Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Theology of Self Examination, testing to see whether one is "in the faith"

Alfred, so long as you believe the gifts have ceased, what proof do you think you are going to receive? You know what proof Peter received when he started sinking? Proof that with unbelief comes "proof" that one cannot operate in the supernatural.

Be prepared to keep sinking, cuz that's the only thing you can apparently believe for.

Gotta go. God bless.
I'm soaring in Christ, not sinking.

When volunteers line up to be in Christ's army, I will be first in line:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. (Ps. 110:3 NKJ)

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(Rev. 19:11-14 NKJ)
 
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; (Jn. 14:6-7 NKJ)


I wasn't saved until I called out to God in the Name of Jesus, only then did He answer me.

My conversion to Christ happened over 40 years ago, in San Pedro California. I was shipping out waiting on a ship.

I was thinking about becoming a Jehovah's Witness, until I read Acts 13:2 and realized God the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal active force. He uses personal pronouns "I" and "Me", which an impersonal active force would not do:

As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: "Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have them.-Acts 13:2 New World Translation

I was devastated. I felt totally alone, "if the Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's people, who are?"

I cried out in prayer to Jehovah, "please help me, I beg you! I can't see who your people are!". I was absolutely devastated, went about as if in a stupor. But Jehovah would not answer me.

One day a Baptist Radio minister was urging listeners to call in and confess "Jesus Christ is LORD" and that God "raised Him from the dead" publicly (Mat. 10:32) and you will be saved. "God does not lie," and He promised:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom. 10:9 KJV)

I rushed to the public phone in the lobby of the Amory Hotel. A few of my fellow sailors sat there socializing, they would overhear every word I said on the phone!" Then a thought appeared: "You don't want to embarrass yourself in front of them! You'll be a laughingstock!" I drove the thought away thinking: "I want Jesus to be my LORD more than life itself!"

The Radio minister asked "do you confess Jesus Christ is LORD!" "Yes, I confess Jesus Christ is LORD!" "Do you believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead?" "Yes, I believe God raised Him from the dead!"

"Then you are saved, for God cannot lie and in Romans 10: 9-11 He says:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom. 10:9-11 KJV)


I thanked him profusely and went to my room, stunned. As I was pondering these things I was "baptized in the Holy Spirit!"

God the Holy Spirit fell upon me like a warm wind, filling my soul regenerating it. The washing of regeneration (Tit. 3:5) renewed my spirit (Rom. 8:16), not my flesh body or brain (Rom. 7:18). My soul, the "ghost operating the machine" became a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). God breathed into my soul the "breath of lives" and the filling gave rise to a "new creature" (Gen. 2:7; 2 Cor. 5:17), risen from the dead in Christ Jesus my LORD (Rom. 6:4). Over forty years ago this happened, and never has the Spirit left or forsaken me. God is more real to me than anyone or anything existing.

The Bible identifies the faith Alfred beyond any doubt. I won't say it is an easy thing to be a Christian, and it is certainly not a popular thing in satans world. But many do sir. It is something that all accountable humans have to choose.
 
The Bible identifies the faith Alfred beyond any doubt. I won't say it is an easy thing to be a Christian, and it is certainly not a popular thing in satans world. But many do sir. It is something that all accountable humans have to choose.

Jehovah did not answer me until I called out to Jesus, confessing He is LORD publicly, begging His forgiveness desiring He be my LORD even if it cost me my life. Then He answered me, Jehovah God Father Son and Holy Spirit, came into my life:

32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 "For I have come to`set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
36 "and`a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. (Matt. 10:32-39 NKJ)

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." (Rom. 10:8-11 NKJ)
 
Jehovah did not answer me until I called out to Jesus, confessing He is LORD publicly, begging His forgiveness desiring He be my LORD even if it cost me my life. Then He answered me, Jehovah God Father Son and Holy Spirit, came into my life:

32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 "For I have come to`set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
36 "and`a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. (Matt. 10:32-39 NKJ)

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." (Rom. 10:8-11 NKJ)
Christians do not pray to Jesus sir, rather in obedience they pray to the One in whom Jesus said to direct their prayers to. It would be unlikely you would receive an answer from God, but not impossible for sure. I would say the key is sincerity, but of course that sincerity would only take you so far, if you continued to worship God in your own way, then there would be some point in which God would turn you loose I would imagine.
 
