The soul of man

[chessman]

The teens language of 'whatever' should not be that of a teacher

I'm not a teacher and you're not my TEACHER either. So leave your 'instruction' on what I should and should not say to yourself. Plus, I didn't say; "I don't worry about teaching false information about hell, because I'm not going there" anyway. Those are your words, not mine.

Now you know why I think God can destroy both the body and souls of the lost in Hell and we know why you think he will not.
Whatever!

Are you familar with Peter's teaching in 1 Peter 3:16?

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not a teacher

You could have fooled me! If you are not a teacher, then quit teaching your anti-eternal punishment theology on this forum. It's as simple as that.

The fact is that you HAVE demonstrated that you are trying to be a teacher who teaches against eternal damnation/destruction for unbelievers.

The Scriptures warn:

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ (Eph 4:11-15 NIV, emphasis added).​

On CFnet, you and I are teaching, even though you want to deny it. That's why I have a responsibility before God to challenge you when I consider that you are engaged in eisegesis and not exegesis (see Acts 17 11 NIV). You have the same responsibility to me as do all people on this forum.

However, accountability to faithful biblical teaching is more difficult with the plethora of opinions/teaching on the Internet. That's why CFnet has a Statement of Faith to help to hold us accountable to accurate biblical teaching, as the owner and moderators understand the Scriptures.

You stated:

Are you familar with Peter's teaching in 1 Peter 3:16?

Of what are you accusing me and disguising it with this kind of question?

Oz

 

[chessman]

That's why CFnet has a Statement of Faith to help to hold us accountable to accurate biblical teaching, as the owner and moderators understand the Scriptures.

My beliefs align perfectly with the CFnet SoF on this and others subjects too. My understanding of Scripture might not align with yours or certain moderators understanding of Scripture. But my views align with this site's SoF perfectly.

The fact is that you HAVE demonstrated that you are trying to be a teacher who teaches against eternal damnation/destruction for unbelievers.

Now that's funny. Where have I said I do not believe in eternal damnation/destruction for unbelievers? Nowhere.
That's exactly what I believe; the eternal destruction of both the body and soul in Hell. Why would I be posting anything anti-eternal destruction or damnation???

quit teaching your anti-eternal punishment theology on this forum. It's as simple as that.

Quote something I posted that is against this cite's SoF!

My beliefs and posts thereof on this thread and others are in line with this forum's SoF on the subject and they are not anti-eternal punishment. I happen to believe that the punishment is eternal destruction in Hell. Maybe you have me confused with another member, given your persistent browser problems with viewing peoples back-quotes.

"We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished."​

You might think this SoF says Hell is a literal place of eternal torment for unbelievers. But it doesn't, nor do I.

It is my view, because the Text indicates it, that Rev 14:10-11 is not even about the unbelievers final post judgment punishment in Hell. John specifically says the torture visioned in Rev 14 (which he doesn't even say is eternal) is for those residing on the earth, woshiping the Beast and still taking his mark. And where believers are still dying. It's not even about Hell or about being cast in the Lake of Fire which is their second death. And the Rev 14 torture is received in the presence of the Lamb, not in Hell. And it occurs prior to the final judgment, not after when All unbelievers are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire (their second death/destruction).

But that doesn't mean my beliefs or my posts have been against this forums SoF. Because they're not.

Revelation 14:6, 10 (LEB) And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, ...
he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

 

[WIP]

Why is this a problem? If you believe what is written, devils cannot die (here, there, or anywhere). Yet man can be destroyed (both body and soul) in Hell, Matt 10:28. We are not like demons now, why not a 'double standard then'???

But whatever, I don't really even think to much about what happens to the lost in Hell. Not my future home nor any of my brothers/sisters in Christ anyway. If it were "written" that the lost live forever in eternal conscious torment in Hell, I wouldn't have even a speck of doubt. But it's not written that way. Lots of people think so, though.

Frankly, I'll borrow my teens' saying; "whatever".

