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The Tribulation Period lasting for 7 years is a FALSE Doctri

The Tribulation Period lasting for 7 years is a FALSE Doctrine!

For all that think the Tribulation Period is going to last for 7 years, you will soon find yourselves in for a very rude awakening. If you do not take heed, research, study and pray for wisdom and understanding you are going to find yourselves right dab in the middle of the ‘times of Jacobs troubles’ with only two choices; either take the mark of the beast, or die for the word of God!

Think about this using just a little common sense;

There is ONE verse and ONE verse ONLY, found in the book of Daniel, that someone without any knowledge, wisdom nor understanding, has tied together 7 years to what they THINK is the tribulation period. When, in fact, THIS particular vision of Daniel has NOTHING to do with the tribulation period nor the Abomination of Desolation (AOD). Jesus, Daniel, Paul and John tells us it is the action of the Abomination of Desolation (the son of perdition, the man of sin) that sets in motion the time frame of the tribulation period. So how can a verse that mentions nothing about the AOD or the tribulation period be correct prophecy concerning a 7 year tribulation? It CAN’T!

In contrast, God tells us (6) times and in 3 different ways that the tribulation period WILL last for 3.5 years. He tells us in the OT! He tell us in the NT! He tells us using Days! He tells us using Months! He tells us using Years! Along with all He has given us, He even tells us what event to look for that will kick it all off! God tells us so many times and in so many ways it is almost HARD to miss. And yet there will be those that will let someone do just what Jesus and Paul warned us about;

Matt.24
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

2Thes.2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I’m sorry to say, but if you have been taught, and believe, the tribulation period is going to last for 7 years…..YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED!!!

Can you can prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the tribulation period will last for 7 years? Your life depends upon it



THIS Vision is NOT about the Tribulation Period


Before proving that the Tribulation period will last for 3.5yrs. Let’s examine how Daniel’s vision IS NOT speaking about a 7yr tribulation period.

There is only verse that tries to link the Tribulation Period to 7yrs; the misunderstood 70 weeks vision of Daniel found in the 9th chapter. Let's read it;

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now remember……this is the ONLY verse in the entire bible that people will use to defend a 7yr tribulation period. Let’s see it their defense is supported by scriptures.

Most believe it is during this 1 prophetic week (7yrs) the tribulation takes place, and in the middle of the week, (3.5yrs) the sacrifices will end. Well let's back up a bit to see what the subject of THIS vision is.

[1] In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

[2] In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

We find that Daniel was reading in the books of Jeremiah, about what would become of the Holy city Jerusalem. Mind you, this was during the 1st year of the reign of Darius. The vision that actually mentions the AOD does not come until years later. Let’s now read the answer from Gabriel;

[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

So the angel Gabriel came to give Daniel an answer to his questions.

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now at what point did the angel Gabriel say anything about the Abomination of Desolation, the man of sin, the son of perdition, or the Tribulation Period sometimes called the times of Jacobs trouble? He didn’t. Not once!

This vision IS NOT about the Abomination of Desolation nor the Tribulation Period. It is about the nation of Israel, the Holy city Jerusalem, and the anointing of the most Holy, Jesus Christ.

Let’s look at the vision, as it is told to Daniel by the angel Gabriel. More importantly, let’s find the subject of the vision; who is it speaking of.

[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Without getting into the entire prophecy, we know for a fact the only person mentioned above is the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Let’s read more;

[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Again, the ONLY person mentioned thus far is Jesus Christ. How do we know? Because it was Jesus Christ that was killed, ‘cut off’, but not because of something He did. Now let’s read the last verse;

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Again, WHO is the ‘he’ mentioned above? It can ONLY be the one spoken of throughout this entire vision…..Jesus Christ! How can it be anyone else? It CAN’T!!!!

Let’s look at something else. Gabriel used the word ‘confirm’ and NOT ‘make’. Let’s look up the difference.

Confirm - to make certain that a tentative arrangement or one made earlier is firm.

Make - to cause a condition or situation to arise or exist.

Who was it that had already made a covenant with the nation of Israel and would later confirm it? None other than Jesus Christ!

And who was it that stopped the sacrifice and oblation to cease? Again, Jesus Christ! When you ask? The moment He died.