Christians do not pray to Jesus sir, rather in obedience they pray to the One in whom Jesus said to direct their prayers to. It would be unlikely you would receive an answer from God, but not impossible for sure. I would say the key is sincerity, but of course that sincerity would only take you so far, if you continued to worship God in your own way, then there would be some point in which God would turn you loose I would imagine.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
(Jn. 5:21-23 NKJ)

To have live in yourself you must believe in the Name of Jesus, that He is God the Eternal Son, just as Thomas exclaimed and Jesus did not deny it:

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
(Jn. 20:27-31 NKJ)
 
Christians do not pray to Jesus sir, rather in obedience they pray to the One in whom Jesus said to direct their prayers to. It would be unlikely you would receive an answer from God, but not impossible for sure. I would say the key is sincerity, but of course that sincerity would only take you so far, if you continued to worship God in your own way, then there would be some point in which God would turn you loose I would imagine.
I apologize for my brief reply, it failed to produce scripture evidence Christ said we can ask Him directly in prayer:

Christ told us we can pray to Him directly:

ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με
if-ever anything YOU-should-ask me

ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου τοῦτο ποιήσω
in the name of-me this I-shall-do

- Kingdom Interlinear Translation, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1969

The New World Translation left "ME" out. The NIV didn't:

"If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it."-NWT
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. (Jn. 14:14 NIV)

The Greek Text proves you do err greatly dishonoring the Son and that dishonors the Father (John 5:23).


Yes, Christ taught we should pray to the Father, no doubt about that.

He also said we can pray to Him directly.

That was one of the main goals of miraculous works was for people to believe in His Name.


His Name is more than a label, it describes what is named. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, The Christ. The Father did signs and wonders through Jesus to prove THAT to everyone.

Just as your son in not "sub-human", so also the Father's Son is not "sub-God".


The Father did the works through Jesus to set HIS seal on EVERYTHING Christ taught is God's TRUTH.

And the Father commands all honor the Son even as they honor the Father:

"that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:23 NKJ)

Christians have historically honored the Son even as they honor the Father, because "the Word" is God (John 1:1).

Therefore, when Thomas exclaims "My Lord and my God", which would be blasphemy if Jesus weren't God, Jesus does not correct Him. Rather he commends Thomas' belief in Him as God, and says blessed are those who believe this even though they haven't seen all His works that only God could do, and God wouldn't do if Jesus weren't teaching correctly:

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:27-31 NKJ)

John arranged his gospel to end near Thomas' 'My Lord and my God", to discuss believing in the Name of Jesus, that He is the Christ the Son of God. He had a theological purpose for arranging it this way, to teach God's Son is not sub-God, an "a god".

Thomas knew this, and when He called Jesus "My God" and Jesus accepted the title:

Belief in Jesus' name (that He is God the Son) is necessary to have "life in His name".

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)
 
Last edited:
Didn't you say elsewhere that you believe that Jesus heals today?
There are different kinds of Cessationism. All Cessationists say God does NOT heal today through apostles like He did the Twelve in the NT.

Some Cessationists believe as I, that God does heal on occasion in answer to prayer, but physical healing doesn't always happen. Spiritual healing always happens.

Even Timothy wasn't healed of his infirmities:
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. (1 Tim. 5:23 NKJ)


God always responds to the prayer of faith. He always heals but sometimes its spiritual healing, not physical.

I base that on this text, the context connects the healing to forgiveness of sin, which implies the healing is spiritual, not physical.

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas. 5:14-15 NKJ)

5:14–15. James asked a third question and then answered it fully. Is any one of you sick? A great deal of misunderstanding has resulted from these verses. Some seem to teach from this passage that full physical health is always just a prayer away. Others have found in this passage justification for “extreme unction” (a practice begun in the eighth century). Still others have tried to relate the process outlined by James to the modern practice of invoking God (“pray over him”) and using medicine (“anoint him with oil”)—prayer plus a physician.

The heart of the problem lies in just what James meant when he referred to the “sick.” Actually there is no reason to consider “sick” as referring exclusively to physical illness. The word asthenei literally means “to be weak.” Though it is used in the Gospels for physical maladies, it is generally used in Acts and the Epistles to refer to a weak faith or a weak conscience (cf. Acts 20:35; Rom. 6:19; 14:1; 1 Cor. 8:9–12). That it should be considered “weak” in this verse is clear in that another Greek word (kamnonta) in James 5:15, translated sick person, literally means “to be weary.” The only other use in the New Testament (Heb. 12:3) of that word clearly emphasizes this same meaning.

