The soul of man

[smaller]

Did I say "just smoke"??? No! Why misrepresent what I said???

It seemed you wanted smoke but no torment.

How you get "no accompanying torment" from my post is odd understanding.

Cut to the chase. What is it you're trying to claim? Torment and smoke both end, but the smoke keeps rising? Where is UP in that equation anyway? Do we have gravity in heaven?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (LEB) who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, ​

I'm pretty sure there is just such a place. A place of destruction.

Brilliant deduction. The question however is, IS said torment for ever and ever. I believe that case is clear enough, yes.

I will consent that our minds have difficulties coming to grips with some of these types of things. For example, I've noted on this subject prior that we all have difficulties coming to grips with unseen entities to start with. But we do have them to deal with in scriptures aka Satan and devils.

Even a Jezebel for example, with children, whom JESUS will kill.

Rev. 2:
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death

What are we to make of this account? That Jesus is a BABY KILLER?

At some point we might learn to grapple with the fact that a lot of these statements are dealing with adverse spiritual beings and matters UNSEEN.

In the case for example of Anti-Christ spirits. How do we really "define" what those kinds of 'spirits' are, and be anywhere close to understanding? It's no small challenge. Particularly when we CAN'T SEE THEM physically.

IF they are "against" Christ in "every way" they might even LIKE the LoF.

In my mind the LoF can just as easily be seen as AN ANTI-HEAVEN for ANTI-CHRIST spirits.

Dig?

Well, maybe not. But you might get the picture a little bit. It's NOT easy subject matter. Certainly NOT as easy as the hand me down understandings we've been given from various churches and dime store novels about end times and the all the fanciful nonsense with "pat answers" that most believers march around with in their heads as supposed "Gospel truth."

Do I have any issues with the eternal forever and ever torment of the devil and his messengers. Nope. Not even for a minute do I have issues with that. Because a very solid case can be made for that from the scriptures. And not just Revelation.

But to even derive such sights requires a basic understanding that we ARE dealing with factual unseen adverse agents and agencies here:

Eph. 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I'd suspect the majority at any christian organization or flock have a very hard time even understanding their/our own sins are "OF THE DEVIL." 1 John 3:8.

Yet alone being able to sort our ways through the figures and images of Revelation or O.T. prophesies regarding these matters and how they are all linked. I've spent a long lifetime of studies in these things and the ONLY solid answer I have at this point is that the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS are going to be taken out of the picture. That's as far as I can determine. And I feel pretty comfortable making that case in writing. But as to what exactly constitutes torment? We know that LOVE for example TORMENTS them, because they are OPPOSERS of God in Christ and somewhat then OPPOSITES of Christ.

Song of Solomon 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

Do we even have a grasp of the above? Paul deploys it again, here:

Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

And what do we make of THIS?:

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

It's just not easy territory. So many postures are what I might consider just one liners without much hitting power of understandings behind them. It's much more complex than we perceive or are even able to perceive. And I submit to this fact, personally, and distrust ANY who claim to have "all the answers."

Do I think the opening poster is right? Nope. But that's an equally extended measure to all of us. Nobody is really right enough to see that, forward, yet.

When we do, we'll all know it.

 

[OzSpen]

Might be good to get things back on topic.

WIP,

Here's my beginning attempt at dealing with the soul of human beings from an understanding of immortality of the soul.

By immortality of the soul, I understand that human beings in their spiritual dimension survive death consciously and live forever. C. S. Lewis wrote: “The earliest Christian documents give ascent to the belief that the supernatural or invisible part of man survives the death of the body” (Lewis 1966:29).

Since the Bible teaches progressive revelation from the Old Testament (OT) to the New Testament (NT), we do not see a full expression of the immortality of the soul in the OT. Here’s a brief statement of what we find:

Old Testament and death
The OT affirms the hope of life after death in bodily terms. The doctrine of OT immortality is seen mostly in view of resurrection. Since human beings were created from the dust (Gen. 2:7), the expectation was that they would return to dust (Eccles. 12:7 ESV). However, this latter verse also teaches that “the spirit returns to God who gave it”. Therefore, the OT teaching does not support soul sleep, extinction or annihilation, but the human spirit going to God at death. That applies to the just and the unjust, i.e. all human beings (see below).

In the OT there are passages that support resurrection of people and that the dead would be brought back to life. See Scriptures such as Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6; Job 19:25-27, and Ps. 49:14-15. Ps. 49:15 (ESV) states, “But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.”

