The Theology of Self Examination, testing to see whether one is "in the faith"

[Alfred Persson]

The reality is that Jesus will not give a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation.

So, if a sign was proven to someone who is wicked and adulterous, is that not a sign given to them?

Therefore, if someone, having faith, obtains a miracle from Jesus, and then someone goes about to prove that sign or wonder to someone who is wicked and adulterous, how will the sign not be given to them; except Jesus takes back the miracle?

That speculation is contrary to everything we know about loving Jesus. He would not undo a healing to deny it happened.

Jesus healed people who were His enemies. The cripple by the Sheep Gate pool, in Bethesda, was willing to engage pagan deities for a healing. After Jesus heals him, he went to the Pharisees EVERYONE KNEW were looking to kill Jesus. Jesus warned him "sin no more", but didn't take back the healing even though this man betrayed Jesus to His enemies:

2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had.
5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?"
7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me."
8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."
9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed."
11 He answered them, "He who made me well said to me,`Take up your bed and walk.'"
12 Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you,`Take up your bed and walk '?"
13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. (Jn. 5:2-16 NKJ)

 

[justbyfaith]

That speculation is contrary to everything we know about loving Jesus. He would not undo a healing to deny it happened.

Jesus healed people who were His enemies. The cripple by the Sheep Gate pool, in Bethesda, was willing to engage pagan deities for a healing. After Jesus heals him, he went to the Pharisees EVERYONE KNEW were looking to kill Jesus. Jesus warned him "sin no more", but didn't take back the healing even though this man betrayed Jesus to His enemies:

2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had.
5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?"
7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me."
8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."
9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed."
11 He answered them, "He who made me well said to me,`Take up your bed and walk.'"
12 Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you,`Take up your bed and walk '?"
13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. (Jn. 5:2-16 NKJ)

Jesus did not have to take back the man's healing because the Pharisees would overlook the fact that he was healed and would focus on the fact that he was carrying his mat on the sabbath day. They did not acknowledge that Jesus had healed the man; and therefore no sign was given to them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus did not have to take back the man's healing because the Pharisees would overlook the fact that he was healed and would focus on the fact that he was carrying his mat on the sabbath day. They did not acknowledge that Jesus had healed the man; and therefore no sign was given to them.

The man betrayed Christ. Everyone knew they sought Christ, and incredibly this man "ratted Him out" the very moment he could. An act of betrayal unlike any I can imagine.

Even so, Christ did not take back His healing. He practiced what He preached, to love even His enemies.

But you speculate He take back a healing, just to deny religionists "a sign" they rejected anyway.

Your theory is not only impossible, its "dark."

 

[justbyfaith]

The man betrayed Christ. Everyone knew they sought Christ, and incredibly this man "ratted Him out" the very moment he could. An act of betrayal unlike any I can imagine.

Even so, Christ did not take back His healing. He practiced what He preached, to love even His enemies.

But you speculate He take back a healing, just to deny religionists "a sign" they rejected anyway.

Your theory is not only impossible, its "dark."

May the Lord abundantly bless you.

Yes, they rejected the sign so He did not have to take back the healing.

If it would have caused them to believe in Jesus, the man may not have been healed in the first place (except that he had personal faith to be healed); because it would have been a sign given to a wicked and adulterous generation.

Jesus did say to the man "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you".

And we do not hear that the man continued to be healed after he "betrayed" Jesus...

The last we hear of the man is in the very story that we first hear of him in.

Nevertheless, Jesus did not have to take back the miracle; because the man was not wicked and adulterous. The Pharisees were the established religion of the day; and in telling them that Jesus had healed him, maybe he just wanted God to get the glory. It wasn't his fault that the Pharisees persecuted Jesus as a result.

Because, notice it doesn't say that he told them that it was Jesus who told him to take up his bed and walk. He specifically said that Jesus had healed him. That is something you or I might do if we wanted Jesus to get the glory for the miracle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

May the Lord abundantly bless you.

Yes, they rejected the sign so He did not have to take back the healing.

If it would have caused them to believe in Jesus, the man may not have been healed in the first place (except that he had personal faith to be healed); because it would have been a sign given to a wicked and adulterous generation.

Jesus did say to the man "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you".

And we do not hear that the man continued to be healed after he "betrayed" Jesus...

The last we hear of the man is in the very story that we first hear of him in.

