The Tea Party

[jasoncran]

and and had a wife who worked and with your income it totaled that. it wouldnt happend that easily.
If I had my way, college wouldn't break the bank for any families. In France, it only costs about 5,000 USD, maximum, for a masters education. That is half the price a semester costs my parents in the United States. Then again, France has a system where the wealthy support the poor.

french students usually dont have jobs as they have the wonderful two yr probie law and thus what good is a degree when you cant work in it.

the business there hire immigrants who will work for less and they can fire them if they are unproductive

one cant have it all in this life despite what some will say.

and i wonder why my cousin who is a french national born from an american immigrant is in savannah,ga for her education and not in france.

she just graduated from high school.

in nj is expensive for the colleges but not in florida. we are far cheaper. the state system is 60.00 bucks a credit hour.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

uh, not so fast, i dont want govt run healthcare
been there already, if we cant keep the promises to me a vet and my fellow vets how can we run the entire system?

and would you want ot wait yrs for the simple surgeries ie hip, shoulder that are non life threatening?

drew has told me that it takes a two yr wait for those in canada to get a shoulder rotator cuff fixed. so then if i did that then the govt would also have to pay me for lost wages not mention wean me off the opiods. when even now i would get the surgery done if needed in a quarter of that time.

I am not a fan of the Canadian health system.

and it was the Govt telling the banks to make loans to those who cant afford them in part that cause this mess. the banks were forced into that as they knew what would happen.

That is a myth. The sub-prime loans under the CRA were more secure and less likely to default than those made by private brokerage firms not under the CRA. If you can show me hard statistical data that proves CRA loans were more risky than non-CRA loans, I would be more than glad to look it over.

strange that even now bernie mae and freddie mac arent being reformed.

this was a long time coming. if the soviets were so good at runing things why then did we have to send them grain?

surely those socialists knew how to run things over there

Really, mate? You do realise that every socialist party in Europe is anti-Soviet and anti-Communist, don't you? With Mike, I know he is just joking, but I get the impression you are serious. Please do not link my beliefs with those of Marxist-Leninists. Modern-day socialists are no more Communists than modern-day conservatives are Fascists.

so it wasnt the guy who made 20k a yr and wanted a 400000 usd house fault for buying a home? or the guy who kept refying hoping the market would go up..
were these totally inocent
and i bought my house in 2007 when it was high, and i planned for the payments to go as high as i pay now. i reasarched what i was doing. and sought advise from co-workers and my accountant.

of course it was the banks in part along with govt, and the idiots that thought that they could afford a mansion on paupers pay.

The Community Reinvestment Act has been in place for 30+ years without any major collapses, so nice try mate, but it won't fly. The reason we had this economic collapse is that what mortgage brokers did made perfect sense in a laissez-faire, free market. Mortgage originators sold mortgages to anybody, regardless of ability to pay, because they knew they could sell the mortgages off as debt-securities in the secondary mortgage market. And then the financial wizards came up with a nice little free-market trick called Collateralised-debt obligations, to mask the risk involved in buying these debt-securities. Those who originated the mortgages did exactly what the free-market demands. They had every incentive in the world to act as they did. It was perfectly logical.

I find it odd that Christians are so adamant about running an economy based solely on greed. I suggest reading Front Porch Republic. It is a traditional conservative magazine. It is so much better than the garbage conservative liberals spew forth daily. In fact, I find myself agreeing with Traditional Conservatives more than I agree with liberals.

 

[Mike]

I do not want ordinary Americans to work more or be taxed more. I simply want the rich to pay more in taxes. And, the French are more productive per work hour than we are. On average the productivity of a French worker is 56.6 USD compared with 49.6 USD for American workers. They may take more vacation time, but that is a cultural meme. They are not working less because of the evil 40 per cent top marginal tax rate.

Why are you bent on the wealthy paying more taxes proportionally??? Why!!?? I can't get inside the envious mind that would believe they deserve to pay a greater percentage of their income? There is nothing fair about that system, and anything but a flat tax rate is decidedly vindictive to certain people just because of success they have enjoyed. We'll never understand each other, because I'll never understand that envy.

