The soul of man

[OzSpen]

The Father alone has immortality. Paul outranks any Christian so, the argument is over. The immortal soul doctrine comes from Greek Philosophy. Plato's teachings on the soul were popular at the time the NT was written. Many of the Greeks held this thinking and it eventually worked it's way into Christianity as more and more Greeks became Christians.

By that statement, are you affirming that Christians do not experience eternal life after death?

Also, are you confirming that eternal damnation is not taught by the Bible concerning the destiny of unbelievers?

If there is no immortality for believers and unbelievers, then life ends with death.

Are we just blobs of flesh with breath and when death comes and the last breath is taken, the body is left in the grave to rot and there is no such thing as life after death? Is it as Bertrand Russell, the British philosopher and logician, stated, ‘I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive’? (Russell 1957:43).

He now knows the truth of what happens at death, as he died of influenza on 2 February 1970 at the age of 97.

Oz

Bibliography

Russell, B 1957. Why I am not a Christian. New York: Simon & Shuster.

 

[OzSpen]

Jim, Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?

Butch5,

Col 2:8-9 (ESV) states: 'See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily'.

Therefore, for someone to deny that in Christ the whole fullness of God dwells, is to promote philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition and the spirits of the world.

The conclusion from these 2 verses is that it is deceitful, of human tradition, and of worldly spirits, to deny the Godhead of Jesus. Thus, one cannot be a deceiver, promoting human tradition and worldly spirits, denying Jesus' Godhead - and be affirming Christianity at the same time. Christianity believes the content of Col 2:8-9 (ESV).

To change this content to one's own view (human tradition and world spirits) is to deny Christianity and practise empty deceit.

To deny the Godhood of Jesus is to deny the content of the Christianity and to promote another religion. But it is not Christianity. JWs, Christadelphians and other Arians deny the Godhood of Jesus, so they are affirming another religion besides Christianity.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

By that statement, are you affirming that Christians do not experience eternal life after death?

Only in the reussurection.

Also, are you confirming that eternal damnation is not taught by the Bible concerning the destiny of unbelievers?

Please define eternal damnation.

If there is no immortality for believers and unbelievers, then life ends with death.

Are we just blobs of flesh with breath and when death comes and the last breath is taken, the body is left in the grave to rot and there is no such thing as life after death? Is it as Bertrand Russell, the British philosopher and logician, stated, ‘I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive’? (Russell 1957:43).

He now knows the truth of what happens at death, as he died of influenza on 2 February 1970 at the age of 97.

Oz

Bibliography

Russell, B 1957. Why I am not a Christian. New York: Simon & Shuster.

Exactly! It's clear from the Scriptures that the Father alone has immortality, no one else. The only way believers will have eternal life is by the Father continually giving them life. There is no eternal life for the unbeliever. Eternal life, the gift of God, is given to the believer, not the unbeliever.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,

Col 2:8-9 (ESV) states: 'See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily'.

Therefore, for someone to deny that in Christ the whole fullness of God dwells, is to promote philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition and the spirits of the world.

The conclusion from these 2 verses is that it is deceitful, of human tradition, and of worldly spirits, to deny the Godhead of Jesus. Thus, one cannot be a deceiver, promoting human tradition and worldly spirits, denying Jesus' Godhead - and be affirming Christianity at the same time. Christianity believes the content of Col 2:8-9 (ESV).

To change this content to one's own view (human tradition and world spirits) is to deny Christianity and practise empty deceit.

To deny the Godhood of Jesus is to deny the content of the Christianity and to promote another religion. But it is not Christianity. JWs, Christadelphians and other Arians deny the Godhood of Jesus, so they are affirming another religion besides Christianity.

Oz

What does this have to do with my question? The question was, "Jim, Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?"

 

[OzSpen]

Only in the reussurection.

Please define eternal damnation.

Exactly! It's clear from the Scriptures that the Father alone has immortality, no one else. The only way believers will have eternal life is by the Father continually giving them life. There is no eternal life for the unbeliever. Eternal life, the gift of God, is given to the believer, not the unbeliever.

So you claim that Christians experience eternal life 'only in the resurrection'. This is false according to John 3:16 (ESV), 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes [present tense - continuous action] in him should not perish but have [present tense - continuous action] eternal life'. 1 John 5:13 (ESV) confirms the same message: 'I write these things to you who believe [continue to believe] in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have [continue to have] eternal life.

So, anyone who continues to believe in Jesus, the Son, continues to have eternal life - NOW. It is not at the resurrection that one obtains eternal life.

You ask what eternal damnation is. Haven't you been following the discussion in this thread? There are excellent, contextual reasons to demonstrate that Rev 14:11 (ESV) refers to the damned who experience torment for aeons multiplied by aeons – forever and ever. The verse reads, ‘And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name’. That's what eternal damnation is.