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;†Matt.27:51

When Jesus died and the veil ripped it two, that was the end of animal sacrifice.

As a matter of fact, all of this events happened within the time frame given above in the 27th verse.

Not only did Jesus stop the sacrifices in the middle of a prophetic week; His ministry was for 3.5 years, He also died in the middle of a literal week, a Wednesday (another lesson I know, but it is the ONLY way to get 3 days and 3 nights, 72 hours, just as Jesus said)

So just as Gabriel told Daniel at the beginning, this vision is about, the nation of Israel, the city Jerusalem and the most Holy, Jesus Christ.

Again, at what point is the AOD mentioned? Or what about the times of trouble?. Something that must be understood is that Daniel had MORE that one vision. Some had to do with the last days. And others had to do with the kings that was ruling at the time.

So are you SURE this is speaking about a 7 year tribulation period? There is no way it can!






God said 3.5 years for the times of Jacobs Troubles, NOT 7!


Now that we have cleared that up, let’s read from God‘s holy word about the Tribulation period and how long He says it will last. I pray you will take the time to not only read the information, but study it, examine it...see if it makes sense.

Let’s first go to the NT and the book of Rev. to see if we can find any information about anything concerning the tribulation period or things associated with it.

In the book of Rev. we learn of (2) descriptions of the woman fleeing to the wilderness and that the phrase, ‘time, times and half a time.’ is equal to 3.5 years.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 3.5 years. Rev 12:6.

And who is the woman? It is the church…i.e. all those that have chosen to following the true and living God. And we are told that God will take care of the church for a thousand (1000) + two hundred (200) + three score (20+20+20) days which equals 3.5 years. Now just to back that up God tells us in another way.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 3.5 years. Rev 12:14.

And how do we get 3.5 years from this? Let’s reason; a time = 1 year. Times = 2 years. Half a time = .5 years. Together: 1+2+.5= 3.5 years. Thus far this is pretty simple. Now let’s go to the OT to the book of Daniel and read about ANOTHER one of his many visions;


Daniel was told in a dream that the time of trouble would last for, ‘…for a time, times, and an half;’ 3.5 years. Dan 12:7.

Again, we already know just how long this is from what we learned in Rev. A time, times and a half is equal to 3.5 years. And remember, this time that Daniel speaks of is like no other. It is a one time event. It is the Tribulation period. Now let’s jump back to the NT;

It was revealed to John that the AOD would speak great things and blasphemies and that, ’… power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.†Forty-two months equals, 3.5 years. Rev 13:5.

And how long is 42 months? 3.5 years. Now let’s look at an individual described the same way by Daniel and how long he would rule;

It was revealed to Daniel that the AOD would, ‘…speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 3.5 years. Dan 7:25

Again we have a familiar number. One we already know is equal to 3.5 years. Let’s look at another;

Daniel also tells us that the total time from the setting up of the AOD, until the time he take away the daily sacrifice, ‘…there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.’ . 3.5 years. Dan 7:11.

Again we have a number that is very close to what we have learned thus far, but remember, this time frame also includes the time needed to set up the AOD, which accounts for the extra 30days.

At the same time all of these events are taking place, God sends two witnesses to prophesy and perform miracles for, ’…a thousand two hundred and threescore days…’, or, 3.5 years,

Again 3.5 years. Do you think God is trying His best to send us a message? Let’s review:


- The AOD would speak great things and blasphemies and that, ’… power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.†Forty-two months equals, 3.5 years. Rev 13:5

- The AOD would, ‘…speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 3.5 years. Dan 7:25

- The total time from the setting up of the AOD, until the time he take away the daily sacrifice, ‘…there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.’ . 3.5 years + 30 days to set uo the AOD. Dan 7:11.

- The woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 3.5 years. Rev 12:6.

- And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 3.5 years. Rev 12:14.

- Daniel was told in a dream that the time of trouble would last for, ‘…for a time, times, and an half;’ 3.5 years. Dan 12:7.

- At the same time all of these events are taking place, God sends two witnesses to prophesy and perform miracles for, ’…a thousand two hundred and threescore days…’, or, 3.5 years,


God gave us a time frame of 3.5 years in (7) different places in the bible, in both the OT and NT. Can you think of ANY warning, throughout the entire bible, given to us more? There is NONE!!! How many times and in how many ways must God tell us this warning?