James was not referring to the bedfast, the diseased, or the ill. Instead he wrote to those who had grown weary, who had become weak both morally and spiritually in the midst of suffering. These are the ones who should call for the help of the elders of the church. The early church leaders were instructed (1 Thes. 5:14) to “encourage the timid” and “help the weak” (asthenōn).

James said that the elders should pray over him and anoint him with oil. It is significant that the word “anoint” is aleipsantes (“rub with oil”) not chriō (“ceremonially anoint”). The former is the “mundane” word and the latter is “the sacred and religious word” (Richard Chenevix Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament, ninth ed. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1950, pp. 136–37). “Therefore James is not suggesting a ceremonial or ritual anointing as a means of divine healing; instead, he is referring to the common practice of using oil as a means of bestowing honor, refreshment, and grooming” (Daniel R. Hayden, “Calling the Elders to Pray,” Bibliotheca Sacra 138. July/September 1981: 264). The woman “poured” (aleiphō) perfume on Jesus’ feet (Luke 7:38). A host “put oil” (aleiphō) on the head of his guest (Luke 7:46). A person who is fasting should not be sad and ungroomed, but should “put oil” (aleiphō) on his head, and wash his face (Matt. 6:17). Thus James’ point is that the “weak” (asthenei) and “weary” (kamnonta) would be refreshed, encouraged, and uplifted by the elders who rubbed oil on the despondents’ heads and prayed for them.

For the fallen, discouraged, distressed weary believer, restoration is assured and the elders’ prayer offered in faith will make the sick person (lit., “weary one”) well (i.e., will restore him from discouragement and spiritual defeat), and the Lord will raise him up.

That the restoration is spiritual, not physical, is further clarified by the assurance, if he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Many physically ill Christians have called on elders to pray for them and to anoint them with oil, but a sizable percentage of them have remained sick. This fact suggests that the passage may have been mistakenly understood as physical restoration rather than spiritual restoration.

5:16. The conclusion is clear: therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other. A mutual concern for one another is the way to combat discouragement and downfall. The cure is in personal confession and prayerful concern. The healing (that you may be healed) is not bodily healing but healing of the soul (iathēte; cf. Matt. 13:15; Heb. 12:13; 1 Peter 2:24). It is the powerful and effective … prayer of a righteous person that brings the needed cure from God. This of course relates to the closing two verses of James’ letter. If James 5:14–16 refer to physical healing, then those verses seem disjointed with the verses before and after them.-Blue, J. R. (1985). James. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, pp. 834–835). Victor Books.
 
Last edited:
Healing does happen today as in Paul's day...and physical healing did not always happen in Paul's day; as in the case of Timothy and Trophimus.

But it did happen in Paul's day; and it does happen in our day; even in answer to prayer.

God ultimately decides whether He will say yes, no, or wait, to any prayer.

But I will say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever; and that therefore He heals today as in His own day, all who come to Him in faith with a request to be healed.

"He could not do many miracles there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5).

It is not only the unbelief of the person requesting to be healed that might hinder the work of the Lord; but the unbelief of those surrounding the person wanting to be healed. They may rob a person of their healing if the person wanting to be healed has faith but their family and friends don't believe in the power of God to heal. They will not be healed because of the unbelief of those surrounding the person who has faith; that person will not be healed because of surrounding unbelief.

That is why there needs to be an atmosphere of expectancy in evangelistic healing crusades. The absence of such an atmosphere and Spirit, is the presence of unbelief.

In such an atmosphere you are not going to have people say, when a healing takes place, "We need to get this checked out by a medical examiner. The miracle will be believed without any "proof" being necessary.

If such proof were to be shown, it would be giving a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation; something that Jesus said He will not do.

And therefore, when proof is asked for and needed, chances are that Jesus will take back the healing that He did in that person's life in order that a wicked and adulterous generation may not receive a sign.
 