In Isaiah there is evidence of the resurrection of the dead: “Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!” (Isa 26:19 ESV). In Dan. 12:2 (ESV), we read, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The language of “the dust of the earth” shows the OT doctrine of the physical resurrection of people after death. “Sleep” is using the language of the phenomenon we see when a person breathes his/her last breath. Soul sleep is not a biblical teaching.

While the Sadducees rejected the teaching on the material resurrection of the dead, the Pharisees supported it (Matt. 22:23, 28). Martha demonstrated her belief in the resurrection of the dead when she said after the death of her brother, Lazarus, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day” (John 11:24 ESV).

Jesus Christ and resurrection
Christ believed that the OT taught resurrection when he refuted the Sadducees. He told them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matt. 22:29 ESV). Then Jesus quoted Exodus 3:6, 15: “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32 ESV).

Note especially the closing statement here: “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

The dead are living!!
In the book of Revelation, we find an example of the souls of martyred people who are conscious and in their place of abode (and it was not the grave): "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne" (Rev. 6:9 ESV).

As for the wicked, even the beast and the false prophet who were thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) were alive 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:10). What will happen to the devil, the beast and the false prophet (who are unbelievers)? "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10 ESV). There's no soul sleep here!

Oz

Works consulted

C. S. Lewis 1966, Miracles. New York: Macmillan Co.

 

[chessman]

It seemed you wanted smoke but no torment.

Nope. The smoke of their torment going up forever is Scripture. Just like Edom's destruction smoke still rises yet Edom is not still burning.

Cut to the chase. What is it you're trying to claim?

What I said:

Notice, it does NOT say "continuing torment". And even more importantly this torment occurs in the presence of the Lamb. It's illogical and hard to believe that the Lamb is present in the Lake of Fire.

Rev 14:11 is not descriptive of the lost's torment in the Lake of Fire. It's descriptive of pre-judgment events occuring at Christ's second coming. As we see John describe in the very next verses:

Revelation 14:13 (LEB) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”​

Is it your view that people "die in the Lord" after the lost go to the Lake of Fire?

 

[smaller]

Nope. The smoke of their torment going up forever is Scripture. Just like Edom's destruction smoke still rises yet Edom is not still burning.

What I said:

Rev 14:11 is not descriptive of the lost's torment in the Lake of Fire. It's descriptive of pre-judgment events occuring at Christ's second coming. As we see John describe in the very next verses:

Revelation 14:13 (LEB) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”​

Is it your view that people "die in the Lord" after the lost go to the Lake of Fire?

I don't believe any person exists after death, in the way they "think" they are, now.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[chessman]

we do not see a full expression of the immortality of the soul in the OT.

Nor in the NT. We find the complete opposite, in fact.

Matthew 10:28English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Direct from Jesus in the NT. The soul can be destroyed in Hell.

The OT affirms the hope of life after death in bodily terms.

Sure, for the righteous. Never for the unrighteous.

As for the wicked, even the beast and the false prophet who were thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) were alive 1,000 years later

Yes, and they remain there forever. They do not stand before Christ on judgment day with all the lost humans. Why??? Because John tells us they are visionary descriptions of very real demons.

Rev 16:13 (ESV) And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.​

The Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.​

 

[chessman]

The question however is, IS said torment for ever and ever. I believe that case is clear enough, yes.

Okay. But putting said 'continuing torment for ever and ever' in quotation marks and referring to Rev 14:11 is misquoting what John actually said in the verse. Maybe he did mean continuing torment forever, I don't know. But it's not what he actually said. I do know that the smoke from Edom's destruction is described as "rising forever" yet it's not still burning.

Where is UP in that equation anyway? Do we have gravity in heaven?

What equation?

Rev 14 is not describing the New Heaven (or Hell). That's the point. Gravity is still in effect during Rev 14. For goodness sake, I just showed where saved people are still dying during this part of John's vision. It's describing events (yes torment and death) happening on this old Earth just prior to the reaping of the Earth. And prior to the Judgment. It's not even about post-judgment punishment.

 

[smaller]

Okay. But putting said 'continuing torment for ever and ever' in quotation marks and referring to Rev 14:11 is misquoting what John actually said in the verse. Maybe he did mean continuing torment forever, I don't know.

It's that version you use (LEB). I don't care for it at all myself. It's a butcher job. Seriously. If I owned one I'd toss it in the trash.