Now if God wanted to tell us the Tribulation period was to last for 7 years he could just as easily have said;

"Two thousand five hundred and fifty and five days."

"Times, Times, Times and a Time."

"Eighty and Four months."

But He did not! Now why is that? It would not have been hard to do or for us to figure out.

Again….would you like to go with the ONE scripture that says NOTHING at all about the AOD nor the Tribulation Period and try to MAKE it fit into what you think is right?

Or would you rather go with the plain and very easy to understand warnings of Daniel, Paul, John and your Savior Jesus Christ?


Choose very carefully……Your life DOES depend upon it!


As always, please pray for wisdom and understanding


Peace in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
The 3.5 yr tribulational period (42 months) was exactly how long the siege on Jerusalem lasted from 67-70AD.
 
Yes, I agree the 7 years' teaching is false too. Good one!
 
I agree that the seven year period Daniel speaks of is Messianic; by most accounts, the period from when Jesus' ministry stared to the time He was crucified is 3 1/2 years and from that time to the time the gospel was offered up to the first gentile was seven years. The mention of the destruction of the city and sanctuary (temple) is a parenthesis in Daniel's prophecy. It isn't a part of the seven years, but it is the eventual cause of the AOD.

Jesus mentions this AoD in Mat 24:15.

The death of Jesus did cause the sacrifices and the oblations to cease, though it didn't happen immediately. Those who did not accept Jesus as their Messiah continued on in the Temple until it was eventually destroyed, never to be rebuilt again by man.

Jesus said He would rebuild a temple (spiritual) in three days (the time he was dead until the time he was raised). John 2:19-21

Jesus and His ekklesia are this new Temple.

I believe we have been in a period of Tribulation for some 2,000 years. History and some prophecies will repeat themselves. There will be a falling away. There is a falling away already. Eventually, an effort to exert a one world religion will result in someone claiming to be the "ruler" over all believers 2 Th 2:4

I do not believe the abomination of desolation and the son of perdition are talking about the same 'thing'.
 
toddm said:
The 3.5 yr tribulational period (42 months) was exactly how long the siege on Jerusalem lasted from 67-70AD.

There are many times of tribualtion given to us in the bible. But there can only be (1) Great Tribulation period. Also understand, there were MANY signs given to us by Jesus concerning the great tribulation period. One of the main events He said would happen was this;

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And since we know this has not happened, whatever tribulation period that has happened on this earth thus far has NOT been the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matt.24.


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The 7 years idea is symbolic, and it is there, regardless if some want to see it as deception...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Those 70 weeks of Daniel 9 represent a whole period of 70 years. If one excludes everything after the end of Dan.9:26, you'll find the very last symbolic "week" missing, it won't total up to 70 weeks (490 years) like the prophecy declares.

Just because the 1260 days or 42 months or 3 and 1/2 years time of Jacob's trouble can be easily understood, it doesn't mean we can just throw away the first half of the "one week" period. Because the Scripture also includes the phrase of "in the midst of the week", that further enforces the existence of a full "one week" period, which symbolically represents 7 years.

Period 1 - "seven weeks" (seven sevens or 49 years; from declaration of Artaxerxes in 20th year of his reign in 454 B.C. to time of Jerusalem's restoration in 405 B.C..)

Period 2 - "threescore and two weeks" (434 years; from 405 B.C. to 29 A.D. when Messiah was "cut off")

So far, the total = 69 sevens, or 483 years. 7 years is missing without counting the last period.

Period 3 - "one week" (7 years; ) Makes total of 70 weeks (490 years; or 70 sevens)
 
The one that will "confirm the covenant with many for one week" is not about our Lord Jesus...

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The part in bold is about Israel's rejection of Messiah, meaning the kingdom is in abeyance after that point. This is the reason Israel is then left unto itself to suffer desolations.

The "prince" in the next clause is about the people under him that would destroy the city and temple, pointing to the Romans. It's also a blueprint for the final antichrist. The subject of that "prince" continues into the next verse...

