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The Story of the Rich Young Ruler - Are We Hypocrites?

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ThinkerMan said:
As you know Soma, if recollect my NT correctly, Jesus actually says its very difficult. Something about a camel and a needle, if I remember correctly.

Something most of the posts here seem to illustrate perfectly.

But I guess Jesus was only talking about that camel and that needle. Not camels and needles in general.

Apparently most camels can pass through needle eyes quite easily, with the exception of the one in question who happend to be grazing by Jesus that day.

Kudos to Drew and Soma for raising the difficult questions here.

destiny said:
It appears judgmentalism, hypocrisy, and self righteousness flow pretty freely here too!

Gary_Bee said:
Destiny, I think you started that "spirit" some time ago when you challenged ThinkerMan, a declared atheist, with this comment:
destiny said:
It appears judgmentalism, hypocrisy, and self righteousness flow pretty freely here too!

destiny said:
Gary, Do you believe if someone is going to use the bible to preach how to live to others, whether atheist or otherwise, then they themselves should already be practicing the standards that they are setting for others?
Hypocrisy is pointing the finger at someone else, when you yourself aren't living it. I say lead by example.

I fail to understand where you get that from ThinkerMan's comments. If you are referring to Drew and Soma, ThinkerMan was only complementing them on raising and discussing the difficult issue. I still do not see the need for your comment. But at least you now agree that you initiated this "judgmentalism, hypocrisy, and self righteousness" attack on the posters!

:)
 
Bibleberean said:
(1) The reformation of men is very commendable, as are all forms of "Social Service," but that is not the work or mission of the Church.

Gary said:
There is a time for ministering to the poor, the sick, the naked, and the imprisoned.

Bibleberean said:
(2) Can't argue with that...

HUH??? So which is it? You contradict yourself again.

:-?
 
Gary_Bee said:
Gary I know you are a man of God, you don't have to defend youself to me. I'm sure we have put on quite a performance for the atheists and everyone else today, but in spight of all that I still think of you as a brother. Good night. :biggrin
 
Good night Destiny. God bless you!

I apologize for my sharp tongue... or fast keyboard!

:biggrin
 
When my mother had cancer and was suffering for a prolonged time her medical and hospital bills ran up into the multiple thousands of dollars.

One day she received a letter from the hospital that her debts were forgiven.

It turns out that there are many wealthy people who offered the hospital to pay percentage of her bills and call her debt good.

I am glad that God has entrusted people with wealth and that they invest it wisely and make enough money to contribute to those less fortunate than themselves.

If everyone gave away all that they have there would be no one left to help anyone since everyone would be impoverished.

The United States for all of it's faults is a very generous nation.

Thank you Lord Jesus!

Luke 7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

Luke 7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

Luke 7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

Luke 7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:

People with wealth are not evil because they are wealthy. They can do much good with their money.
 
If everyone gave away all that they have there would be no one left to help anyone since everyone would be impoverished.

if everyoen gave all they could, and these suh instances came up, they would think back to teh time someone saved them, and gave all they could for them, and then would help the other.

Money would begin to lose its value, because, instead of doing things for gain ,, we would be doing things for the sake of generosity.
 
bibleberean said:
If everyone gave away all that they have there would be no one left to help anyone since everyone would be impoverished.

Yes, if everyone gave literally all they had, they would likely (though not necessarily - giving away all your money doesn't mean you're next paycheck isn't coming soon) succumb to poverty. Yeah, and?

You can give away everything but what is necessary for subsistence plus some savings to keep you safe in the event of an emergency. Even if you don't do that, it's hard to argue that there's ever a time that you need to buy a Porsche. No matter how wealthy you are, you don't need a Porsche. You don't need a big, expensive house. You don't need to go on vacation in Europe. You don't need a television. Trying to rationalize these as anything other than selfish indulgences is doomed to failure, because they are exactly that: selfish indulgences. The only reason you go out and buy a new television is because you value that television more than you value the good that could be done by giving that money to someone needy. Period.