But yes, it's abundantly clear that "torment" is in the sentence with forever and ever, bolstered by "no rest day and night." Rev. 14:11. Doubled in a particular fashioned verbiage, for emphasis, as we've spoken of previously. We should also understand this means no small amount of "spiritual to spiritual" comparative analysis is demanded (always demanded, 1 Cor. 2:13). Day and night are not physical/literal as we understand the terms in this application.

John was "in the Spirit" when recording all of the information, so the entire sight of Rev. demands that over riding factor. Anyone just reading Rev. casually should be able to pick up on the fact that the sights in Rev. are from the perspective of the Spirit, as is the 'language' deployed, Spiritual.

But it's not what he actually said. I do know that the smoke from Edom's destruction is described as "rising forever" yet it's not still burning.

When we're reading the O.T. we are observing "figures" of things to come. All of those writings demand 'comparative' analysis, as Paul shows us. Paul for example understood the Law and the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael as 'allegory.' Gal. 4:24. IF that is the case, (it is) then allegory is a much broader topic than most will see, as applied to the O.T. writings. I would present that allegory is demanded in order for Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 to be legitimate WORDS from Jesus. This pretty well wipes out "historical" applications and "time lines."

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Paul took very little, if ANY, literal understandings from the O.T. NOT denying they were literal events. But that is not the way to approach the scriptures whatsoever.

Even the law speaks of these things:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come,

What equation?

When we see a term of "smoke rising up" it is not speaking of gravity and direction, nor is it "smoke" as we perceive "smoke" in the natural senses. Smoke is a figure of the anger/fury/Jealousy of God. Gods Own Name is JEALOUSY. Ex. 34:14. His "anger" or "jealousy" SMOKES. Deut. 29:20.

Rev 14 is not describing the New Heaven (or Hell). That's the point. Gravity is still in effect during Rev 14. For goodness sake, I just showed where saved people are still dying during this part of John's vision. It's describing events (yes torment and death) happening on this old Earth just prior to the reaping of the Earth. And prior to the Judgment. It's not even about post-judgment punishment.

Uh, no. Trying to apply earthly timelines in Rev. doesn't work. NOR is vs. 10-11 speaking of things happening on earth. It's a "shall" be event in Rev. 14:10-11.

Even the term "time" in Rev. doesn't mean "time" on an earth clock. When the Angel in Rev. 10 calls an end to 'time' it is not speaking of a 24 hour earth clock. If you wanted to apply time in your fashion, then go to Rev. 10 and see the fact that there will "BE TIME NO LONGER" Time is not "time on an earth clock" in Rev.

A lot of what we are reading in Rev. is dealing with the devil and his messengers in the Spiritual Realm. From a timeline perspective the accounts will wind from back in creation, to present, to future, then they will start again. The "general" Divine cadence is "what was/is/and will be."

It's not an easy document to get a firm grip on. On purpose.

Rev. 1:
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

There is one of the patterns of understandings, to be applied. How is a much deeper study. It has little if anything to do with a hard earth time clock and linear time whatsoever. The Discourses are cadences of past/present/future.

Rev. 20 pretty well nails the fact of eternal torment:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And that clip, is essentially the same statement in Rev. 14:10-11 where the fact is delivered as a "shall be, vs. 10," prior to the reality of Rev. 20:10. Which is the general point, that eternal torment is in fact eternal.

As to your prior question about those who "die in the Lord" being in the LoF. In Rev. we are advised this:

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

What that doesn't mean is that we won't be witness to it, even IN it, since it transpires in the Presence of the Lamb, and presumably WE will be "in The Lamb."

So this christian fairytale notion that "hell" is someplace away from us in the darkness of netherland where we don't ever see it while we are partying with Jesus forever and ever, is in fact a fallacy.

For the record the E.O. is probably the only 'sect' that has a decent handle on this subject, imho, as a sect anyway.

 

[Bick]

Why do you assume that the Bible (in it's popular abridged western form) is the only source of truth?

Consider:
1Co 15:51-54 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Do you assume that when all mankind is raised from the dead and made imperishable and immortal that they will have no souls?

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

It's that version you use (LEB). I don't care for it at all myself. It's a butcher job. Seriously. If I owned one I'd toss it in the trash.

Do you own a version that has Rev 14:11 translated as "continuing torment"? Because none of the ones I looked up do, yet you put "continuing torment" in quotes. Which version were you quoting? Your own?