So you are basically argueing that there are no liberal old people? Once again, managing a country is not the same as managing a household. Comparing the idea of the laissez-faire economic system to a balanced household budget holds no water. It is not an analogous comparison. It just sounds good. And I am not a liberal, I am a social democrat. I staunchly reject the liberal tradition, but the laissez-faire economic system is a liberal idea. Ronald Regan was a conservative liberal.

I am not envious or resentful. I live in a middle-class family and I am getting all of my college tuition paid for by my parents.

Yes, Red. That's exactly what I said... "There are no liberal old people." Those are my exact words! In drawing this bizarre conclusion from Churchill's quote and my comment, you neglected the entire premise. But thank you for helping to support it with your comment.

So Gendou's mom and dad pay for his college. Red has nothing to worry about except gathering enough change to do the laundry. Red doesn't work, because Red goes to school on his parents' tab for a living. Red isn't concerned with household finance, because Red has an endowment from his mom and dad to drag out college and be a professional student.

I don't expect you to understand why hard earned money should not be thrown in a bag for the rest of society to share, because you don't understand the concept... yet. That was the point. Thank you for your contribution!!

When you are young and under mom and dad's umbrella, it's easy to enjoy their fruits and think, "This should be a perfect world where everyone can have everything they want, and then they'll be happy, and it won't effect me, because mom and dad are taking care of that, and this is very reasonable, and there's no reason this won't work, and I need a new pair of ripped up jeans and just stop all the worlds problems!!!

The thing is, I was there. My parents paid for my school, and my first employer out of college paid for my MBA. I was liberal just like you, but I don't ever recall being as certain of my brilliance as you are. I always felt I had a lot to learn, and I'm happy I felt that way.

I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable with the fact that the lower 80 per cent of Americans only hold 15 per cent of the wealth.

You are sooo envious! :yes Color you red, and color you envious. :yes And how much of our taxes are paid by the wealthiest top 2%?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Here I am to show a very kindergarten esque example of how economics works and how the French, Scandinavians, and Canadians were able to weather the latest global economic crisis.


Or better yet, and Orwell example.

A country is built like a house, it needs a foundation for its base, walls for its support, and a roof to keep everything safe inside.

The lower class in the united States is the base. Everything comes from the lower class and that is where the majority of our working class is. These are the people who build roads, flip our burgers, work on dairy farms, etc. These people are also our poor. This group keeps the basics of our society going. We need this base and it needs to stay solid to hold up the next level.

The middle class is the class that is comfortable enough to be our consumer base. This group supports the upper class by buying products, creating content, teaching, being doctors, lawyers, politicians, artists, etc. These people drive our economy.

Now we have the upper class/ the rich class. These people are the investors, bankers, businessmen/ women, and entertainers. These people create the product and keep the money flowing. Without these people there would be no house. The house would be destroyed by outside forces.

Now, to make sure that each level stays strong, we have regulations. Such as a minimum wage, health benefits, insurance, trade laws, taxes, and social programs.

The social programs make sure that our base remains strong and stable. Health care, Food Stamps, social security, unemployment, and working transportation. These programs keep all the needs of the base intact for emergencies and to keep the next level stable.

Taxes, work regulations, and Health benefits is the base of the wall/ middle class. This group needs stability in order to support the roof.

Now, the reason many support higher taxes for the rich, is because their purpose is to protect the base and walls. This dosen't mean all their money should go to the middle and lower, but a chunk should.

This naturally brings out a territorial anger in us though. The idea that the rich should pay for someone else makes no sense until you realize that if it wasn't for everyone else there would be no rich.

If the base can't find access to food or health care, it dies and their goes the foundation. If the middle class is caused to go unstable, then there is nothing to support the upper class. The roof is usually the most stable column in economics.


Dose everyone understand? I know people will bring up other points, and please do. We need to discuss this.