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

This is why the Romans in 70 A.D. serves as a blueprint for the final antichrist, because the Romans did not confirm any covenant for many for one week. Nor did the Romans setup the "abomination of desolation". But is that all that's recorded in Daniel about this prophecy? No, there's actually 3 more chapters in Daniel, and in Daniel 11 we're given more about the final antichrist involving the abomination of desolation...

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

There's the confirming of a covenant by antichrist.

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

So covering just the 70 weeks example of Daniel 9 without this prophecy of the abomination of desolation event in Daniel 11 kind of shows deception.
.
 
veteran said:
The one that will "confirm the covenant with many for one week" is not about our Lord Jesus....

Let's go to the beginning of the chapter to find out what was Daniel reading;

Dan.9
[2] In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

So we see that Daniel was reading the book of Jeremiah. And he understood it was given to Jeremiah that there would be seventy years of desolation upon the city of Jerusalem.

Now why is it hardly nobody ever goes to the book of Jeremiah to find out what was given to HIM. Let's now find out what was given to Jeremiah;

Jer.25
[1] The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon;
[2] The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying,

So now we see the word that was given to Jeremiah was to ALL the people of Judah and Jerusalem. SO we know WHO this is directed to.

[4] And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.
[5] They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:
[6] And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

So now we know WHY this punishment was given to ALL of the people of Judah.

[9] Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

We now know WHAT the punishment will be.

[11] And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Now we see the period of time God will punish the nation of Israel. So we have the WHEN.

[13] And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.

So ALL that is written in the book of Jeremiah is eventually going to happen, but the only question Daniel has is about the (70) years.

Now let's go back to see what was revealed to Daniel;

Dan.9
[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Let's read what was given to Daniel;

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So Gabriel just gace us the WHO; "the people". The WHERE; " thy holy city". The WHY; "to make an end of sins". And the WHEN; "seventy weeks".

Now at what point was the antichrist ever mentioned? The only other person spoken of was, "the most Holy", which we know is Jesus Christ.

Now let's read what is to happen to the most Holy and see if we can apply it to ANY OTHER person;


. Who was it that made a covenant with Israel in the wilderness and will retrun to CONFIRM that same covenant?

. Who's ministry was for 3.5yrs?

. Who was cut off/killed but not for himself?

. What was torn in two the moment Jesus died, ending sacrifices and oblations?


ALL of these point to one person and one person ONLY.....Jesus Christ!


We just went to the book of Jeremiah to read what was given to him.
We just read that same information that Daniel read.

At what point is the antichrist EVER mentioned?


.
 
Eccl12and13, that was very good. Dan. 9:24 was the closer for me a couple of years ago. It completely sums up the verses to follow. Once reading that verse word by word, for what it says without interjecting what I already thought it meant, there was no getting around it. :yes It continues to 'force' me reevaluate by end times beliefs.
 
Vic C. said:
Eccl12and13, that was very good. Dan. 9:24 was the closer for me a couple of years ago. It completely sums up the verses to follow. Once reading that verse word by word, for what it says without interjecting what I already thought it meant, there was no getting around it. :yes It continues to 'force' me reevaluate by end times beliefs.

I have a DVD study on the 70 weeks,
has anyone here studied the teachings entitled
Daniel's 70 weeks, by Dr. Chuck Missler ?

Here are some articles written by Dr, Chuck Missler on the subject:

http://www.khouse.org/sphider/search.php?query=70+weeks&search=1

.
 
Vic C. said:
Eccl12and13, that was very good. Dan. 9:24 was the closer for me a couple of years ago. It completely sums up the verses to follow. Once reading that verse word by word, for what it says without interjecting what I already thought it meant, there was no getting around it. :yes It continues to 'force' me reevaluate by end times beliefs.

Thanks, but as you know it is not me, but God's word. If everyone could do as you and just sit down and do their best to clear out what we have been taught and read God's word, word by word, and pray for widsom and understanding, we will be blessed.

I pray this lesson will be helpful for others.
 
Eccl12and13 said:
Now at what point was the antichrist ever mentioned? The only other person spoken of was, "the most Holy", which we know is Jesus Christ.

