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Bible Study The Straight and narrow now looks curvy like a snake.

Douglas Summers said:
I am not alarmed, I am grieved. The Lord said these things would happen. Do you mean to tell me you do not know of any false teachings or warnings in Scripture? If you do what are they? and if not say so.
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Douglas,

As an example of how serious this situation has reached here in Australia, yesterday (Christmas Day) I was discussing with my 2 Christian grandsons (age 16 and 14) the need in their Baptist youth group to discuss apologetic reasons for defending their faith so they are equipped for objections in the high school and university classrooms and elsewhere on campus.

Both boys and their father (my son) confirmed that of the 15-20 teens in the youth group, there were only 3-4 who have any interest in knowing how to give reasons for their faith. These are those who have been raised in Christian homes where issues of the faith have been discussed openly to help them arrive at a growing and maturing aspect of their faith. So, about 75% of the youth in that youth group have no particular interest in responding to issues of faith. That means that they are suckers for false doctrine (as they have little foundation) and attacks on their faith by secularists. This is of deep concern to me.

Then I got into discussion with the 14-year-old about some of his doubts. Do you know what his #1 concern is? 'How do I know it's true? I can't see God, so how do I know my faith is real?' The discussion that pursued was interesting and challenging.

However, if this teen from a Christian household, who the family speaks about his faith, struggles with some aspects of it, what is going to happen to the 75% of that youth group who don't have Jesus firmly in focus in their lives.

There you have a practical example from my household of the challenges to the faith in a church youth group - 75% of youth who don't care about the faith. It's easy to brush them aside as, 'They are not Christians', and that may be the case. But I'm interested in knowing why that church is not doing something in the youth group to address this lukewarmness by 75% of the group. And it's happening in an evangelical church, not one of the local theologically liberal church.

Oz
 
Douglas Summers said:
Maybe I miss understand your post, but most of the new testament was about faith not works.
Click to expand...
Yet there was no battle over that then.and the tanach required faith.circumcise ye the foreskin of your heart and be ye no more stiffnecked.despite the miracles performed by God in the wilderness the isrealites didn't have faith.save Caleb and joshua
 
OzSpen said:
Douglas,

As an example of how serious this situation has reached here in Australia, yesterday (Christmas Day) I was discussing with my 2 Christian grandsons (age 16 and 14) the need in their Baptist youth group to discuss apologetic reasons for defending their faith so they are equipped for objections in the high school and university classrooms and elsewhere on campus.

Both boys and their father (my son) confirmed that of the 15-20 teens in the youth group, there were only 3-4 who have any interest in knowing how to give reasons for their faith. These are those who have been raised in Christian homes where issues of the faith have been discussed openly to help them arrive at a growing and maturing aspect of their faith. So, about 75% of the youth in that youth group have no particular interest in responding to issues of faith. That means that they are suckers for false doctrine (as they have little foundation) and attacks on their faith by secularists. This is of deep concern to me.

Then I got into discussion with the 14-year-old about some of his doubts. Do you know what his #1 concern is? 'How do I know it's true? I can't see God, so how do I know my faith is real?' The discussion that pursued was interesting and challenging.

However, if this teen from a Christian household, who the family speaks about his faith, struggles with some aspects of it, what is going to happen to the 75% of that youth group who don't have Jesus firmly in focus in their lives.

There you have a practical example from my household of the challenges to the faith in a church youth group - 75% of youth who don't care about the faith. It's easy to brush them aside as, 'They are not Christians', and that may be the case. But I'm interested in knowing why that church is not doing something in the youth group to address this lukewarmness by 75% of the group. And it's happening in an evangelical church, not one of the local theologically liberal church.

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Douglas,

New here. sorry if this doesn't come thru correctly. And am hoping I'll know how to send this off!

I'm wondering how anyone could have any doubts as to what you state! Even if people reading along are younger than we both are, they still might have seen old TV programs or movies.

Secularism has taken over. Christianity is stuck in a little corner and no one seems to be very interested anymore. Songs have changed. Movies have changed. Romance has changed. There is no more romance! 50% divorce rate, disrespect for authority figures. Must I go on? Proof is needed?!