 

[Mike]

Here I am to show a very kindergarten esque example of how economics works ...

I stopped reading after this engaging opening line. There's another quote worth mentioning, (again paraphrasing) "When I was 20, I thought I knew everything. Now that I'm 30, I realize I don't know anything."

I can't explain why that quote comes to mind, but it does.

 

[jasoncran]

mike i used to think that i knew it all and my old man was a fool at ripe old age of 18. it stayed that way till about 26. as i got older. i learned that i dont know as much as my dad. I learned from his mistakes and also wished i listened more to him.

my grandpa was a liberal to death , he voted pro-democrat all the time. yet what mike said is the truth. you see he told me son you got live under your dad's roof forever, time to grow up and earn you way to a house, and get an education.

he told me i was stupid for not staying active duty. looking back, i wish i did. i would retire in less then a year, and would make at least 3k a month.

looking at the dems in the 60's and 50's there arent the same party of today.

that's why i will say that i would vote for truman, and even fdr.(even though he was very progressive). both knew how to deal with the enemies at hand. they would inspire me to fight hard for my country, cause one of the two have done just that.

truman served in ww1.I simply cant see that in obama, clinton(hillary and bill) or al gore.

 

[jasoncran]

I am not a fan of the Canadian health system.



That is a myth. The sub-prime loans under the CRA were more secure and less likely to default than those made by private brokerage firms not under the CRA. If you can show me hard statistical data that proves CRA loans were more risky than non-CRA loans, I would be more than glad to look it over.



Really, mate? You do realise that every socialist party in Europe is anti-Soviet and anti-Communist, don't you? With Mike, I know he is just joking, but I get the impression you are serious. Please do not link my beliefs with those of Marxist-Leninists. Modern-day socialists are no more Communists than modern-day conservatives are Fascists.




The Community Reinvestment Act has been in place for 30+ years without any major collapses, so nice try mate, but it won't fly. The reason we had this economic collapse is that what mortgage brokers did made perfect sense in a laissez-faire, free market. Mortgage originators sold mortgages to anybody, regardless of ability to pay, because they knew they could sell the mortgages off as debt-securities in the secondary mortgage market. And then the financial wizards came up with a nice little free-market trick called Collateralised-debt obligations, to mask the risk involved in buying these debt-securities. Those who originated the mortgages did exactly what the free-market demands. They had every incentive in the world to act as they did. It was perfectly logical.

I find it odd that Christians are so adamant about running an economy based solely on greed. I suggest reading Front Porch Republic. It is a traditional conservative magazine. It is so much better than the garbage conservative liberals spew forth daily. In fact, I find myself agreeing with Traditional Conservatives more than I agree with liberals.

who says it has to be greed? mike and i have repeatedly said we want to assist the poor. not via govt programs

uh, did the banks force them to sign the line and not educate themselves.
so the govt knows best.

i did just that, it aint hard to learn about mortage, most banks will educate you. chase(j.p.morgan) even sent me a letter showing how to pay off my mortage early.

i pay 250.00 usd extra on principal so that i wont have pay the full term of thirty yrs. i reduced it to almost half that by doing this. all without refinancing.

so its the business fault. not the consumer. its out there kindly educate yourself.i did. i wanted ensure i COULD pay for it it got hard , as it is now.

sounds like a now brainer.

the act is what made the banks give loans to questionable persons. who have bad credit.

 

[jasoncran]

no, actually i do think that , heres why

Rush Limbaugh does not have a clue what he is talking about. I simply love how he praised Hawaii's health care, before he knew that it was government universal health care. All he does is try to scare people away from progressive economics. We have seen laissez-faire economics fail time and time again, yet he keeps spouting them like gospel. I would love to debate him on economics, because unlike him, I actually read and study what is going on, instead of just blaming the collapse on the Government, because they are evil and all private business is good; never mind what God said about money and the root of all evil.


and btw the love of money is the root of evil. kindly read the verse.


so govt control like france the most socialist nation in the eu is ok? you cant run a business there without govt heavy handiness.

i wonder, i my family in france would oblige, the american immigrant i mentioned teaches in frances, at a business school.

perhaps i will ask him somethings.

