. I guess you mean that we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Romans 12:2

The Nazarene church is nice. No weird stuff. Nice people. Good teaching. Fellowship.
Jesus did say the good news should be preached. That's all churches do, they teach.
You just have to find a good one.
And if you like a church that teaches sin, go to that big denomination one. They have them split into groups, each one in a long list.
OTOH, we have the super grace movement which says you don't even have to confess. Or the Word Movement that tells me I've ALREADY RECEIVED what I've asked for. I like that one. Heck, some churches believe everybody's going to heaven.

It is nice, though, to belong to a church. One that teaches what the bible teaches.

W

 

[Christ_empowered]

Isn't the idea that we are completely transformed by conversion+faith the reason some Protestant groups refer to believers as "saints" ? Saints commit sin when we/they act in the flesh, live out the old man who is being crucified daily. Happens, but we/they aren't controlled by a sin nature.

I learned that from Pentecostals, but I think its pretty much standard, traditional, old school Protestant doctrine. Sometimes I think more moderate Pentecostals may be one of the few denominations preserving traditional Christian teaching. I could be wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't the idea that we are completely transformed by conversion+faith the reason some Protestant groups refer to believers as "saints" ? Saints commit sin when we/they act in the flesh, live out the old man who is being crucified daily. Happens, but we/they aren't controlled by a sin nature.

I learned that from Pentecostals, but I think its pretty much standard, traditional, old school Protestant doctrine. Sometimes I think more moderate Pentecostals may be one of the few denominations preserving traditional Christian teaching. I could be wrong.

You're right CE
We are conformed to be like Jesus after salvation because the Holy Spirit transforms us as per Romans 12:2 and all that scripture that tells us we are a new creation in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17

And, yes, we are all called to be saints - to be set aside for service to God.
Romans 1:7

You phrased the change correctly: "We aren't controlled by a sin nature."
The sin nature is no longer our master.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I say there's a sin nature and it's put under dominion.
Romans 6:14
For SIN shall not be master over you. NASB
It's not saying the sin nature is dead, it's saying it's no longer the master.

And there is where you're making your mistake.
You're equating 'sin' with 'sin nature'.

 

[GodsGrace]

And there is where you're making your mistake.
You're equating 'sin' with 'sin nature'.

Jethro,
I quoted the NASB.

Here it is again:
Romans 6:14
"For SIN shall not be master over you..." NASB

I had even capitaized the word SIN. This is because you're right, there's a difference between sin, or sins, and SIN.

When the bible speaks of SIN in this manner, it's speaking to the Sin Nature, not to individual sins.

So really, Romans 6:14 is speaking to the sin nature.
Just above in Romans 6:12 we read that we should not let SIN reign in our body. This is used in the same way, meaning the Sin Nature. It's referring to the tendency to sin, the inclination to sin - which would be the sin nature.

This should be easy to confirm.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
I quoted the NASB.

Here it is again:
Romans 6:14
"For SIN shall not be master over you..." NASB

I had even capitaized the word SIN. This is because you're right, there's a difference between sin, or sins, and SIN.

When the bible speaks of SIN in this manner, it's speaking to the Sin Nature, not to individual sins.

So really, Romans 6:14 is speaking to the sin nature.
Just above in Romans 6:12 we read that we should not let SIN reign in our body. This is used in the same way, meaning the Sin Nature. It's referring to the tendency to sin, the inclination to sin - which would be the sin nature.

This should be easy to confirm.

Wondering

I guess you simply do not know what 'nature' means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's referring to the tendency to sin, the inclination to sin - which would be the sin nature.

No.
Paul explains what is 'new' about us in Romans 8. We have a different mind set. Not a body that doesn't sin anymore.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess you simply do not know what 'nature' means.

I know what it meas Jethro. I remember your dog nature example.
It's that I can't agree and no mainline church (sorry) would.
The sin nature doesn't die - it gets put under dominion.
The end result is the same!
You're saying it's the flesh that makes us sin. The flesh is that part of us that is not spirit.
That's all it means. If I'm eating it's a flesh thing - if I'm praying it's a spirit thing.
So just because we have a flesh, doesn't explain WHAT makes it sin - or tend toward sin, or be inclined toward sin.
The answer to what MAKES flesh sin, is the Sin Nature.

This doesn't mean we have the same nature as a "sinner." One who is not saved. They belong to Satan. Their sin nature is dominant. They either don't want to fight it, OR they can't because this world really does enslave us unless Jesus has freed us.

We have a new nature. We are regenerated. Our sin nature is under domination and we are no longer enslaved by it. We look more and more like Jesus as time goes by. It's not wrong to say we still have a sin nature. It's NOT THE BOSS anymore. The Holy Spirit is at work within us.

One last thing. Another bone of contention is the phrase "we are sinners."
We can say that we are "sinners" because we sin and will go to our death sinning. It's impossible not to sin.

However, we're not "sinners" in the same sense that the unsaved our sinners. In THIS case we can say that our "sinners nature" has died. We cannot be sinners in this sense because we do not wish to grieve the Holy Spirit and for all those reasons in Romans, which you know very well.

Please think about what is making the flesh sin if the sin nature is dead.
The flesh is not making you sin - the flesh is your BODY. The term for flesh in Greek is "sarx", it means the physical body. Romans 7:14 states that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh. The physical body, in and of itself, cannot make you sin. It's just a thing. Something must give it the directive to sin. And that something is the sin nature - which is under control in a Christian.

Wondering

 

[Malachi]

That's all it means. If I'm eating it's a flesh thing - if I'm praying it's a spirit thing.

Not exactly. Here's what the flesh does (Gal 5:19-21):
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

To clarify further, Christ equates "the heart" to "the flesh" (Mk 7:21-23):
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not exactly. Here's what the flesh does (Gal 5:19-21):
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

To clarify further, Christ equates "the heart" to "the flesh" (Mk 7:21-23):
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Malachi
WHAT is making the flesh up there DO all those horribly wicked things??

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jeremiah 17:9

 

[GodsGrace]

Jeremiah 17:9

WHAT makes the heart be so deceitful?

 

[Christ_empowered]

....the inborn sin nature of man.

 

[GodsGrace]

....the inborn sin nature of man.

RIGHT!
I love you Christ Empowered!

Good night.

 

[Malachi]

Malachi
WHAT is making the flesh up there DO all those horribly wicked things??

"The flesh" is a metaphor, in direct contrast to "the spirit" (which is not a metaphor). It is not muscles and sinews, but the heart and soul of the unregenerate sinner. So the flesh MAKES ITSELF do everything sinful.

 

[Malachi]

WHAT makes the heart be so deceitful?

What mankind inherited from Adam and Eve is the tendency to avoid holding oneself accountable for sins. Hence self-deception is what makes the heart deceitful. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Serpent, and the Serpent blamed God.