We just need to take a look around. Churches are doing very little. And what they do doesn't even seem to help. The material world is easy to SEE. God is more quiet. And the world is sure making a lot of noise lately.

Just think. Back in the late 50's Elvis was shown from the waist up because he was moving his hips around too much! Have persons here seen any music videos lately??

Wondering
 
jasonc said:
Yet there was no battle over that then.and the tanach required faith.circumcise ye the foreskin of your heart and be ye no more stiffnecked.despite the miracles performed by God in the wilderness the isrealites didn't have faith.save Caleb and joshua
Click to expand...


Am I allowed to do this??

I like your signature line!

Wondering
 
OzSpen said:
Let's suggest a few:
  • Homosexual marriage (1 Cor 6:9-11 ESV; Matt 19:5 ESV)
  • Promiscuous sex - fornication, adultery (1 Cor 6:9-11 ESV);
  • 'I will do what's right for me. There is no such thing as truth. There are no absolute values' (John 17:17 NLT);
  • Jesus was not bodily raised from the dead (John 20:19-29 ESV).
  • There are too many contradictions in the Bible to trust anything it says (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).
  • Freewill Theism (Mal 3:6 NIV);
  • Annihilationism (Rev 20:13-15 NASB);
  • Soul sleep (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).
Why don't you read R Albert Mohler, Jr 2015. We Cannot Be Silent: Speaking Truth to a Culture Redefining Sex, Marriage & the Very Meaning of Right and Wrong. Nashville, Tennessee: Nelson Books.

Oz
Click to expand...
I find it interesting that God instituted marriage. It's a biblical idea from thousands of years ago. Started with Adam and Eve but was definitely around by the "historical" time of Abraham and Sarah.

So how is it that the govt has the right to change what God instituted? It doen't. And, as usual, everything it gets its hands into is ruined. Why? Because the govt is not the absolute authority - God is. And what God instituted He did for a reason. In this case, the propogation of the species, the benefit of family to the bonding of a society, the benefits to children growing up in that society.

I see all this as being torn to shreds. I've lived through it.

Am not familiar with Freewill Theism. If you'd care to explain.

Also, am I going to be advised by email if you DO reply? Or do I just have to check in?

Getting the hang of this...

Wondering
 
wondering said:
I find it interesting that God instituted marriage. It's a biblical idea from thousands of years ago. Started with Adam and Eve but was definitely around by the "historical" time of Abraham and Sarah.

So how is it that the govt has the right to change what God instituted? It doen't. And, as usual, everything it gets its hands into is ruined. Why? Because the govt is not the absolute authority - God is. And what God instituted He did for a reason. In this case, the propogation of the species, the benefit of family to the bonding of a society, the benefits to children growing up in that society.

I see all this as being torn to shreds. I've lived through it.

Am not familiar with Freewill Theism. If you'd care to explain.

Also, am I going to be advised by email if you DO reply? Or do I just have to check in?

Getting the hang of this...

Wondering
Click to expand...
Up to the 1830s in america,there was no licensing of marriages.you can't find a license for George and martha washington.the churches did that and also birth records and death.the idea of a license was to stop blacks and whites from marrying.nothing godly .in europa it wasn't until the 1600s that a license was issued
 
While I agree with a lot of this, I too, Douglas, wish you would state some of the specific things you are writing about here. It's not that we necessarily don't agree with you (at least not that I've seen in our member's responses so far) but that it's just hard to discuss such an open ended subject that, without you giving us more detail on specific examples of things you have in mind, I'm sure will just turn into a free-for-all of everyone posting their pet peeves with little ever being accomplished. Why not name one or two of the things you consider the most important so we can discuss them and maybe even help some people find ways to correct their own ideas if indeed they find themselves in error. And since this is a "Bible Study" forum, how about actually posting some specific Bible passages that you feel speak to a couple of the things you have in mind so we can actually study them (rather than just referring people to read the entire old and new Testament and decide for themselves! Help us out a bit here!) Then when those things have been discussed, maybe move onto one or two more specifics... I think that could be more beneficial.