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
(Jn. 5:21-23 NKJ)

To have live in yourself you must believe in the Name of Jesus, that He is God the Eternal Son, just as Thomas exclaimed and Jesus did not deny it:

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
(Jn. 20:27-31 NKJ)
Josh 24:15 Alfred, as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.
 
I apologize for my brief reply, it failed to produce scripture evidence Christ said we can ask Him directly in prayer:

Christ told us we can pray to Him directly:

ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με
if-ever anything YOU-should-ask me

ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου τοῦτο ποιήσω
in the name of-me this I-shall-do

- Kingdom Interlinear Translation, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1969

The New World Translation left "ME" out. The NIV didn't:

"If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it."-NWT
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. (Jn. 14:14 NIV)

The Greek Text proves you do err greatly dishonoring the Son and that dishonors the Father (John 5:23).


Yes, Christ taught we should pray to the Father, no doubt about that.

He also said we can pray to Him directly.

That was one of the main goals of miraculous works was for people to believe in His Name.


His Name is more than a label, it describes what is named. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, The Christ. The Father did signs and wonders through Jesus to prove THAT to everyone.

Just as your son in not "sub-human", so also the Father's Son is not "sub-God".


The Father did the works through Jesus to set HIS seal on EVERYTHING Christ taught is God's TRUTH.

And the Father commands all honor the Son even as they honor the Father:

"that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:23 NKJ)

Christians have historically honored the Son even as they honor the Father, because "the Word" is God (John 1:1).

Therefore, when Thomas exclaims "My Lord and my God", which would be blasphemy if Jesus weren't God, Jesus does not correct Him. Rather he commends Thomas' belief in Him as God, and says blessed are those who believe this even though they haven't seen all His works that only God could do, and God wouldn't do if Jesus weren't teaching correctly:

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:27-31 NKJ)

John arranged his gospel to end near Thomas' 'My Lord and my God", to discuss believing in the Name of Jesus, that He is the Christ the Son of God. He had a theological purpose for arranging it this way, to teach God's Son is not sub-God, an "a god".

Thomas knew this, and when He called Jesus "My God" and Jesus accepted the title:

Belief in Jesus' name (that He is God the Son) is necessary to have "life in His name".

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)
Christ told us we can pray to Him directly:

ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με
if-ever anything YOU-should-ask me

ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου τοῦτο ποιήσω
in the name of-me this I-shall-do

- Kingdom Interlinear Translation, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1969

The New World Translation left "ME" out. The NIV didn't:
NWT: (John 14:14) 14 If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

So who is right? Did we remove it, or did you add it sir? How does that compare with the rest of the Bible? Would you not consider it better to obey Jesus' admonition on whom to directr your prayers to? Mat 6:9
 
NWT: (John 14:14) 14 If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

So who is right? Did we remove it, or did you add it sir? How does that compare with the rest of the Bible? Would you not consider it better to obey Jesus' admonition on whom to directr your prayers to? Mat 6:9
Its in the Greek, both Westcott and Hort's corrupt text the Watchtower used, and the Byzantine or Majority Text the Church has used since the apostles. Even the 28th edition (they can't seem to make up their mind) of the - Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece has it.

Christ said to pray to the Father, but He also said we can pray to Him. The Society removed it, not με.

I consider it better to obey Jesus than change the Bible, don't you?
 
NWT: (John 14:14) 14 If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

So who is right? Did we remove it, or did you add it sir? How does that compare with the rest of the Bible? Would you not consider it better to obey Jesus' admonition on whom to directr your prayers to? Mat 6:9
If you removed it, the consequences would remain invisible. But if we added to it, there would be visible, and less severe, consequences (Revelation 22:18-19).
 
Healing does happen today as in Paul's day...and physical healing did not always happen in Paul's day; as in the case of Timothy and Trophimus.

But it did happen in Paul's day; and it does happen in our day; even in answer to prayer.

God ultimately decides whether He will say yes, no, or wait, to any prayer.

But I will say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever; and that therefore He heals today as in His own day, all who come to Him in faith with a request to be healed.

"He could not do many miracles there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5).

It is not only the unbelief of the person requesting to be healed that might hinder the work of the Lord; but the unbelief of those surrounding the person wanting to be healed. They may rob a person of their healing if the person wanting to be healed has faith but their family and friends don't believe in the power of God to heal. They will not be healed because of the unbelief of those surrounding the person who has faith; that person will not be healed because of surrounding unbelief.