Do you think Jesus wept for Jerusalem because of their sinfulness? Would it not be appropriate then for us to weep for the lost?
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” Luke 19:41-44 NKJV

edit:
Actually, this discussion is getting off topic. We should bring it back.

 

[chessman]

Do you think Jesus wept for Jerusalem because of their sinfulness?

Yes.

Would it not be appropriate then for us to weep for the lost?

Yes.

The discussion was about the difference or lack thereof ('double standard' as smaller put it) in what the devil and his angels suffer versus what the lost souls of man (the OP topic) suffer. I stated my belief (and provided Textual support for it) that Rev 20:10 is precisely about the Devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 (LEB) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 16:13-14 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
​

Which corresponds to this sites' SoF concerning the devil and his angels final fate in Hell:

"We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord."
​

Do you think it is appropriate for us to weep for the Devil and his angels' destiny?

Do you think that I have posted beliefs supporting views contrary to this site's SoF concerning the final punishment of the unbelievers lost souls (the OP tooic) and if so where?

"We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished."​

Do you think it is appropriate for any member to be allowed to accuse another member of postings contrary to this site's SoF without any proof of such contrary postings?

The fact is that you HAVE demonstrated that you are trying to be a teacher who teaches against eternal damnation/destruction for unbelievers.

On CFnet, you and I are teaching, even though you want to deny it. That's why I have a responsibility before God to challenge you ...

That's why CFnet has a Statement of Faith to help to hold us accountable to accurate biblical teaching, as the owner and moderators understand the Scriptures.

Oz

 

[jaybird]

Hello everyone,

If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/

the bible says the soul comes from the Most High and returns to the Most High, that would be enough for me to believe the soul never dies.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

the bible says the soul comes from the Most High and returns to the Most High, that would be enough for me to believe the soul never dies.

I don't believe the Bible says that.
Show me please.

 

[jaybird]

I don't believe the Bible says that.
Show me please.

Genesis 2:7
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Genesis 2:7
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

So you say the breath of life and the spirit returning to God in an accurate interpretation of "soul"?

 

[jaybird]

So you say the breath of life and the spirit returning to God in an accurate interpretation of "soul"?

the word in question is breath being used in both passages. now what breath means . .not sure. i think it is talking about that part of us that is the spiritual part.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

the word in question is breath being used in both passages. now what breath means . .not sure. i think it is talking about that part of us that is the spiritual part.

We are told we are body soul and spirit.
If God takes back his spirit, then what about the soul?

 

[Randy]

Jesus=>"Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
Steven=>"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59 NIV

I
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. ;The gift of God with our spirit.
For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.


Annihilationism is a different argument than if our spirit survives the death of the body. That is are the souls thrown into the lake of fire destroyed or unmade or continue to exist in torment. Does the lake of fire in itself unmake /destroy spirit?
The faithful need not worry as Jesus stated in regard to those the believe and remain in Him though they would die yet shall they live and never die and "today you shall be with me in paradise"

 

[jaybird]

We are told we are body soul and spirit.
If God takes back his spirit, then what about the soul?

where is our soul? are we sure it is contained within our physical body?
the breath goes back to the Most High. that could mean a lot of things. IMO it means we go back to where we were before we were born.
spirit and soul are two different things. i still dont fully get what they are. spirit may be everything, in all things, spirit is used many different ways in scripture, but our soul IMO is unique to each individual.

 

[OzSpen]

where is our soul? are we sure it is contained within our physical body?
the breath goes back to the Most High. that could mean a lot of things. IMO it means we go back to where we were before we were born.
spirit and soul are two different things. i still dont fully get what they are. spirit may be everything, in all things, spirit is used many different ways in scripture, but our soul IMO is unique to each individual.

jaybird,

Do you believe in the pre-existence of the human soul? If so, would you please provide biblical support for such a view?

As for the soul and the spirit being 2 different things (your view), I don't find that emphasis in Scripture. I do find this in 2 Cor 4:16 (NET), 'Therefore we do not despair, but even if our physical body is wearing away, our inner person is being renewed day by day'. So the human being is a 2-dimension person - an outer physical body that also has an inner person.