See, you may consider that new song that compares the love of Jesus to a "sloppy wet kiss" to be unacceptable in a worship service, but you may agree with the doctrine of transubstantiation. (Just for a hypothetical example, of course...) So if I begin to argue in support of transubstantiation as opposed to the idea of the communion bread and wine being symbolic only, I'm effectively just preaching to the choir with no way of knowing I'm wasting my time doing this! :yes
 
wondering said:
I find it interesting that God instituted marriage. It's a biblical idea from thousands of years ago. Started with Adam and Eve but was definitely around by the "historical" time of Abraham and Sarah.

So how is it that the govt has the right to change what God instituted? It doen't. And, as usual, everything it gets its hands into is ruined. Why? Because the govt is not the absolute authority - God is. And what God instituted He did for a reason. In this case, the propogation of the species, the benefit of family to the bonding of a society, the benefits to children growing up in that society.

I see all this as being torn to shreds. I've lived through it.

Am not familiar with Freewill Theism. If you'd care to explain.

Also, am I going to be advised by email if you DO reply? Or do I just have to check in?

Getting the hang of this...

Wondering
Click to expand...

Wondering,

Welcome to the forum.

As for Freewill Theism, its other name is Open Theism. Here is a link to an article, 'A Critique of Open Theism' by James Rochford. Some of the key aspects of this theology deny the sovereignty of God and make God to be a changing God. Some of the leading exponents of this false theology are the late Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, John Sanders, William Hasker, David Basinger, et al.

It emerged in about the 1980s.

Here is a link to Albert Mohler's critique of Open Theism.

Oz
 
This is an example of Open Theism in action. Gregory Boyd wrote, 'If God does not foreknow future free actions, it is not because his knowledge of the future is in any sense incomplete. It’s because there is, in this view, nothing definite there for God to know!' (Boyd 2000:16).

What does Scripture state about God's foreknowledge (omniscience)?

Psalm 139:1-4 (NIV) states:

1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

There are many other verses we could use to counteract Open Theism (the theory of the openness of God).

This is an example of how the straight and narrow theology has become the curvy theology of false teaching.

Oz

Works consulted
Boyd, G A 2000. God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books.
 
OzSpen said:
Douglas,

As an example of how serious this situation has reached here in Australia, yesterday (Christmas Day) I was discussing with my 2 Christian grandsons (age 16 and 14) the need in their Baptist youth group to discuss apologetic reasons for defending their faith so they are equipped for objections in the high school and university classrooms and elsewhere on campus.

Both boys and their father (my son) confirmed that of the 15-20 teens in the youth group, there were only 3-4 who have any interest in knowing how to give reasons for their faith. These are those who have been raised in Christian homes where issues of the faith have been discussed openly to help them arrive at a growing and maturing aspect of their faith. So, about 75% of the youth in that youth group have no particular interest in responding to issues of faith. That means that they are suckers for false doctrine (as they have little foundation) and attacks on their faith by secularists. This is of deep concern to me.

Then I got into discussion with the 14-year-old about some of his doubts. Do you know what his #1 concern is? 'How do I know it's true? I can't see God, so how do I know my faith is real?' The discussion that pursued was interesting and challenging.

However, if this teen from a Christian household, who the family speaks about his faith, struggles with some aspects of it, what is going to happen to the 75% of that youth group who don't have Jesus firmly in focus in their lives.

There you have a practical example from my household of the challenges to the faith in a church youth group - 75% of youth who don't care about the faith. It's easy to brush them aside as, 'They are not Christians', and that may be the case. But I'm interested in knowing why that church is not doing something in the youth group to address this lukewarmness by 75% of the group. And it's happening in an evangelical church, not one of the local theologically liberal church.