Day and night are not physical/literal as we understand the terms in this application.

Does your translation say day and night are not physical/literal?

Uh, no. Trying to apply earthly timelines in Rev. doesn't work

Uh, yes it does.

Revelation 1:1-3 (LEB) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his slaves the things which must take place in a short time, and communicated it by sending it through his angel to his slave John, who testified about the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud and blessed are those who hear the words of the prophecy and observe the things written in it, because the time is near! ​

...

Revelation 14:6 (LEB) And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,​

I'm thinking this passage really is about those who reside on earth and worship The Beast during a time prior to the judgment of all people. You know, that's what it says.

I would present that allegory is demanded in order for Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 to be legitimate WORDS from Jesus. This pretty well wipes out "historical" applications and "time lines."

Huh? Rev 14:11 is allegory because Matt 4:4 is allegory? BTW, is their torment allegorical or just the fact that these people are resident on earth, day and night?

Rev. 20 pretty well nails the fact of eternal torment:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Yes, if taken literally versus allegorical, it does for those of whom it speaks. The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet (The Devil and his messagers).
But didn't you just say that time "will wind from back in creation, to present, to future"
in this allegory?

And that clip, is essentially the same statement in Rev. 14:10-11

Ah, I see. So you clipped the eternal torment spoken of for The Devil and his messagers from Rev 20 into Rev 14:11. I prefer not to do that type of study myself. I think if eternal torment was meant to be in Rev 14:11, it would be there. Does the Bible version you prefer have it there?

Notice the SoF for this site makes a distinction between the eternal presence of Satan and his angels in Hell versus the unspecified duration of the lost's punishment in Hell.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.​

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.​

I assume precisely because Scripture does make a distinction too. My view is 100% consistent with this site's SoF.

Notice that it says both Heaven and Hell are real "literal" places too. The saved "dwelling forever" in their place, the lost punished (indeed with unspecified duration of torment) in theirs. My view is that punishment mirrors/reflects what Christ suffered (torment then death). But the idea of the Lamb being present in the place of the lost's punishment seems antithetical to this SoF. But whatever, I do appreciate your answer to my question and I understand your answer.

What that doesn't mean is that we won't be witness to it, even IN it, since it transpires in the Presence of the Lamb, and presumably WE will be "in The Lamb."

Does your version of the Bible say that even the saved will be "in it", The Lake of Fire? If so, you should toss it, in my opinion. At some point, the allegory has to be real.

But I do appreciate you having the confidence in your views to answer my questions about how the torment of those worshippers of The Beast on earth occurs in the presence of The Lamb and my other questions as well.

I think this is a good place for us two to simply agree to disagree on our views about Rev 14:11.

BTW, is there any passages that you can show how the LEB "butchered" the Greek manuscripts' Text?

Revelation 14:11 (LEB) And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name. ​

Revelation 14:11 (KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

Other than the "ascendeth", receiveth" "whosoever" old English spellings, I don't see any real difference in these two versions. Both seem fine to me.

"For thus saith the Lord" or "For thus says the Lord", same thing really. Neither of which are in the language Jesus spoke anyway, as if Jesus spoke in the old english.

I like the fact that the LEB italicizes the words that are not in the original Greek and footnotes why they've been inserted. I actually prefer to read texts just ignoring the added words. It often reads just fine and understandable without the additional words. But the NASB, ESV, NKJV and the KJV are fine versions that I often use. So is the LEB. You'd have to get pretty nit picky to tell any difference.

Got any real proof that the LEB has butchered Texts or is that just your gut-feel opinion? Have you even read much of it?

 

[smaller]

Do you own a version that has Rev 14:11 translated as "continuing torment"?

For ever and ever and no rest day nor night would point to that without any doubt.

Does your translation say day and night are not physical/literal?

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Revelation 1:1-3 (LEB)
Revelation 14:6 (LEB)
I'm thinking this passage really is about those who reside on earth and worship The Beast during a time prior to the judgment of all people. You know, that's what it says.

That wasn't the point made. The "forever and ever no rest day nor night" is a shall event of the LoF. Not at that point, which point culminates in Rev. 20:10, as noted prior. Rev. 14:10: -"and he shall be tormented"

If we wanted to bear down on this subject there is a certain amount of torment that transpires even on earth, prior to the LoF.

Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Huh? Rev 14:11 is allegory because Matt 4:4 is allegory? BTW, is their torment allegorical or just the fact that these people are resident on earth, day and night?