 

[jasoncran]

from wikipedia as i did a search on subprime market crash

Subprime borrowers typically have weakened credit histories and reduced repayment capacity. Subprime loans have a higher risk of default than loans to prime borrowers.[15] If a borrower is delinquent in making timely mortgage payments to the loan servicer (a bank or other financial firm), the lender may take possession of the property, in a process called foreclosure.

so how could it be safe? my credit at the time of purchase was like this, but i used the fha loan. i couldnt get a va loan. but it wasnt subprime at all, as one doesnt need credit for the fha deal.you cant owe back taxes nor have a recent bankruptcy within several yrs.

however, my income was sufficient as its was even higher then now.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I stopped reading after this engaging opening line. There's another quote worth mentioning, (again paraphrasing) "When I was 20, I thought I knew everything. Now that I'm 30, I realize I don't know anything."

I can't explain why that quote comes to mind, but it does.

Then you missed the point entirely. I'm not being as polite anymore because after the comments made to me, why bother?

You are a mod, you should be adult enough to actually read an argument and recognize it.

Its also hilarious that you give a quote about not knowing everything, when my post was in no way about me knowing everything. That's the assumption I'll go off of since its the only scenario that makes sense.

Maybe if I called Gen a commie, you would have red more. Maybe you would understand the position of someone who is for higher taxes. Oh well, keep thinking that everyone like us are just greedy. Knowledge is just that pesky bit of information that gets in your way, by the way.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Why are you bent on the wealthy paying more taxes proportionally??? Why!!?? I can't get inside the envious mind that would believe they deserve to pay a greater percentage of their income? There is nothing fair about that system, and anything but a flat tax rate is decidedly vindictive to certain people just because of success they have enjoyed. We'll never understand each other, because I'll never understand that envy.

Those with the broadest shoulders should carry the heaviest burden. I am a classicalist, in the sense of Plato and Aristotle. We are a community, not a collection of individuals living in a wilderness. We cannot gain any success in this world without someone else being there to help us along. The self-made man is a myth. Half of us could not even drive to work without using the roads build by the working class. I will never understand that love of money, that rich people are so adamant in holding on to it.

Yes, Red. That's exactly what I said... "There are no liberal old people." Those are my exact words! In drawing this bizarre conclusion from Churchill's quote and my comment, you neglected the entire premise. But thank you for helping to support it with your comment.

It was hyperbole Mr. Locke. :p

So Gendou's mom and dad pay for his college. Red has nothing to worry about except gathering enough change to do the laundry. Red doesn't work, because Red goes to school on his parents' tab for a living. Red isn't concerned with household finance, because Red has an endowment from his mom and dad to drag out college and be a professional student.

I don't expect you to understand why hard earned money should not be thrown in a bag for the rest of society to share, because you don't understand the concept... yet. That was the point. Thank you for your contribution!!

When you are young and under mom and dad's umbrella, it's easy to enjoy their fruits and think, "This should be a perfect world where everyone can have everything they want, and then they'll be happy, and it won't effect me, because mom and dad are taking care of that, and this is very reasonable, and there's no reason this won't work, and I need a new pair of ripped up jeans and just stop all the worlds problems!!!

The thing is, I was there. My parents paid for my school, and my first employer out of college paid for my MBA. I was liberal just like you, but I don't ever recall being as certain of my brilliance as you are. I always felt I had a lot to learn, and I'm happy I felt that way. [/B]

We arrive at the crux of the issue, my friend. In a couple of years, I will be heading off for my Ph.D program (hopefully, Princeton) and upon receiving my doctorate, I will have a massive competitive advantage in the job market. I don't necessarily deserve to be making any more money than the average working class man or woman. The reason I am getting to this point, is not because I am specially deserving, but because my parents have the money and I will benefit from that. If I end up making an above average salary, I do not mind paying above average taxes.