Nevertheless, Jesus did not have to take back the miracle; because the man was not wicked and adulterous. The Pharisees were the established religion of the day; and in telling them that Jesus had healed him, maybe he just wanted God to get the glory. It wasn't his fault that the Pharisees persecuted Jesus as a result.

Because, notice it doesn't say that he told them that it was Jesus who told him to take up his bed and walk. He specifically said that Jesus had healed him. That is something you or I might do if we wanted Jesus to get the glory for the miracle.

Jesus is God the Son, He knows the future. For example, that the cock would crow when Peter thrice denied Him.

Jesus planned this, went out of His way to find this person, ignoring other sick people there. Then He commands the man to "take up his bed and walk" so the Jews would object.

Then Jesus finds Him again, reveals His identity. Tells him "sin no more" knowing that is precisely what the "rat" will do:

14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. (Jn. 5:14-15 NKJ)

Jesus wanted this opportunity to confront the religious authorities with precisely the message He did:

8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."
9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed."
11 He answered them, "He who made me well said to me,`Take up your bed and walk.'"
12 Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you,`Take up your bed and walk '?"
13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
31 "If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
32 "There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.
33 "You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
34 "Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.
35 "He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.
36 "But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish-- the very works that I do-- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 "I do not receive honor from men.
42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you-- Moses, in whom you trust.
46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (Jn. 5:8-6:1 NKJ)

Even though the man betrayed Christ, given His command we are to love our enemies, its impossible Jesus took back the healing. He practiced what He preached.

 

[justbyfaith]

Those at the pool were seeking the healing from false gods = demons, not the God of Israel.

Where in the text do you find that information?

Then Jesus finds Him again, reveals His identity. Tells him "sin no more" knowing that is precisely what the "rat" will do:

14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. (Jn. 5:14-15 NKJ)

I think that you are unjustly judging the lame man. As Jesus said, Judge not according to the outward appearance; but judge righteous judgment.

The man was not necessarily a "rat".

Maybe he was thankful to Jesus for healing him and wanted Him to receive the glory.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is God the Son,

Yes, He is the Father come in human flesh.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where in the text do you find that information?

I think that you are unjustly judging the lame man. As Jesus said, Judge not according to the outward appearance; but judge righteous judgment.

The man was not necessarily a "rat".

Maybe he was thankful to Jesus for healing him and wanted Him to receive the glory.

Inference from the pool being the "Healing Center Of Asclepius". Unfortunately, inferior texts says it was "an angel of the Lord" who stirred the waters. The correct text just reads "angel". So it was a pagan shrine, and may be part of the reason Christ said "sin no more." It was wrong to seek from idols what should be sought from the God of Israel.

But as I said, the corrupt text every new Bible uses obscures that association.

Everyone with any street cred knows, informants are "rats".

He did NOT thank Christ, he immediately scurried like a rat to the authorities to snitch on Jesus.

I'm sure something worse did happen to him, because he did "sin more". Its call hell.

 

[gordon777]

Your theory is not only impossible, its "dark."

The thread is the theology of self examination, testing if one is of the faith.


So far the thread was the usual as all threads on this forum usually are, a run in with people of different denominations, and no edification through it.


Now it is a debate about healing and the authorities. Theories are not faithful, neither is engaging in them of the faith.

 

[gordon777]

Inference from the pool being the "Healing Center Of Asclepius". Unfortunately, inferior texts says it was "an angel of the Lord" who stirred the waters. The correct text just reads "angel". So it was a pagan shrine, and may be part of the reason Christ said "sin no more." It was wrong to seek from idols what should be sought from the God of Israel.

But as I said, the corrupt text every new Bible uses obscures that association.

The text says an angel, and it says further, went down.

Where do we find angels go down from, Revelation shows from heaven.




John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

Revelation 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Revelation 18:1
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.




But the angels that sinned on earth, were sent down to hell



2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[gordon777]

Everyone with any street cred knows, informants are "rats".

He did NOT thank Christ, he immediately scurried like a rat to the authorities to snitch on Jesus.

I'm sure something worse did happen to him, because he did "sin more". Its call hell.

Everyone knows to obey Jesus was trouble for themselves, the man obeyed the command of Christ to take up his bed.



John 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.



Jesus also taught us to be as the Father in heaven, to be good to the grateful and ungrateful.


Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Luke 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

[Highway54]

I do, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Jehovah our God is One Jehovah, in three divine persons.

We disagree Alfred. Not a Bible teaching sir.