Covered in the last post in enough detail. Spiritual to Spiritual comparison takes us out and away from a strictly literal understanding. Literal has it's role in physical reality, but the Word is not "bound" into physical understanding only.

We are to hope, pray, do good, love and be at peace with/for "all mankind" unless and until we are shown otherwise. John 5:23, John 13:35, Acts 17:30, Romans 12:17-18, 1 Cor. 9:22, 2 Cor. 9:13, Romans 13:8-10, Gal. 6:10, Eph. 3:9, 1 Thes. 3:12, 1 Tim. 2:1, James 1:5

Yes, if taken literally versus allegorical, it does for those of whom it speaks. The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet (The Devil and his messagers).
But didn't you just say that time "will wind from back in creation, to present, to future" in this allegory?

No, I noted, from text that the "accounts" in Rev. were seen/recorded from the perspective of the Spirit in past/present/future repeating cadence, and that the document isn't a direct linear point to point in earth time record as one might view a standard recording of progressive events in physical history for example.

Ah, I see. So you clipped the eternal torment spoken of for The Devil and his messagers from Rev 20 into Rev 14:11. I prefer not to do that type of study myself. I think if eternal torment was meant to be in Rev 14:11, it would be there. Does the Bible version you prefer have it there?

See above note on present torment. The LoF speaks directly to thee END of the devil and his messengers workings. And yes, there will be such an end, as noted in Rev. 14:10-11 "shall" and in Rev. 20:10 as a final notation.

Notice the SoF for this site makes a distinction between the eternal presence of Satan and his angels in Hell versus the unspecified duration of the lost's punishment in Hell.

I doubt it's a statement of purgatory in the SoF.

I assume precisely because Scripture does make a distinction too. My view is 100% consistent with this site's SoF.

I haven't seen any official ban here on eternal death as opposed to torment. I do not think a double standard will be applied to the occupants of the LoF nor does the SoF indicate that means "eternal death" as opposed to "eternal torment" or "purgatory." Traditional orthodoxy has been somewhat cautious about falling headlong into making specific people in hell claims for good reasons. The bulk of their scholars anyway. I accept the reasons they don't, per the above statements of scripture. I also think the bulk of protestant camps got a little ahead of themselves on the subject.

But the idea of the Lamb being present in the place of the lost's punishment seems antithetical to this SoF.

Covered this prior. There is every reason to see Jesus Is Omnipresent.

Does your version of the Bible say that even the saved will be "in it", The Lake of Fire? If so, you should toss it, in my opinion. At some point, the allegory has to be real.

NO, there is no indication believers will be IN IT unless we are in Christ and Christ is Omnipresent. Do the math of the Lamb's Presence from there. I prefer to think that In Christ there is a notion of Omnipresence for His Heavenly Body of which we will be a part of. I tend not to see God in any way as anything other than "all there is" and "all that matters." And I never said allegory wasn't real. Allegories take physical descriptions and use these things as correlatives or comparisons to Spiritual REALITY. There is physical reality and there is Spiritual Reality, simultaneously. They are however two different natures, and one is subservient, the physical, to the Spiritual. Within the Spiritual realm there are also 2 different and opposed workings. Good and evil are "reflected" in the physical, but they are originated in the unseen/spiritual-Spiritual realm.

But I do appreciate you having the confidence in your views to answer my questions about how the torment of those worshippers of The Beast on earth occurs in the presence of The Lamb and my other questions as well.
I think this is a good place for us two to simply agree to disagree on our views about Rev 14:11.

Pretty minor point from what I see. You appear to be making a case for annihilation, but only for people, not devils. Different wrinkle on an old topic. I've used this observation prior, but if eternal death is the end game, is there really a need for God to revive and torture? Kind of pointless imho. Just leave them dead and gone after the first round death.

BTW, is there any passages that you can show how the LEB "butchered" the Greek manuscripts' Text?

Revelation 14:11 (LEB)
Revelation 14:11 (KJV) ​

Other than the "ascendeth", receiveth" "whosoever" old English spellings, I don't see any real difference in these two versions. Both seem fine to me.

Look at how the LEB translates John 3:16 OR, where it translates the term "man" or "men" to people/persons. The reason I detest such changes is that the scriptural construct of man/people is not as easy to perceive as a casual translator(s) perceives, no matter how well educated they are. It's much more subtle. There is a requirement to concede to the construct in order to have a decent translation.