You are sooo envious! :yes Color you red, and color you envious. :yes And how much of our taxes are paid by the wealthiest top 2%?

Well, according to Rush Limbaugh the top 5 per cent of wage earners pay 53.25 per cent of income tax. And correlating that with the great article Wealth, Income, and Power, written my G. William Domhoff, the top 5 per cent controls 62 per cent of the wealth.

 

[Mike]

Then you missed the point entirely. I'm not being as polite anymore because after the comments made to me, why bother?

You are a mod, you should be adult enough to actually read an argument and recognize it.

Its also hilarious that you give a quote about not knowing everything, when my post was in no way about me knowing everything. That's the assumption I'll go off of since its the only scenario that makes sense.

Maybe if I called Gen a commie, you would have red more. Maybe you would understand the position of someone who is for higher taxes. Oh well, keep thinking that everyone like us are just greedy. Knowledge is just that pesky bit of information that gets in your way, by the way.

Honestly lance, I was so engaged with Red, I looked right past the name and thought it was him.

Irregardless. You start off a post with "Let me talk to you like you're a 5-year-old..." Nope! I'm out. And I'm not going back to read whatever you wrote after that either.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Honestly lance, I was so engaged with Red, I looked right past the name and thought it was him.

Irregardless. You start off a post with "Let me talk to you like you're a 5-year-old..." Nope! I'm out. And I'm not going back to read whatever you wrote after that either.

Pride goath before the fall.

Screen capped. Just another point showing that this forum is intellectually dishonest and wants everything handed to them.

I give you an argument and you act like a five year old. Oh well, I guess that's what I should expect from this forum.

 

[Mike]

Those with the broadest shoulders should carry the heaviest burden.

They should, but does government need to dictate it? They should be compelled to help, but they shouldn't be forced to any more than anyone else in proportion. Why does proportional obligation give you such a problem?

I am a classicalist, in the sense of Plato and Aristotle. [

No, you're a "classist". You have class envy.

We are a community, not a collection of individuals living in a wilderness. We cannot gain any success in this world without someone else being there to help us along. The self-made man is a myth. Half of us could not even drive to work without using the roads build by the working class.

So, does this work in reverse? If we're a community, what happens to those who are able, but not willing, to work in your little Utopian world? I'm not saying we shouldn't feel a sense of obligation. There should, but should they be forced? You seem to think so. What other areas should citizens be forced to contribute? Do we force them to provide food and lodging; share their houses for others? This is their private property, but so is their money. Should we force them to volunteer community service hours? Conservatives consistently give more to charity than liberals. It's ironic that the ones who want to force people to pay into the system, are less likely to when it's their decision.

I will never understand that love of money, that rich people are so adamant in holding on to it.

I'll never understand the envy and obsession with it. I'm grateful for what I have. I'm not looking at others with disgust because I don't have it. I can be focused on what I have without dwelling on what I don't.

It was hyperbole Mr. Locke. :p

That wasn't hyperbolic at all. It was just responding out of context and with irrelevance.

We arrive at the crux of the issue, my friend. In a couple of years, I will be heading off for my Ph.D program (hopefully, Princeton) and upon receiving my doctorate...

Nice subtlety in your self-stroking. Fantastic. More years of having a road paved by mom and dad for you to live in a make-believe world. Being a professional student has it's privileges! One of which is, you don't have to live in reality.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Nice subtlety in your self-stroking. Fantastic. More years of having a road paved by mom and dad for you to live in a make-believe world. Being a professional student has it's privileges! One of which is, you don't have to live in reality.

You do realise that you have to work for a Ph.D don't you? You make money by either working as a teaching or research assistant, so you can pay off the cost of tuition. There is a dangerous trend among conservatives in which education and higher learning is considered a Scarlett letter and somehow not a real job. I guess they have to denigrate academics, since most social scientists shun conservatism as unrealistic; except, when most economists support a free-market system, then they are brilliant men and women and worth listening to.

