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The Trichotomous and Dichotomous View

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JLB

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And a study of the use in Scripture will show this is incorrect. Aion can't mean eternal and finite. That's a logical contradiction.

D-D-W pointed out that the dictionary isn't reliable. That can go for Bible dictionaries also.

Finite is not mentioned in the definition.


“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:18-19


Strong's G165 - aiōn


The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
  2. the worlds, universe
  3. period of time, age



JLB
 

Butch5

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How do you know what that meant to the ancients who wrote the scriptures? You are writing your own understanding into the texts.

I understand that our minds are so immersed in the movement of time it is difficult or even impossible to imagine another system. But from the biblical descriptions of God, it seems He and His dwelling place are independent of time.
I'm not writing my own understanding. I'm using the same words that the English translator are. They are the ones who are writing their understanding. Let me ask a question. How can something that ends be eternal?

But, were not talking about God and time, we're talking about time and eternity.
 
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Butch5

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Indeed. Most mainstream translations use translators from a variety of doctrinal stances to eliminate sectarian bias. That is not done so much on biblical dictionaries since they are not vetted before being published. So they frequently favor the bias of the editors of the dictionary.
I agree. We have the same issue with translations
 

Butch5

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Finite is not mentioned in the definition.






JLB
Exactly, Yet Jesus said the aion would end. That makes it finite. Also, Paul and the other apostles spoke of the end of the aion. How is something that ends eternal?
 

Butch5

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In Hebrew There are a couple of words that get translated as "eternity." One is olam (Ecc 3.11) and is an interesting word. By itself it seems to indicate the time and space continuum. But when coupled as "l'olam v'ed" it indicates eternity.

Another word is yom (Isa 43.13) which literally means "day." Not sure why the translators used eternity there.

The third Hebrew word for eternity is 'ad. (Isa 57.15) It literally means forever.
Bias.
 

JLB

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Exactly, Yet Jesus said the aion would end. That makes it finite. Also, Paul and the other apostles spoke of the end of the aion. How is something that ends eternal?

“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Acts 15:18

Butch if you want to claim eternity is not a biblical word, and interject your own definition to it, then that is your choice.

There is no mention of the word finite in this passage. Actually the context has nothing to do with what you are claiming.

This context and use of the word eternity has to do with a past that had no beginning.

As we all see, eternity is a biblical word, contrary to your claim.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15



JLB
 

Butch5

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“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Acts 15:18

Butch if you want to claim eternity is not a biblical word, and interject your own definition to it, then that is your choice.

There is no mention of the word finite in this passage. Actually the context has nothing to do with what you are claiming.

This context and use of the word eternity has to do with a past that had no beginning.

As we all see, eternity is a biblical word, contrary to your claim.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15



JLB
No, the translators put eternity there. Again, Jesus said the aion ends. How is something that ends eternal
 

wondering

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I think Dances with Gnostics in post 72 said some of what you are quoting.

eddif probably said the 2000 years ago. And in one sense I was aware of the 27? / 6? year difference. If we can dismiss 2000 years why argue over 27? / 6? . I have been lightly through the age discussion long years ago.

Consider Revelation 6:11
( if you do kjv)

eddif
Hi eddif
I'm a little lost because I haven't been following along very well.
You want me to read Revelation? Must I ? LOL
OK.
I read 6:11 in the KJV.
I never studied this book and I don't really know it well.

Robes will be given to the martyrs that followed Jesus.
What does that have to do with time?

As to the 6, I guess you mean the 6 days of creation.
I don't believe they're 6 actual days.
And what does the 27 days mean?
 

eddif

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Hi eddif
I'm a little lost because I haven't been following along very well.
You want me to read Revelation? Must I ? LOL
OK.
I read 6:11 in the KJV.
I never studied this book and I don't really know it well.

Robes will be given to the martyrs that followed Jesus.
What does that have to do with time?

As to the 6, I guess you mean the 6 days of creation.
I don't believe they're 6 actual days.
And what does the 27 days mean?
Load me up— probably like you feel loaded by me,
1. You thought I said something another person said. Not a problem
2. Time / timeline of resurrection events
IMHO in my humble opinion
There were Old Testament saints that followed God (not Jesus at the time of their death. When they died they went to Abraham’s bosom.
Break
Some people think that Jesus took them to heaven with Him as he ascended to heaven.
Break
I tend to believe the OT saints were preached to about the Gospel in Abraham’s bosom by Jesus. Those who heard and believed did not get a trip to heaven right then, but a garment (probably a spiritual symbolic robe) and awaited the final resurrection.
So
At the resurrection they and the later folks who had heard the gospel in their lifetime would basically go together to heaven.
Break
I have studied Revelation for years. I sound strange to myself at times. If you wish to not listen to me, don’t. I sure just try and supply what I see so others can look into things for themselves.

Sometimes all of us take a temporary diversion into another level.