For example, many translations take the term "they" and turn it into "people." They is quite purposeful, because of the subtleties involved in the construct of man. Just as the term "ye" and "you" when applied to people indicate both plural in one application and individual in another. And these differences are very specifically made. IF you ever understand the "spiritual reality" of Mark 4:15 for example, you'd understand the reasons for applications such as "ye" and "you."

Yes, Jesus does address "ye" as a man and He also pinpoints specific measures to "you" as that same man, apart from the "ye."

These fine lines are gone in a lot of translations. I could go on but hope you see the point, someday anyway.

"For thus saith the Lord" or "For thus says the Lord", same thing really. Neither of which are in the language Jesus spoke anyway, as if Jesus spoke in the old english.

I wouldn't gripe about that one. For studies I still prefer the KJV with the Hebrew/Aramaic individual word meanings close at hand. Just old habits after pouring through the scriptures for 3 plus decades.

You'd have to get pretty nit picky to tell any difference. Got any real proof that the LEB has butchered Texts or is that just your gut-feel opinion? Have you even read much of it?

Actually I haven't used it at all. Kinda know what to expect on the bulk of the alternatives and from the citings of other folk who use them.

I do from time to time cite other versions when I think they use more to the point language. Romans 11:32 for example from the NIV is actually my preferred for that particular citing because it's much more to the point and easier for others to understand. But for the most part I don't care for the NIV much at all for the reasons above.

The bulk of variations that I point out revolve around what we think of as people. In scriptural sight people are not "individuals." Believers will err in their judgments if they think that is the case. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8.

That error in judgment is actually caused by our adversary, blinding spiritual insight, as our adversary is meant to do and perform.

 

[chessman]

is there really a need for God to revive and torture? Kind of pointless imho. Just leave them dead and gone after the first round death.

Yes, there's a need. It's called accounting for worthlessness on the day of judgment in the LEB and in the translation you prefer too.

Matthew 12:36-37 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment! For by your words you will be vindicated, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matthew 12:36-37 (KJV) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
​

I'm pretty sure that people (men and women) will give account on the day of judgment.

Actually I haven't used it at all. Kinda know what to expect ...

Yea, that's what I thought.

 

[smaller]

Yes, there's a need. It's called accounting for worthlessness on the day of judgment in the LEB and in the translation you prefer too.

Matthew 12:36-37 (LEB) But I tell you that every worthless word that they speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment! For by your words you will be vindicated, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matthew 12:36-37 (KJV) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
​

I'm pretty sure that people (men and women) will give account on the day of judgment.

See previous scriptural notes on the "present reality" construct of MAN. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8.

When we "attempt" to understand any scripture, the Divine Dynamic mandates 3 parties on the table of understandings. God/Satan/Man.

Let's make it even more interesting. Here are Paul's facts:

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Do you see "just the man, Paul" in that sight? Paul did NOT:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is it conceivable in your sight that the EVIL PRESENT with Paul was the messenger of Satan? Do you see JUST PAUL?

I don't. Nor does scripture see JUST PAUL.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And just "how" does this happen?

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Scripture demands that "MAN" be viewed in the above sight. In that depiction of FACT above, there is MAN, there is SATAN, there is Gods Words. It's a 3 party system. This "3 party" dynamic is in force with every line and every Word of scripture.

Now, if we take this understanding of facts to Revelation, what is it really about? We can see the workings of spiritual adversity in all 7 of the churches of Revelation, even the term Satan deployed 4 times to the churches.

Revelation is the "Revealing of Christ" in US as a final chapter, and the "destruction of our spiritual adversaries."

Where does that destruction, that "tribulation take place for believers?"

Do the math.

 

[Jim Parker]

What did you want to say?
It didn't show up.

 

[OzSpen]

Okay. But putting said 'continuing torment for ever and ever' in quotation marks and referring to Rev 14:11 is misquoting what John actually said in the verse. Maybe he did mean continuing torment forever, I don't know. But it's not what he actually said. I do know that the smoke from Edom's destruction is described as "rising forever" yet it's not still burning.

You can argue about the interpretation and I think you have a point. Let's look at the verse: 'And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name' (Rev 14:11 ESV).

'Goes up', anabainei, is the present tense, indicative mood of anabainw. Since it is present tense in Greek, the meaning is demonstrated in continuous action. So the interpretation is: 'The smoke of their torment continues to go up for ever and ever'.