Now let's read what is to happen to the most Holy and see if we can apply it to ANY OTHER person;

Your first mistake is misapplying the "holy place" our Lord Jesus stated in Matt.24 as Himself! The place He was talking about was the inner sanctum of the temple, the holy of holies. Can it symbolically represent our LORD? In a way yes, as much as God conversed with His people there under the Old Covenant. However, in the context of what our Lord Jesus and His disciples on the Mount of Olives were pointing to, it is about the "holy place" inside a literal temple that was still standing then. Our Lord was specifically quoting from Daniel about the abomination that maketh desolate, idol worship inside the temple.

In Dan.11 is given a prophecy of the "vile person" placing the abomination that maketh desolate. And he also makes a "league", a covenant. That abomination is about the placing of idol worship inside the temple, and it is thus made desolate, like the pattern of Ezekiel 8 with false worship right inside the temple, in the "holy place" if you will. That's what Antiochus did in 170 B.C. But Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon of Jeremiah's day took Judah into the 70 years captivity, and did not place any abomination in the temple; instead he destroyed the temple, and Jerusalem, like the Roman general Titus did to the second temple in 70 A.D.

Who was it that made a covenant with Israel in the wilderness and will retrun to CONFIRM that same covenant?

Might want to rethink that, for what you're actually saying is that Christ was going to confirm the Old Covenant at His first coming! That's not the Covenant the OT prophets, including Jeremiah, were given to write about (Jer.31:31). When Christ was to come, it was about bringing His Kingdom under that "new covenant" of Jer.31. But what happenned?

The Jews rejected it and crucified Him, and the literal Kingdom or restoration of Israel under Christ has been in abeyance. It is now only manifested spiritually, but will one day be manifested literally on earth too, when Israel is restored back to their original inheritances (Ezek.48). Thus Christ was not confirming the Old Covenant to Israel there in Daniel 9. That's a huge mistake.

Moreover, the one of Dan.9:27 that confirms whatever kind of covenant that is, also breaks it in the middle of the 7 years "one week" period. But the main point is, if we think Christ was confirming the Old Covenant when He came to die on the cross, then the orthodox Jews who still hold to the Old Covenant today would be right. Christ came to bring a "new covenant" God declared through Jeremiah.
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Vet, you remind me a bit of myself. At first I fought this tooth and nail; I just didn't understand it at first.

You said:

Might want to rethink that, for what you're actually saying is that Christ was going to confirm the Old Covenant at His first coming! That's not the Covenant the OT prophets, including Jeremiah, were given to write about (Jer.31:31). When Christ was to come, it was about bringing His Kingdom under that "new covenant" of Jer.31. But what happenned?...

<snip for space>

... Moreover, the one of Dan.9:27 that confirms whatever kind of covenant that is, also breaks it in the middle of the 7 years "one week" period. But the main point is, if we think Christ was confirming the Old Covenant when He came to die on the cross, then the orthodox Jews who still hold to the Old Covenant today would be right. Christ came to bring a "new covenant" God declared through Jeremiah.
Not one person expounding this POV has ever referred to this being the Old Covenant. Jesus came to confirm a New Covenant with them. It began at His anointing (Mat 3:16) He made it clear to them here, 3 1/2 half years later:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Nowhere in Daniel does it say He broke it the Covenant; that is a preconceived idea based on the position you have been taught. If anything, they broke it as they have always done in the past.

Dan. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:...

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

His death caused all sacrifices to be null and void. Why? Well, as a Christian, the answer to that should be stone cold obvious.

You also said:

Your first mistake is misapplying the "holy place" our Lord Jesus stated in Matt.24 as Himself! The place He was talking about was the inner sanctum of the temple, the holy of holies.
I want to keep this on the up and up. Maybe I missed, but could you show us where the posted said Jesus was the Holy Place?
 
And just to follow up on what Vic C said, " If anything, they broke it as they have always done in the past.", Let's read a bit of what Paul wrote;

Heb.8
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

It was not the covenant that was at fault. The fault was "with them", the nation of Israel.

And as far as the Holy place being Jesus, that is not what was meant. The holy place is just that, the temple in Jerusalem. And there is no difference between the holy of holies vs. the temple itself. Just the fact that the man of sin is placed in the temple, speaking against the Most High is an abomination enough.

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Wow. You guys sure type a lot just to get your point across. I wonder who your trying to convince, everyone else or yourself? I do not mean for that to sound sarcastic, it is just an observation.