Oz
Click to expand...
How great it would be to have real Spirit filled believers that are grounded in the word to stand against the propaganda that is sown in the so called academia of higher learning. One of the problems in today's churches is they preach a continued same message to those that have accepted God's grace in Jesus Christ. That sermon is, you need Jesus Christ to be saved. The message in itself is not wrong, but it is the wrong message to those already saved. Even the saved, sometimes do not even know what they are saved from (The Judgement and wrath of God that is coming upon all the disobedient and enemies of the Cross of Christ).
A sermon must be two fold in a mature church. The Cross of Christ and the reason for it. Then to the mature, Each Doctrine, why it is so, about gifts of the Holy Spirit, and encouragement and support and the progress out in the field of the lost. Also the witnessing of those out in the field to the congregation and progress made.

As far as someone believing in a God they can not see, Have them look at creation and study the many marvels that occur in nature. In the beginning, God walked with man, but after seeing all that God created and the instruction on how to maintain a Godly environment, of whom they did not obey or believe, It pleased God to save man by faith. I raised my Children in the Lord by the Spirit of the Lord , the Scriptures, and examples of His fellowship through the trials we went through growing up. The visible church had failed them in example and teaching and love. As a matter of fact, the things that happened in that church we went to would have, caused many new converts to be come discouraged. I pray that your teaching of your family of Christ purpose in us is very profitable in them being grounded in the faith..

In Christ
Douglas Summers
 
wondering said:
Hi Douglas,

New here. sorry if this doesn't come thru correctly. And am hoping I'll know how to send this off!

I'm wondering how anyone could have any doubts as to what you state! Even if people reading along are younger than we both are, they still might have seen old TV programs or movies.

Secularism has taken over. Christianity is stuck in a little corner and no one seems to be very interested anymore. Songs have changed. Movies have changed. Romance has changed. There is no more romance! 50% divorce rate, disrespect for authority figures. Must I go on? Proof is needed?!

We just need to take a look around. Churches are doing very little. And what they do doesn't even seem to help. The material world is easy to SEE. God is more quiet. And the world is sure making a lot of noise lately.

Just think. Back in the late 50's Elvis was shown from the waist up because he was moving his hips around too much! Have persons here seen any music videos lately??

Wondering
Click to expand...
Hi Wondering, I was beginning to think I was the only one who noticed how far things have fallen. That is why I say, The younger generation has not seen a people of God in Jesus Christ. I keep thinking of how the president says he is a Christian, but promotes homosexuality, homosexual same sex marriage, abortion, and is a habitual liar. Yet, many so called Christians voted for him and defend him as a christian?
 
OzSpen said:
Wondering,

Welcome to the forum.

As for Freewill Theism, its other name is Open Theism. Here is a link to an article, 'A Critique of Open Theism' by James Rochford. Some of the key aspects of this theology deny the sovereignty of God and make God to be a changing God. Some of the leading exponents of this false theology are the late Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, John Sanders, William Hasker, David Basinger, et al.

It emerged in about the 1980s.

Here is a link to Albert Mohler's critique of Open Theism.

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Oz

I read a little of the open theism link.

I don't agree with it. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God. This reminds me of the problem of reconciling man's free will with the Providence of God. IOW, nothing happens unless God allows it. Even if it's evil. I've come to accept evil and I don't think about it too much. Mainly because there's no answer to evil. Every 10 years or so I feel like I've figured it out. Then I think of a reason why it doesn't work. So I've stopped thinking about it.

I had read When Bad Things Happen to Good People many years ago while I was still seeking the answer. Of course, the author had no real answer (a Rabbi). The only concept that makes any sense to me now is that there are two gods of equal power, but that's heretical so we won't go there.

If God knows the future, is He creating it? I don't think so - but this is a bit too philosophical for me. If God knows I'm going to have pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, that doesn't mean I couldn't have toast. He just KNEW I'd pick pancakes. Is it this simple?? Probably not.

We do try very hard to figure out God. I don't think we could. If we could He wouldn't be God!

Jeremiah 1:4-5
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, 5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Douglas is right, we're headed down a curvy road. In the last days many false prophets will fool even the believers. Mathew 24.