Which isn't to say that greed is all bad. Greed is what drives the economy. It gives people jobs. It gives people the motivation to succeed, and that success, ultimately, helps everyone by creating a more lucrative economic environment in which we can all fare better, and also, it so happens, have the money to give more to charity. Greed is good. Capitalism is good. Materialism, to an extent, is good.

But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that HDTV is sitting on our shelf as our own little attempt to drive the economy and make everyone's life richer and fuller. That HDTV is there because we wanted to buy it to fulfill our own materialistic desires. And there's nothing wrong with that, provided you can be honest with yourself. Let the William Bennetts and Bill Gates of the world buy their luxuries, let them indulge in the things that ridiculous, obscene wealth can provide. They also do a lot of good with their money. The wealthy are notoriously philanthropic. Could they give more? Of course. Could they give more without any substantial hit to their own well-being? Certainly. Should we care, or condemn them? Not at all.
 
The argument that "If everyone gave away all that they have there would be no one left to help anyone since everyone would be impoverished" is simply not correct. One's capability to help the poor is not a function of how much stuff you have, but rather depends on your wealth generation potential. If Fred gives aways $ 100,000, he still wakes up the next morning, goes to work and gets paid as much as he would otherwise. Fred's generosity in no way reduces his future potential to do more good. Kudos for Fred.

ElJeffe said:
Trying to rationalize these as anything other than selfish indulgences is doomed to failure, because they are exactly that: selfish indulgences. The only reason you go out and buy a new television is because you value that television more than you value the good that could be done by giving that money to someone needy. Period.
Truer words were never spoken.

ElJeffe said:
Which isn't to say that greed is all bad. Greed is what drives the economy. It gives people jobs. It gives people the motivation to succeed, and that success, ultimately, helps everyone by creating a more lucrative economic environment in which we can all fare better, and also, it so happens, have the money to give more to charity. Greed is good. Capitalism is good. Materialism, to an extent, is good.

But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that HDTV is sitting on our shelf as our own little attempt to drive the economy and make everyone's life richer and fuller.
Since I initiated this thread many moons ago, I have given consideration to the "greed is good" argument. It seems hard to argue that desire for wealth and a comfortable life does not drive the economy and create wealth, which in turn can help the poor. Can the seriously committed Christian, therefore, enjoy a lifestyle of more than the "bare necessities"?

Of course not.

If our mythical Fred wants to fulfill his responsibilities as a Christian, he can certainly be in the "wealth generation" business. He can and should provide goods and services that promote the creation of wealth in our world. What he cannot do, and still be true to Jesus, is to use his income to buy himself an HDTV. Why is this? After all, by purchasing that HDTV he is participating in the growth of the global economy. The $ 5000 he spends on the TV fuels the economy, possibly creating jobs for poor people.

The key question is not whether buying the HDTV supports the economy (an undeniably good thing - I agree that materialism is, to an extent, good). It is whether this is the best way to use the $ 5000 in light of Christ's call to help the "least of these". While I cannot "prove" it, I think it is fairly clear that this is not the best choice. There must be thousands of things that are more likely to benefit the needy than spending the $$$ on a TV. Giving it directly to an aid agency, investing in companies that are working on medical technologies (e.g. AIDS drugs for Africans), giving it to a University scholarship fund for the needy, etc.

I am not promoting a frugal lifestyle for the pleasure of self-denial. I want an HDTV as much as the next guy. I just think that we delude ourselves if we think spending $5000 on an HDTV is the best way to help the sick and starving. I am not against Christians being involved in the creation of wealth. I think we should "make as much as we can, yet give as much as we can".
 
Could Jesus really be any more explicit on the subject than "Its harder for a rich man to enter they eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of heeaven"?

Clearly he thought that wealth and faith were in tremendous conflict.
 
Drew said:
I am not promoting a frugal lifestyle for the pleasure of self-denial. I want an HDTV as much as the next guy. I just think that we delude ourselves if we think spending $5000 on an HDTV is the best way to help the sick and starving. I am not against Christians being involved in the creation of wealth. I think we should "make as much as we can, yet give as much as we can".

You could always buy the HDTV and give it to someone else. Like your wife. :)
 

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