A seed is the Word of God. The genetics of a seed are like scripture book to me. One written with genetic words the other with behavioral human words.

eddif
 

wondering

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Load me up— probably like you feel loaded by me,
1. You thought I said something another person said. Not a problem
2. Time / timeline of resurrection events
IMHO in my humble opinion
There were Old Testament saints that followed God (not Jesus at the time of their death. When they died they went to Abraham’s bosom.
Break
Some people think that Jesus took them to heaven with Him as he ascended to heaven.
Break
I tend to believe the OT saints were preached to about the Gospel in Abraham’s bosom by Jesus. Those who heard and believed did not get a trip to heaven right then, but a garment (probably a spiritual symbolic robe) and awaited the final resurrection.
So
At the resurrection they and the later folks who had heard the gospel in their lifetime would basically go together to heaven.
Break
I have studied Revelation for years. I sound strange to myself at times. If you wish to not listen to me, don’t. I sure just try and supply what I see so others can look into things for themselves.

Sometimes all of us take a temporary diversion into another level.

A seed is the Word of God. The genetics of a seed are like scripture book to me. One written with genetic words the other with behavioral human words.

eddif
Hi eddif
I prefer the Word of God.
But it's good to read the books about Him too.
It was the Word that was with God from the beginning that spoke to me when I needed the speaking. The scriptures made me know Him better.

Jesus said He will judge.
Can we be sure of when?
So your scenario is fine with me, although I tend to believe we go where we belong at death.
But then, why the judging at the end of time?

I trust and am not adamant about everything - except I am sure that God loves His creatures and desires their salvation. If they want it.

I've always listened to you and enjoyed your posts.
 

eddif

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Hi eddif
I prefer the Word of God.
But it's good to read the books about Him too.
It was the Word that was with God from the beginning that spoke to me when I needed the speaking. The scriptures made me know Him better.

Jesus said He will judge.
Can we be sure of when?
So your scenario is fine with me, although I tend to believe we go where we belong at death.
But then, why the judging at the end of time?

I trust and am not adamant about everything - except I am sure that God loves His creatures and desires their salvation. If they want it.

I've always listened to you and enjoyed your posts.
Wow
 

eddif

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Hi eddif
I prefer the Word of God.
But it's good to read the books about Him too.
It was the Word that was with God from the beginning that spoke to me when I needed the speaking. The scriptures made me know Him better.

Jesus said He will judge.
Can we be sure of when?
So your scenario is fine with me, although I tend to believe we go where we belong at death.
But then, why the judging at the end of time?

I trust and am not adamant about everything - except I am sure that God loves His creatures and desires their salvation. If they want it.

I've always listened to you and enjoyed your posts.
John 1:14 kjv
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 15:45 kjv
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Acts 17:10 kjv
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I really left you to check out my IMHO statements:
From creation: biology books
From Google search
From the word of God
From the words of Jesus (word made Flesh)
By the Holy Spirit (Jesus the quickening spirit within your heart)

What if:
you search first
You get what you get
We search all the above as He Leads
We compare notes
You outgrow my simple statements
And if you can not seem to find the scripture I am basing the IMHO on I will state it.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 

eddif

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What does that have to do with time?
Revelation 6:9 kjv
9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Verse 9 talks about those buried under the altar.
If you think literally you might ask why are they buried under an altar,
……
If you look for a time in verse 9 you get:sad time wise)
The time under the law of Moses
It mentions souls
It mentions word of God and not Jesus


They were waiting till New Testament saints would be killed.

eddif
 

wondering

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John 1:14 kjv
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 15:45 kjv
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Acts 17:10 kjv
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I really left you to check out my IMHO statements:
From creation: biology books
From Google search
From the word of God
From the words of Jesus (word made Flesh)
By the Holy Spirit (Jesus the quickening spirit within your heart)

What if:
you search first
You get what you get
We search all the above as He Leads
We compare notes
You outgrow my simple statements
And if you can not seem to find the scripture I am basing the IMHO on I will state it.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
I believe this was your IMHO:

IMHO in my humble opinion
There were Old Testament saints that followed God (not Jesus at the time of their death. When they died they went to Abraham’s bosom.
Break
Some people think that Jesus took them to heaven with Him as he ascended to heaven.
Break
I tend to believe the OT saints were preached to about the Gospel in Abraham’s bosom by Jesus. Those who heard and believed did not get a trip to heaven right then, but a garment (probably a spiritual symbolic robe) and awaited the final resurrection.
So
At the resurrection they and the later folks who had heard the gospel in their lifetime would basically go together to heaven.
Break
I have studied Revelation for years. I sound strange to myself at times. If you wish to not listen to me, don’t. I sure just try and supply what I see so others can look into things for themselves.


Noah comes into the picture too.
It's very late here...
I'll get into this tomorrow.
'night
 

for_his_glory

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"the harrowing of hell".
The harrowing of hell comes from the fictional narrative of the Gospel of Nicodemus, know as the Acts of Pilate. Followers of Gnostic's teach from this book and comes against Biblical principles found in the Bible.