I have provided biblical evidence in this thread that while God has no beginning or end, so he alone has immortality in that sense. However, I've demonstrated from Scripture that:

• 2 Tim 1:10 (ESV): ' and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel'.
  
• 1 Cor 15:53-54 (ESV): 'For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory".

So God alone is immortal, having no beginning and end. HOWEVER, Jesus Christ has brought immortality to light through the Gospel and at the resurrection, this mortal body puts on immortality - it lives forever and ever. It had a beginning but continues forever and that is called immortality by Scripture.

See, Why is the idea of eternal damnation so repulsive to many people?

I will not be going over and over this again as it has been dealt with throughout this thread.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

What does this have to do with my question? The question was, "Jim, Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?"

Everything. Why didn't you read carefully what I wrote?

Col 2:8-9 (ESV) states: 'See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily'.

Therefore, for someone to deny that Jesus is God, i.e. to deny that the whole fullness of God dwells in Jesus, is to promote philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition and the spirits of the world. Such a person is not promoting Christianity, so can't be a Christian.

The conclusion from these 2 verses is that it is deceitful, of human tradition, and of worldly spirits, to deny the Godhead of Jesus. Thus, one cannot be a deceiver, promoting human tradition and worldly spirits, denying Jesus' Godhead - and be affirming Christianity at the same time. Christianity believes the content of Col 2:8-9 (ESV). To deny Jesus' Godhood is to deny the Trinity.

So, a person who denies the full Godhood of Jesus is practising deceit, human tradition, has a worldly spirit, and does not promote the biblical Jesus. Such a person cannot be Christian as he/she supports a Jesus who is an aberration of Christianity.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Everything. Why didn't you read carefully what I wrote?

Col 2:8-9 (ESV) states: 'See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily'.

Therefore, for someone to deny that Jesus is God, i.e. to deny that the whole fullness of God dwells in Jesus, is to promote philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition and the spirits of the world. Such a person is not promoting Christianity, so can't be a Christian.

The conclusion from these 2 verses is that it is deceitful, of human tradition, and of worldly spirits, to deny the Godhead of Jesus. Thus, one cannot be a deceiver, promoting human tradition and worldly spirits, denying Jesus' Godhead - and be affirming Christianity at the same time. Christianity believes the content of Col 2:8-9 (ESV). To deny Jesus' Godhood is to deny the Trinity.

So, a person who denies the full Godhood of Jesus is practising deceit, human tradition, has a worldly spirit, and does not promote the biblical Jesus. Such a person cannot be Christian as he/she supports a Jesus who is an aberration of Christianity.

Oz

Again, it has nothing to do with the question. I didn't deny the Godhood of Jesus. The question is,

Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?"

I doesn't say it in Scripture. You're trying to make a case from Scripture to support the idea. However, there's a difference between making a case from Scripture and Scripture stating something. When Scripture states something, there's not really any interpretation needed. However, when someone makes a case from Scripture often there is interpretation involved.

 

[OzSpen]

Again, it has nothing to do with the question. I didn't deny the Godhood of Jesus. The question is,

Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?"

I doesn't say it in Scripture. You're trying to make a case from Scripture to support the idea. However, there's a difference between making a case from Scripture and Scripture stating something. When Scripture states something, there's not really any interpretation needed. However, when someone makes a case from Scripture often there is interpretation involved.

Which jesus is the non-trinitarian jesus? Will commitment to that jesus save?

Jesus warned us in Matt 24:24 (ESV): 'For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect'.

One cannot be a Christian if one if worshipping a false christ. That's Bible!

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Which jesus is the non-trinitarian jesus? Will commitment to that jesus save?

Jesus warned us in Matt 24:24 (ESV): 'For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect'.

One cannot be a Christian if one if worshipping a false christ. That's Bible!

Oz

How many do you know of? You still haven't answered the question. Where do the Scriptures say that if one doesn't believe in the Trinity they can't be saved. I know why you haven't answered. It's because it's not in the Scriptures. It comes from the Athanasian Creed, not the Bible.
Here is the opening of the Creed.
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

and here is the last line of the creed.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

So, this idea that one must believe in the Trinity is not from the Scriptures it's from some confused men of the fifth century.

 

[OzSpen]

How many do you know of? You still haven't answered the question. Where do the Scriptures say that if one doesn't believe in the Trinity they can't be saved. I know why you haven't answered. It's because it's not in the Scriptures. It comes from the Athanasian Creed, not the Bible.
Here is the opening of the Creed.
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

and here is the last line of the creed.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

So, this idea that one must believe in the Trinity is not from the Scriptures it's from some confused men of the fifth century.