From my studies, I have come to believe that the Tribulation will be 7 years. Now you can believe the 3.5 year theory if you want, but either way there is no reason for any born again Christian to worry about how long it really is.

The Church (believers in Christ aka. born again Christians) will be taken up to Heaven in the event called the Rapture. Whether you believe in 7 years or 3.5 years.

Now if you believe in mid-trib or post-trib doctrine and do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, then this thread is for you.
 
If you are referring to me Michael, I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. What I am doing is testifying to those who once believed as I did. It's my way of letting them know that it has been shown to me that some of my well intended alleged convictions were not very convincing. Now, I can sit here and say like many others do and attribute all this to the Spirit; in actuality, the Spirit instilled upon me one piece of advice... "just read". :amen

So I put my blinders on and read, and read some more, and more. What I come to believe is an accumulation of that straight forward reading along with some purging of many of the End Times beliefs I have been spoon-fed through those who have set out to capitalize on God's word.

... and if there's one thing in Christianity that has become a pet peeve of mine, it is that capitalization. :mad

I am FAR from professing that I know it all but I truly believe that the little I have posted lines up with scripture. Outside of some beliefs from a couple of Reformed sources and a comparison of history to scripture, I have kept to the Bible. I see all of Daniel 9 in the OT, the Gospel books and in Acts. I look at first century history and can't ignore the fact that it lines up nice and tight.

Oh, so you know, I am not a Preterist. Outside of some of my end times beliefs, I hold pretty much to a traditional "protestant" belief" when it comes to the essentials. End Times is not essential to salvation.

Now if you believe in mid-trib or post-trib doctrine and do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, then this thread is for you.
Um, what exactly is that supposed to mean and how does it relate to this thread? :confused
 
Vic C. said:
Vet, you remind me a bit of myself. At first I fought this tooth and nail; I just didn't understand it at first.

Not one person expounding this POV has ever referred to this being the Old Covenant. Jesus came to confirm a New Covenant with them. It began at His anointing (Mat 3:16) He made it clear to them here, 3 1/2 half years later:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

If the New Covenant is meant, then who did Christ 'confirm' it with and then break it with them after 3.5 years? Do you not see the fallacy in that argument also?

There are those who argue in favour of both sides, some claiming the covenant of Dan.9:27 was the Old Covenant, their point being the word "confirm" only means strengthening an existing covenant, not making a new one. Then others favor that 'confirm' word to mean the New Covenant, the one of Dan.9:27 actually making a new covenant. And I mean there have been Bible scholars whose belief covers both sides of that fence.

Think about it. If the New Covenant, then who did Christ confirm it with, and then break it? None. And if the old covenant was being confirmed, then that would be the covenant Christ would have come to offer. But Christ Jesus didn't offer the old covenant, He offered the New Covenant of His Blood, like you showed. And He certainly didn't break it after any 1260 day period.

Neither fit the idea given in Dan.9:27 about the one who confirms a covenant for "one week" and then breaks it in the middle of the week. But the "vile person" of Dan.11 who makes a "league" and becomes strong with a small people, he also places the abomination that maketh desolate, which is the very subject of Dan.9:27. So it's big mistake to even point to that one of Dan.9:27 as being our Lord Jesus.

And I like your honesty Vic C., and agree strongly with you on the idea that we should listen to The LORD in His Word while being aware of men's traditions and doctrines. That's why Paul commended those at Berea, because they went to God's Word in checking out what Paul was preaching to them. That's all I'm asked others to do too.
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Thanks Vet; I appreciate your demeanor when discussing issues. :yes

If the New Covenant is meant, then who did Christ 'confirm' it with and then break it with them after 3.5 years? Do you not see the fallacy in that argument also?
First and foremost, He was sent to establish this covenant with the chosen ones of God.

If you take a moment and read what some of us have posted, we aren't saying He broke any covenant. The passage in question never mentions a breaking of a covenant. It says what it says:

"... and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,..."

We know from prophecy that one before Jesus would come to proclaim the Messiah. We know this person as John the Baptist.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Aah, the beginning of what was to become the age of this new covenant.

I have posted this many times in the past, but it is scattered in threads that are buried. A former member here, Jason, introduced us to a reformer's link that was big on the observations of one Sir Isaac Newton. It was enlightening and interesting, to say the least. Jason joked and said, "just as soon as you think you have it all figured out, someone like Newton comes along..." LOL!