May I ask if you are Gnostic in your beliefs?
 

for_his_glory

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These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The description of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arrayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.
 

eddif

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These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.


The description of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arrayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment and be remembered no more by God, John 5:28, 29.

Darkness (lake of fire) and light (the New Jerusalem) are separate from each other as no one in either place can see each other. All former things are passed away and we will not have any recognition of things of this present earth including family and friends that rejected Christ and will be in a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth as they are cast into the lake of fire, Isaiah 65:17-25; Rev 21:1-8, Matthew 8:12; 22:13; Luke 20:34-38.
Ok here we go (I hope)
A lot of the activity on this site is involved with Covid - the battle of the opposites.

I do not want to battle here. What i would love to do is discuss all this without side notes from a commentary. You will have to watch me, because I will tend to want to force my thoughts ( probably the same as a commentary?).

I want to use the rule of parables on every parable.

The rule is simple. The parable of the sower. Each physical item in each parable needs to be raised to its highest spiritual understanding. We take breaks as needed to keep from fighting.

At least 5? posters need to be involved at any time ( I have a scripture in mind for a number).

Phrases like:
half dead
Oil
Wine
Garments
Have to be raised to higher meanings. Seed = word. Ground = men’s hearts

What do you think. Please no two page quote from a commentary LOL

eddif
 

for_his_glory

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Ok here we go (I hope)
A lot of the activity on this site is involved with Covid - the battle of the opposites.

I do not want to battle here. What i would love to do is discuss all this without side notes from a commentary. You will have to watch me, because I will tend to want to force my thoughts ( probably the same as a commentary?).

I want to use the rule of parables on every parable.

The rule is simple. The parable of the sower. Each physical item in each parable needs to be raised to its highest spiritual understanding. We take breaks as needed to keep from fighting.

At least 5? posters need to be involved at any time ( I have a scripture in mind for a number).

Phrases like:
half dead
Oil
Wine
Garments
Have to be raised to higher meanings. Seed = word. Ground = men’s hearts

What do you think. Please no two page quote from a commentary LOL

eddif
There should never be a battle of the opposites, but to only discuss that which we do not agree on. If everyone would adhere to the ToS 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5 then will there be unity among the Brethren even in disagreements.

Trichotomous and dichotomous is no different then pinning one religion against another as it always causes divisions. Commentaries will always be used as even what I give are from my own commentaries of what I have studied, but it's up to each one of us to make sure they line up with scripture.

I believe the subject of this thread is body, soul and spirit, but everyone is all over the place straying somewhat from the topic.

I only gave my understanding of the parable about the rich man and Lazarus to show that it is a parable and not a literal event that really happened. Jesus used many illustrations in making the points in His teachings.

So much of this thread is over my head when it comes to Greek over Hebrew and really did not want to get involved with it. I'm just a simple country girl with hopefully simple understandings.
 

eddif

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There should never be a battle of the opposites, but to only discuss that which we do not agree on. If everyone would adhere to the ToS 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5 then will there be unity among the Brethren even in disagreements.

Trichotomous and dichotomous is no different then pinning one religion against another as it always causes divisions. Commentaries will always be used as even what I give are from my own commentaries of what I have studied, but it's up to each one of us to make sure they line up with scripture.

I believe the subject of this thread is body, soul and spirit, but everyone is all over the place straying somewhat from the topic.

I only gave my understanding of the parable about the rich man and Lazarus to show that it is a parable and not a literal event that really happened. Jesus used many illustrations in making the points in His teachings.

So much of this thread is over my head when it comes to Greek over Hebrew and really did not want to get involved with it. I'm just a simple country girl with hopefully simple understandings.
Well I quit my Greek class and never started Hebrew. As an Administrator I suppose you can see all the deleted posts in this thread. Sometimes I can pull up some deleted things, other times I am in the dark.

You can possibly decide if dealing with this is worth the effort.
Whst I believe: I reckon
We start out having two parts - with a eternal rider clause (heaven or hell)

The two part man can add the spirit of God in the new birth. At that point a three part man exists.
Fancy seminary words I ain’t got. The quickening spirit Jesus became is not talked about much.

I do not expect to get past through through a glass darkly. What I hope to accomplish is understand more. Seeing the hidden man of the heart in symbolism was one of those things. But I have found out it is not in everyone’s vision capability. I have a red blind spot in one eye. Now that is physical, but I can deduct I have spiritual blind spots from that.

PaRDeS is Jewish. And I tend toward giving it some value. It is similar to understanding parables. It raises the level of simple things of creation to a higher level. Metaphysical is just beyond the physical,

Some things Jesus said are parables. Some things Jesus said to the disciples do not have to be raised to a higher level (they are already on a higher level), Matthew 5-7 are not your usual Old Testament subjects. A few times Jesus shared the meaning of parables.

Enough for now. Everyone tends to have things to do. We will see what develops

eddif
 
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