That is why there needs to be an atmosphere of expectancy in evangelistic healing crusades. The absence of such an atmosphere and Spirit, is the presence of unbelief.

In such an atmosphere you are not going to have people say, when a healing takes place, "We need to get this checked out by a medical examiner. The miracle will be believed without any "proof" being necessary.

If such proof were to be shown, it would be giving a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation; something that Jesus said He will not do.

And therefore, when proof is asked for and needed, chances are that Jesus will take back the healing that He did in that person's life in order that a wicked and adulterous generation may not receive a sign.
Jesus will "take back" a healing so unbelievers not receive a sign?

That doesn't sound like Jesus at all. That is dark.

44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
(Matt. 5:44-48 NKJ)

Unbelief prevented Christ from doing miracles in His home country because they opposed Him, didn't believe He was the Messiah and could heal them:

54 And when He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?
55 "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?
56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?"
57 So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."
58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (Matt. 13:54-58 NKJ)

As for the "atmosphere of expectancy", it was the healings that created it. You have it reversed:

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Great multitudes followed Him-- from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. (Matt. 4:23-25 NKJ)


I searched the scriptures for a parallel to modern healers, who fail to heal so often they have to blame the sick. That didn't happen in Jesus' Day:

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses." (Matt. 8:16-17 NKJ)

Clearly the healing power of Christ and His apostles hasn't "continued" in the churches you described. You won't find Christ or the apostles blaming the sick or their relatives for not getting healed.
 
Alfred Persson, you are contradicting yourself.

On the one hand, you have said on these forums that you believe that Jesus heals today.

Then you go and say this:

Clearly the healing power of Christ and His apostles hasn't "continued" in the churches you described.

Which one is it?

Because you have to admit that it is scientifically viable that people who have been diagnosed with severe problems have a better prognosis when they are being prayed for.

So, you appear to be arguing out of two sides of your mouth.
 
Alfred Persson, you are contradicting yourself.

On the one hand, you have said on these forums that you believe that Jesus heals today.

Then you go and say this:



Which one is it?

Because you have to admit that it is scientifically viable that people who have been diagnosed with severe problems have a better prognosis when they are being prayed for.

So, you appear to be arguing out of two sides of your mouth.
The post explained why I said that.

I don't deny people are healed in your church, or apart from your church in response to prayer.

But you made excuses for people not getting healed today that are NOT found in the NT. Therefore, what your church is doing cannot be a "continuation" of what Christ and His disciples did.

Also, I find it incredible you allege Christ would take back a healing to deny unbelievers a sign?

Find that in the Bible. You cannot.
 
The post explained why I said that.

I don't deny people are healed in your church, or apart from your church in response to prayer.

But you made excuses for people not getting healed today that are NOT found in the NT. Therefore, what your church is doing cannot be a "continuation" of what Christ and His disciples did.

Also, I find it incredible you allege Christ would take back a healing to deny unbelievers a sign?

Find that in the Bible. You cannot.
Mat 16:4, A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Mar 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
 
Mat 16:4, A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Mar 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Neither of those verses suggest Christ took back healings, or undid a miraculous work, because the Pharisees and Sadduccees were "tempting Christ" to do "signs from heaven".

Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. (Matt. 16:1 NKJ)

They wanted signs in the sky only God could do. But Christ already gave them plenty of signs and they claimed these were the Devil's work:

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw.
23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." (Matt. 12:22-24 NKJ)

Christ gave them signs galore, but they intentionally blasphemed them as "of the devil"

31 And many of the people believed in Him, and said, "When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?"
32 The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him. (Jn. 7:31-32 NKJ)

Christ refused to ask God the Father dance to their music:

16 "But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,
17 "and saying:`We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not lament.'
18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say,`He has a demon.'
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,`Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
(Matt. 11:16-24 NKJ)

None of this suggests Christ didn't give them plenty of signs, or that He would undo a healing to spite people.
 
The reality is that Jesus will not give a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation.

So, if a sign was proven to someone who is wicked and adulterous, is that not a sign given to them?

Therefore, if someone, having faith, obtains a miracle from Jesus, and then someone goes about to prove that sign or wonder to someone who is wicked and adulterous, how will the sign not be given to them; except Jesus takes back the miracle?
 
Back
Top