Then I find this emphasis in Scripture: We see soul and spirit used interchangeably. Matt 10:28 (NET) states, 'Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [psuche]. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell'. Psuche is contrasted with body. But James 2:26 teaches, 'For just as the body without the spirit [pneuma] is dead, so also faith without works is dead'.

Here we see that soul/spirit represents the inner human being and the words are used in an interchangeable sense.

Oz

 

[jaybird]

jaybird,

Do you believe in the pre-existence of the human soul? If so, would you please provide biblical support for such a view?

thats kinda the problem, there is no explanation, nothing on where we come from, nothing on where we go. the scriptures mention paradise, breath returning to the Most High, Abraham's bosom, the Lord knew us before we were born.

As for the soul and the spirit being 2 different things (your view), I don't find that emphasis in Scripture. I do find this in 2 Cor 4:16 (NET), 'Therefore we do not despair, but even if our physical body is wearing away, our inner person is being renewed day by day'. So the human being is a 2-dimension person - an outer physical body that also has an inner person.

i forgot about the inner person. the person within, Jesus said the kingdom is within us. so what are your thoughts on the being within?
soul and spirit are used together several times in scripture which makes me think they are two different things. different but maybe tightly connected i would think.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Then I find this emphasis in Scripture:

Oz

did you plan on posting another scripture? you ever find yourself standing in a room not knowing why you went in there?

 

[Jim Parker]

the bible says the soul comes from the Most High and returns to the Most High, that would be enough for me to believe the soul never dies.

Two comments:
(1) Please tell me where the Bible says the soul comes from and returns to God. - thanks
(2) There are two variations of the Biblical understanding of immortality and one from Greek philosophy.
First, there is the immortality which God alone has in that there was never a time when He did not exist and, in fact, he is god from before time existed.
1Ti 6:13-16 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Second, There is the immortality which Christ has endowed mankind. (1Cor 15:52-53) That is also referred to as being "incorruptible" meaning that the resurrected body will never again suffer physical death and the decay of the body in the grave.

Greek philosophers (Plato) taught that the soul was immortal having no beginning or end of existence. They considered the soul as having the same eternal existence as the gods. That teaching has no place in Christian doctrine.

iakov the fool

 

[eddif]

where is our soul? are we sure it is contained within our physical body?
the breath goes back to the Most High. that could mean a lot of things. IMO it means we go back to where we were before we were born.
spirit and soul are two different things. i still dont fully get what they are. spirit may be everything, in all things, spirit is used many different ways in scripture, but our soul IMO is unique to each individual.

I like Romans 7:25 as a help.
Romans 7:25 KJV.
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We were made a living soul. (Flesh, carnal mind - will - emotions)

The new birth is more spiritual / abstract (seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus).

eddif

 

[jaybird]

Two comments:
(1) Please tell me where the Bible says the soul comes from and returns to God. - thanks

post 428

Greek philosophers(Plato) taught that the soul was immortal having no beginning or end of existence. They considered the soul as having the same eternal existence as the gods. That teaching has no place in Christian doctrine.

iakov the fool

i dont get why Jesus teaches ask seek, knock, Plato does exactly that yet he is wrong.

 

[eddif]

post 428


i dont get why Jesus teaches ask seek, knock, Plato does exactly that yet he is wrong.

You do realize you are into an area that is pretty deep.

I normally do not even mention things like this:
http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_realism.html

Plato has no Jesus solutions for his comments. Plato is wrong because he lacks Jesus. Plato on some level agrees with Romans 7:25

I wish to not really study Plato’s thoughts.

eddif

 

[jaybird]

You do realize you are into an area that is pretty deep.

I normally do not even mention things like this:
http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_realism.html

Plato has no Jesus solutions for his comments. Plato is wrong because he lacks Jesus. Plato on some level agrees with Romans 7:25

I wish to not really study Plato’s thoughts.

eddif

so people like Plato can cry out for the Most High day end and day out and the Father will just sit there and ignore them? i would never do that to my own lost children and i thought the Almighty loved His children more than i love mine. doesnt sound like the Most High Jesus talked about at all.