Wondering
 
Douglas Summers said:
Hi Wondering, I was beginning to think I was the only one who noticed how far things have fallen. That is why I say, The younger generation has not seen a people of God in Jesus Christ. I keep thinking of how the president says he is a Christian, but promotes homosexuality, homosexual same sex marriage, abortion, and is a habitual liar. Yet, many so called Christians voted for him and defend him as a christian?
Click to expand...
Douglas,

Saying your Christian is easy. What does it mean? Christians should be different from the rest. Jehovah Witnesses act like Christians and they aren't even christian! Here are some examples of what you (and I ) are talking about:
Dressing modestly, speaking kindly, treating others with respect, honoring our families - doing all for the glory to be given to God. If Christians just act like everybody else, what's the difference? I think we're supposed to be transformed, no? And about voting. I think the current pres. won because (I think) about 40% of evangelical christians did not vote because they didn't like either candidate - the other one was Romney - not right enough, so we got what we have.

Each generation has nothing to compare to. That's why the road winds so much. Plus, we've come up with situational ethics. No objective morality. Those are some nice big curves! - What I think must be right, who's to say it isn't?- No God, no objective morality.

But what made God become so small?

Wondering
 
As people draw away from Godly principles things become like this..

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
wondering said:
Douglas,

Saying your Christian is easy. What does it mean? Christians should be different from the rest. Jehovah Witnesses act like Christians and they aren't even christian! Here are some examples of what you (and I ) are talking about:
Dressing modestly, speaking kindly, treating others with respect, honoring our families - doing all for the glory to be given to God. If Christians just act like everybody else, what's the difference? I think we're supposed to be transformed, no? And about voting. I think the current pres. won because (I think) about 40% of evangelical christians did not vote because they didn't like either candidate - the other one was Romney - not right enough, so we got what we have.

Each generation has nothing to compare to. That's why the road winds so much. Plus, we've come up with situational ethics. No objective morality. Those are some nice big curves! - What I think must be right, who's to say it isn't?- No God, no objective morality.

But what made God become so small?

Wondering
Click to expand...
God became small when pastors and priest usurped His authority. Instead of an equal brotherhood in Christ as Son's of God (our Father in Heaven) and a kingdom of priest and kings to rule with Christ. Men have kicked Christ out of the Church and have taken over His authority. (Rev. 3: 20-22) He stands outside knocking on the door. Not asking us to come out, but if He can come in.
 
Douglas Summers said:
How great it would be to have real Spirit filled believers that are grounded in the word to stand against the propaganda that is sown in the so called academia of higher learning. One of the problems in today's churches is they preach a continued same message to those that have accepted God's grace in Jesus Christ. That sermon is, you need Jesus Christ to be saved. The message in itself is not wrong, but it is the wrong message to those already saved. Even the saved, sometimes do not even know what they are saved from (The Judgement and wrath of God that is coming upon all the disobedient and enemies of the Cross of Christ).
A sermon must be two fold in a mature church. The Cross of Christ and the reason for it. Then to the mature, Each Doctrine, why it is so, about gifts of the Holy Spirit, and encouragement and support and the progress out in the field of the lost. Also the witnessing of those out in the field to the congregation and progress made.

As far as someone believing in a God they can not see, Have them look at creation and study the many marvels that occur in nature. In the beginning, God walked with man, but after seeing all that God created and the instruction on how to maintain a Godly environment, of whom they did not obey or believe, It pleased God to save man by faith. I raised my Children in the Lord by the Spirit of the Lord , the Scriptures, and examples of His fellowship through the trials we went through growing up. The visible church had failed them in example and teaching and love. As a matter of fact, the things that happened in that church we went to would have, caused many new converts to be come discouraged. I pray that your teaching of your family of Christ purpose in us is very profitable in them being grounded in the faith..

In Christ
Douglas Summers
Click to expand...

I don't run into that kind of problem when I preach as I believe that 'preach the Word' (2 Tim 4:2 ESV) means just that. It is my responsibility to preach my way through books of the Bible. That means I have to deal with a diversity of topics for Christians - theology, apologetics and contemporary issues. I'm an expository preacher. I've found Bryan Chapell's text, Christ-Centered Preaching (Baker Academic 2005) to be the best for helping preachers prepare expository messages that deal with the fallen condition of humanity with preaching from the text.

Oz
 
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