You seem to be overlooking the continuous action of the Greek present tense in this clause.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Nope. The smoke of their torment going up forever is Scripture. Just like Edom's destruction smoke still rises yet Edom is not still burning.


What I said:


Rev 14:11 is not descriptive of the lost's torment in the Lake of Fire. It's descriptive of pre-judgment events occuring at Christ's second coming. As we see John describe in the very next verses:

Revelation 14:13 (LEB) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”​

Is it your view that people "die in the Lord" after the lost go to the Lake of Fire?

Why don't you back quote so I know which post to which you refer?

 

[OzSpen]

The Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.​

Your own verse refutes your position. The eternal fire for those on Jesus' left (unbelievers, see Matt 25: 31-32 (ESV) and Matt 25:41 (ESV)) is for unbelievers ('the goats'), the devil and his angels.

It's amazing how you can ignore the context to try to push your anti-eternal punishment for unbelievers. Seems like a blind spot there!

Oz

 

[chessman]

Why don't you back quote so I know which post to which you refer?

I do and I did in that post too. And I've pointed your browser's error out to you in the past. Others have too. Your browser has technical issues if you cannot see my (and others) back-quotes. Why don't you fix your browser or use one that works better. Or just stop telling people to use back-quote when they are already doing so. You are the one that needs to fix your problems. Ever thought that you might be the one with errors, not me???

You seem to be overlooking the continuous action of the Greek present tense in this clause.

No. I never said that the Text doesn't say the smoke doesn't go up forever (continuously). I said the Text doesn't indicate their torment continues forever. Which is true, it doesn't.

After you fix your browser problem, can you explain from the Greek grammar how long the Greek word translated "torment" indicates their "torture" lasts? That's the issue (their torment), not how long the smoke from it continues to rise.

 

[chessman]

Notice that while speaking about the goats' (unbelieving humans) punishment, the verse specifically says that the eternal fire is prepared for the the devil and his angels (not lost people). That's my point. Why not say that the eternal fire is prepared for lost humans???

It's like saying the lost will be cast into the middle of the ocean (prepared for fish to live) and drown.

It's amazing how you can ignore the context to try to push your anti-eternal punishment for unbelievers. Seems like a blind spot there!

Matthew 25:41-42 (NKJV) “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;​

What happens to humans when no food or drink is available??? They perish.
What happens to demons when no food or drink is available??? They never perish.

It's amazing how you can ignore the context to try to push your eternal punishment for human unbelievers. Seems like a blind spot there!

 

[smaller]

Notice that while speaking about the goats' (unbelieving humans) punishment, the verse specifically says that the eternal fire is prepared for the the devil and his angels (not lost people). That's my point. Why not say that the eternal fire is prepared for lost humans???

Brilliant deduction. You're probably the only poster I've seen make that quite accurate conclusion.

The difficulty that "every" believer has when they read that scripture is that the automatically think they are a sheep and only ever and always only do sheep works. But, an honest person will conclude that they do BOTH sheep works, and when they don't, they ARE doing GOAT WORKS.

A hypocrite is not able, will not, can not and never will read that scripture accurately and derive their/our factual status as BOTH.

What happens to humans when no food or drink is available??? They perish.
What happens to demons when no food or drink is available??? They never perish.

Again, brilliant conclusion. IN the account of Matt. 25, it is completely about the account of "the devil and his messengers" being separated out of the world, OUT of mankind, and sent to the fire prepared for them.

The same statement is made earlier in Matt. here:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

It's amazing how you can ignore the context to try to push your eternal punishment for human unbelievers. Seems like a blind spot there!

I know you're addressing to Oz. Where we all stumble though is understanding that we "all" work iniquity. IF we understand that our own sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, we'll see the separation and that gathering out of iniquity spoken of in Matt. 25 transpires upon US, even IN US.

How many believers, for centuries, have cowered in FEAR to HEAR Jesus' Words here?

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Every reader will either "excuse" the fact that they are sinners, workers of iniquity on Jesus' back, and claim by that they are not workers of iniquity, just like the hypocrite that can't derive they do goat works when not doing sheep works.

A person who hears will understand those Words DO apply to them and BE GLAD to hear them.

 

[chessman]

The difficulty that "every" believer has when they read that scripture is that the automatically think they are a sheep and only ever and always only do sheep works.

Who were you quoting that said "every believer" ...? I was quoting you just then, so I used quotation marks.

BTW, I do see your overall point and don't necessarily disagree with you.