I know of multiple jesus's being believed in and promoted today. Try reading the fellows of the Jesus Seminar (John Dominic Crossan, Robert Funk and Marcus Borg), Rudolph Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Bart Ehrman, D A Carson, N T Wright, Paul Barnett, etc and you'll get a picture of how many Jesuses there are around.

You ask:

Where do the Scriptures say that if one doesn't believe in the Trinity they can't be saved.

Try John 3:16 (ESV): '“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

This is the Jesus one has to believe in to be saved. Is he the Trinitarian Jesus or not? If one has to believe in the Trinitarian Jesus to be saved, then one has to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Don't you get that kind of logic?

Oz

 

[Butch5]

I know of multiple jesus's being believed in and promoted today. Try reading the fellows of the Jesus Seminar (John Dominic Crossan, Robert Funk and Marcus Borg), Rudolph Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Bart Ehrman, D A Carson, N T Wright, Paul Barnett, etc and you'll get a picture of how many Jesuses there are around.

I've more important things to do.

Try John 3:16 (ESV): '“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

This is the Jesus one has to believe in to be saved. Is he the Trinitarian Jesus or not? If one has to believe in the Trinitarian Jesus to be saved, then one has to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Don't you get that kind of logic?

Oz

My Bible doesn't say anything about a Trinitarian Jesus. Can you please explain this?

 

[OzSpen]

I've more important things to do.

I beg your pardon!

You were the one who asked: 'How many [Jesus's] do you know of?' (see #169). I provided you with some evidence to answer your question and now you have the audacity to say, 'I've more important things to do'. If that is the case, then don't bother asking questions for which there are answers that you don't want to hear.

My Bible doesn't say anything about a Trinitarian Jesus. Can you please explain this?

Are you saying that your Bible doesn't say anything about the Jesus who is God? John 1:1 (ESV) contradicts your statement: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. The Word, Jesus, was God.

In the Trinity, Jesus is God:


The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)
May you have a good one,

Oz

 

[WIP]

Nowhere is the word Trinity found in Scripture.

 

[Mike]

Nowhere is the word Trinity found in Scripture.

Correct, so this begs the question of Butch5 . What exactly do you need to see in scripture in order to believe in the fullness of the triune God? You've been given trustworthy support for it, as all of scripture tells us of this aspect of His nature.

 

[OzSpen]

Nowhere is the word Trinity found in Scripture.

But its teaching is!

Nowhere is the word Bible found in Scripture.

Are the words 'hypostatic union' found in the Scripture? Is the teaching of 'hypostatic union' in the Bible?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Correct, so this begs the question of Butch5 . What exactly do you need to see in scripture in order to believe in the fullness of the triune God? You've been given trustworthy support for it, as all of scripture tells us of this aspect of His nature.

Do you want me to provide a list of Scriptures that demonstrate the triune God (Trinity) where:

• The Father is regarded as God;
• The Son is regarded as God; and
• The Holy Spirit is regarded as God?

Oz

 

[Mike]

Do you want me to provide a list of Scriptures that demonstrate the triune God (Trinity) where:

• The Father is regarded as God;
• The Son is regarded as God; and
• The Holy Spirit is regarded as God?

Oz

Did you mean pose this to me? I don't need to be convinced of the Trinity. This is a mystery of the true nature of God that I'll probably never comprehend but do apprehend, to use a Hank Hanegraaff phrase. To not accept His triune nature, is to not know Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

How many do you know of? You still haven't answered the question. Where do the Scriptures say that if one doesn't believe in the Trinity they can't be saved. I know why you haven't answered. It's because it's not in the Scriptures. It comes from the Athanasian Creed, not the Bible.
Here is the opening of the Creed.
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

and here is the last line of the creed.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

So, this idea that one must believe in the Trinity is not from the Scriptures it's from some confused men of the fifth century.

Hi Butch5,
I just got here and apologize if I haven't understood something.

Why were the men of the 5th century confused?
I cannot find anything confused in the 3 points of the Athanasian Creed which you have listed.

Thanks.
Wondering

 

[Butch5]

Nowhere is the word Trinity found in Scripture.

That's correct. Nowhere in Scripture is the modern teaching that there is a being called God who consists of three persons. People read that into the text.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,
I just got here and apologize if I haven't understood something.

Why were the men of the 5th century confused?
I cannot find anything confused in the 3 points of the Athanasian Creed which you have listed.

Thanks.
Wondering

Hi Wondering,

They were confused because some of the statements in that creed are illogical. The men who wrote this creed went far beyond the creeds that came before. Then they had the audacity to say that if anyone didn't believe what they wrote they couldn't be saved. A lot of Christians claim that if you don't believe in the Trinity, which they define as a being called God who consists of three persons, you can't be saved. However, there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches this. The idea is first seen in the Athanasian Creed.