I'll let you have the last word.

 

[jasoncran]

what are you majoring gendou?

are you willing to pay volutarily 50% of your income, since a man with a masters or phd should be making 100k plus?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

what are you majoring gendou?

are you willing to pay volutarily 50% of your income, since a man with a masters or phd should be making 100k plus?

I am a Political Science and Communication double major. Not quite sure what I am going to try to do a Ph.D in. Either political economy or sociology, most likely.

I don't want to argue anymore, but I don't mind answering some questions. Let me calculate what my taxes would be if I made, let's say 120,000 USD:

Property Tax: 10,000 USD (Let's assume I have a pretty big house for my adopted daughter :D)
State Income tax: 4,242 USD
Federal Income Tax: 27,321.82 USD
FICA: 8,361.60 USD

Aggregate: 49,925.42 USD (41 per cent)
Left: 70074.58 USD

I am sure I left out some extra taxes, so help me figure them out, mates. :p

 

[jasoncran]

if you paid 10k usd in taxes for property. you would be living in million dollar home. my house when the rates where high and it was appraised at 170k would be a third of that.

i never paid that, homestead exemption.

lets see i have millionaires in my county i will look them up and what they paid. in fact i will john walsh.

TOWN OF IND RIV SHORES 1.4105 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $2,030.22
FLORIDA INLAND NAVIG 0.0345 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $50.31
COUNTY GENERAL FUND 3.0892 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $4,504.61
HOSPITAL DISTRICT 0.9386 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $1,381.04
MOSQUITO CONTROL 0.2650 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $352.44
LAND ACQUISITION BND 0.0681 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $105.72
SCHOOL BOND 0.3300 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $437.45
SCHOOL LOCAL
CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT 1.5000 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $1,968.37
LOCAL EFFORT 0.7480 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $981.56
CRITICAL OPERATING 0.2500 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $328.06
SCHOOL - STATE LAW 5.4220 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $7,360.89
ST JOHNS RIVER WATER 0.4158 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $606.31
LAND ACQUISITION BND 04 0.3406 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $459.91

Total Millage 14.8123 Total Taxes $20,566.89

note this is a search and i'm not sure that this is walsh's property but you get the amount that 1.4 mil house would pay.

the second collumn is the assesed value.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

if you paid 10k usd in taxes for property. you would be living in million dollar home. my house when the rates where high and it was appraised at 170k would be a third of that.

i never paid that, homestead exemption.

lets see i have millionaires in my county i will look them up and what they paid. in fact i will john walsh.

TOWN OF IND RIV SHORES 1.4105 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $2,030.22
FLORIDA INLAND NAVIG 0.0345 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $50.31
COUNTY GENERAL FUND 3.0892 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $4,504.61
HOSPITAL DISTRICT 0.9386 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $1,381.04
MOSQUITO CONTROL 0.2650 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $352.44
LAND ACQUISITION BND 0.0681 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $105.72
SCHOOL BOND 0.3300 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $437.45
SCHOOL LOCAL
CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT 1.5000 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $1,968.37
LOCAL EFFORT 0.7480 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $981.56
CRITICAL OPERATING 0.2500 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $328.06
SCHOOL - STATE LAW 5.4220 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $7,360.89
ST JOHNS RIVER WATER 0.4158 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $606.31
LAND ACQUISITION BND 04 0.3406 1,458,180 0 $1,458,180 $459.91

Total Millage 14.8123 Total Taxes $20,566.89

note this is a search and i'm not sure that this is walsh's property but you get the amount that 1.4 mil house would pay.

the second collumn is the assesed value.

Which state are you from, though? I live in New Jersey and our property taxes are sick, mate. :p

 

[jasoncran]

Florida, that house has no homestead exemptions and is a 1.4 million dollar home.

the city that is in is called indian river shores. a wealthy community. i live in the mainland, that house is on the barrier island.

google that city indian river shores, fl. and you will see.

my property taxes this year are a whopping 560 bucks.