 

[Highway54]

Its in the Greek, both Westcott and Hort's corrupt text the Watchtower used, and the Byzantine or Majority Text the Church has used since the apostles. Even the 28th edition (they can't seem to make up their mind) of the - Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece has it.

Christ said to pray to the Father, but He also said we can pray to Him. The Society removed it, not με.

I consider it better to obey Jesus than change the Bible, don't you?

I consider it better to obey Jesus than change the Bible, don't you?

Exactly!

 

[Highway54]

If you removed it, the consequences would remain invisible. But if we added to it, there would be visible, and less severe, consequences (Revelation 22:18-19).

There are many words added to all versions of the Bible Faith. The Bible don't actually exist, but the oldest copies are virtually unreadable, so words were added righteously for understanding. Many words were added to various versions to support a dogma, which of course God would not approve of.

Adding to or subtracting from in order to manipulate truth will be dealt with by God, as you brought out Faith.

 

[gordon777]

We disagree Alfred. Not a Bible teaching sir.

The bible teaching is to all be of the same mind and judgement, nobody who is in divisions has the stability of Christ.

Your words on example of Christianity can only be division and contention, it is not the bible teaching therefore.

Neither will you ever be able to show you are speaking right by showing you are in a divided religion, against somebody who is not. ( me)



1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[gordon777]

There are many words added to all versions of the Bible Faith. The Bible don't actually exist, but the oldest copies are virtually unreadable, so words were added righteously for understanding. Many words were added to various versions to support a dogma, which of course God would not approve of.

Adding to or subtracting from in order to manipulate truth will be dealt with by God, as you brought out Faith.

The words of Jesus exist even when this world does not.




Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.


Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, He is the Father come in human flesh.

No, He is the Eternal Only Begotten Son of the Father. Nor is Jesus the Holy Spirit. There is One God subsisting in Three Divine Persons.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Everyone knows to obey Jesus was trouble for themselves, the man obeyed the command of Christ to take up his bed.



John 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.



Jesus also taught us to be as the Father in heaven, to be good to the grateful and ungrateful.


Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Luke 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?"
7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me."
8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."
9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed."
11 He answered them, "He who made me well said to me,`Take up your bed and walk.'" (Jn. 5:5-11 NKJ)

For 38 years the man sought a pagan cure. Superstitious. Although Jesus commanded "Rise, take up your bed and walk" it's more likely feared any disobedience would cause his infirmity to return, than desire to obey Christ.

But it is correct Jesus was good to him, unthankful "rat" that he was.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We disagree Alfred. Not a Bible teaching sir.

But it is. The very fabric of scripture implies Trinitarian Truth.

Apostles of Denial: Gruss, Edmond C.: 9780875523057: Amazon.com: Books

Apostles of Denial [Gruss, Edmond C.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Apostles of Denial

www.amazon.com

Although it was Edmond P. Gruss' book "Apostles of Denial" that opened my eyes to Bible Teaching, ChatGPT says James White's book is considered one of the best treatments of the truth:

Forgotten Trinity, The Paperback – November 1, 1998​

by James R. White (Author)

Discover Afresh the Living Truth of a Foundational Christian Belief The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how He relates to us. The Forgotten Trinity is a concise, understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters. It refutes cultic distortions of God. It shows how a grasp of this significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian. And amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit, The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trin

https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Trinity-James-R-White/dp/1556617259

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where in the text do you find that information?

I think that you are unjustly judging the lame man. As Jesus said, Judge not according to the outward appearance; but judge righteous judgment.

The man was not necessarily a "rat".

Maybe he was thankful to Jesus for healing him and wanted Him to receive the glory.

Asclepius was "the god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology."-Wikipedia

A false god, an abomination to Yahweh God of Israel, no Jew zealous for God would seek anything from Asclepius. But for 38 years, that is precisely what this man did.

Nothing in the context indicates he thanked Jesus although I'm sure he likely was thankful to some degree.

The moment he learned Jesus' name he shared that intel with those persecuting Jesus, wanting to kill Him.

Everyone knew they hated Jesus; it wasn't a secret.

He was not seeking Jesus' glory; the religious authorities didn't offer any.

Rather than thank Christ and beg to join His disciples, worshipping Him; We read he immediately departed from Jesus and couldn't wait to tell Christ's enemies His name:

12 Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you,`Take up your bed and walk '?"
13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. (Jn. 5:12-16 NKJ)