So, here is an excerpt of Newton's observations from Daniel 9:

How after these weeks Christ was cut off, and the city and sanctuary destroyed by the Romans, is well known.

Yet shall he confirm the covenant with many for one week. He kept it, notwithstanding his death, till the rejection of the Jews, and calling of Cornelius and the Gentiles in the seventh year after his passion.

And in half a week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease; that is, by the war of the Romans upon the Jews: which war, after some commotions, began in the 13th year of Nero, A. D. 67, in the spring, when Vespasian, with an army invaded them; and ended in the second year of Vespasian, A. D. 70, in autumn, Sept. 7, when Titus took the city, having burnt the Temple 27 days before: so that it lasted three years and an half.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/commenta ... Revelation
 
Vic C. said:
I

I believe we have been in a period of Tribulation for some 2,000 years. History and some prophecies will repeat themselves. There will be a falling away. There is a falling away already. Eventually, an effort to exert a one world religion will result in someone claiming to be the "ruler" over all believers 2 Th 2:4

Agree that we have been in a period of tribulation already Vic. But I see it as man having been in it since shortly after God created him.

I believe that Revelation is an overview of man’s ongoing tribulation since his creation, with the climax, or "great tribulation," starting in the last 6-7 years prior to the end of the age and the anti Christ appearing on the scene midway through that time.

Here’s what I see:

The First Seal: was opened when Satan tempted Adam and Eve. Gen 3:1, Rev 6:2 (.... a rider ....conqueror bent on conquest)

The 2d, 3rd, and 4th seals were opened in quick succession right after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden; the actions of all 4 horses are ongoing till the end of the age. Gen 4:8; Gen 6:13, Gen 12:10; Gen 26:1, etc

Though the first 4 seals are opened in sequence, the rest of the seals are not. Therefore, the opening of the 7th seal came next.

The 7th seal: was opened when our Lord was born. The period that is called the “silence in heaven†(Rev 8:1) that follows the opening of this seal signifies God's Word residing among men on the earth.

The fire the angel hurled on the earth in Rev 8:5 signifies the cleansing from sin Christ executed on the Cross for all men, with the earthquake mentioned in that verse referring to the one that followed right after Christ’s crucifixion. Matt 27:51.

The 5th seal: was opened immediately following Christ’s resurrection, when the saints, those who were saved and had died prior to the cross and who were waiting under the altar (Rev 6:9-11), were given “white robes.â€

This signified the cleansing (Acts 11:9) Christ obtained for those saints (and all men) on the cross.

The 6th seal will be the last seal to be opened after the saints are caught away with the Lord. When the 6th seal is opened then God’s wrath will be poured out on the non-believing world.

Therefore, we are presently waiting for the continuing unfolding of the 7th seal with the sounding of the first trumpet spoken of in Rev Chap 8.

I believe the anti Christ will be fully revealed to the saints sometime after that and before the two witnesses appear. (Rev 11:3-6)

Sometime during the trumpets time line (possibly after the 3rd trumpet), the two witnesses will petition the anti-Christ to release God’s saints (just as Moses and Aaron petitioned Pharaoh), and after each denial the witnesses will afflict the nonbelievers with the plagues spoken of in Rev Chaps 8 and 9.

The two witnesses will be overpowered and killed sometime after the 6th trumpet/plague; then “after 3 1/2 days†(Rev 11:11-12) the 7th trumpet will sound and a “loud voice from heaven†will say to the two dead witnesses (and to all those saints who are “asleep in Christ) “Come up here.†This is the resurrection of the saints.

Then immediately after, those saints that are still alive will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. Right after (Rev 11:13) God’s wrath will be poured out on the un-believing world.

Satan will be bound while this is happening (Rev 20:2) and the saints will be with the Lord. (Rev 20:4) then.

After God’s wrath is poured out on the world, Satan is released, and he and his demons (accompanied by possibly the spirits of nonbelievers) fight against the Lord and His saints in the battle of Armageddon. (Rev 16:13-16, 20:7-10)

As you can see from the above, I believe the church will go through the tribulation climax or “great†tribulation that our Lord spoke of in Matt 24:21.

sonlite101
 
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