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The Trichotomous and Dichotomous View

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D-D-W said:
I have a problem with your "until Jesus was raised from the dead." It is the same problem I have with the concept of "soul sleep;" namely, it is tying eternity into our timeline. Eternity exists outside of time; so statements of "until" a certain event happens in our time line are meaningless. In eternity where God is, the past and the future can be seen simultaneously.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

Psalm 41:13
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen.
Click to expand...
I agree with your other post that I "liked".
Also, yes, God is outside of time, but we aren't.
Is it wrong to say that Jesus was born 2,000 years ago?
Mankind needs a timeline.

If you believe Luke 15 as NOT being a parable...
then why would you not believe that no one went to heaven until the sacrifice of Jesus?

What does this verse mean to you?
Matthew 27:51-52
51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

51 The veil of the temple was torn... 52 the tombs opened and bodies were released.

It's a generally accepted teaching in Christianity that those that belonged in heaven went to a resting place till the sacrifice was completed.
That would be in agreement with Luke 15, which I agree is not a parable.
Those that did not have faith in God went to where they belonged.
 
wondering said:
I agree with your other post that I "liked".
Also, yes, God is outside of time, but we aren't.
Is it wrong to say that Jesus was born 2,000 years ago?
Mankind needs a timeline.

If you believe Luke 15 as NOT being a parable...
then why would you not believe that no one went to heaven until the sacrifice of Jesus?

What does this verse mean to you?
Matthew 27:51-52
51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

51 The veil of the temple was torn... 52 the tombs opened and bodies were released.

It's a generally accepted teaching in Christianity that those that belonged in heaven went to a resting place till the sacrifice was completed.
That would be in agreement with Luke 15, which I agree is not a parable.
Those that did not have faith in God went to where they belonged.
Click to expand...
I think Dances with Gnostics in post 72 said some of what you are quoting.

eddif probably said the 2000 years ago. And in one sense I was aware of the 27? / 6? year difference. If we can dismiss 2000 years why argue over 27? / 6? . I have been lightly through the age discussion long years ago.

Consider Revelation 6:11
( if you do kjv)

eddif
 
Butch5 said:
In the dictionary.
Click to expand...
Was this a Bible dictionary?

Time depends on the solar system. Day 4 of creation. (Sun Moon).

When the stars fall from heaven time ends.

Day 1, 2, 3 are undefined as to length.

Day 5,6,7, are our 24 hour days.

I think this is some sort of redneck reading of the Bible. Sure hope it are right.

eddif
 
eddif said:
Was this a Bible dictionary?

Time depends on the solar system. Day 4 of creation. (Sun Moon).

When the stars fall from heaven time ends.

Day 1, 2, 3 are undefined as to length.

Day 5,6,7, are our 24 hour days.

I think this is some sort of redneck reading of the Bible. Sure hope it are right.

eddif
Click to expand...
Eternity isn't a Biblical word. It's a wird we use all the time. So, it's a regular dictionary.
 
Mar 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

This passage denotes PERPETUITY. In all our looking at AIONIAN time - unto ages of ages, etc. - there are descriptions like "dieth not" "never shall be quenched" which we cannot dismiss. I HOPE there is no PERPETUITY involved in hell - but I dunno.
 
I don't believe in Soul Sleep.
I don't care if the account in Luke 16 about rich man, Beggar Lazarus and Abraham is a PARABLE OR NOT - the point is Jesus wouldn't portray the afterlife in a false manner.
At His time - there was a gulf/barrier between Abraham's Bosom and Tartarus/Torments.
I believe Jesus after resurrection took the Abe's Bosom people to Heaven - and the bad guys were left in Tophet/Hades/Hell/Gehenna/Tartarus. Such has been called THE HARROWING OF HELL.
 
Mat 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"till thou hast paid" does not connote perpetuity

"beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes" does not either - and insinuates differing terms of punishment
 
Luk 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
Mar 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

This passage denotes PERPETUITY. In all our looking at AIONIAN time - unto ages of ages, etc. - there are descriptions like "dieth not" "never shall be quenched" which we cannot dismiss. I HOPE there is no PERPETUITY involved in hell - but I dunno.
Click to expand...
In that passage Jesus is alluding to Isaiah 66. If you read the passage you'll see that what's burning there are corpses, not disembodied beings. Corpses are dead people. However, we know that Gehenna doesn't burn forever because Jeremiah prophesied that one day it will, once again, be made Holy to the Lord.
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
I don't believe in Soul Sleep.
I don't care if the account in Luke 16 about rich man, Beggar Lazarus and Abraham is a PARABLE OR NOT - the point is Jesus wouldn't portray the afterlife in a false manner.
At His time - there was a gulf/barrier between Abraham's Bosom and Tartarus/Torments.
I believe Jesus after resurrection took the Abe's Bosom people to Heaven - and the bad guys were left in Tophet/Hades/Hell/Gehenna/Tartarus. Such has been called THE HARROWING OF HELL.
Click to expand...
Indont believe in soul sleep either. However, it seems to me you're assuming an afterlife other than the Resurrection. But, there's nothing in Scripture that would support that.

You said you believe Jesus took everyone in Abraham's bosom to Heaven. Where do you find this teaching that people go to Heaven?
 
Butch5 said:
Eternity isn't a Biblical word. It's a word we use all the time. So, it's a regular dictionary.
Click to expand...
As a general rule, NEVER use a standard dictionary to try to understand biblical concepts. Our 21st century ideas and those of the first century (NT) or a thousand years earlier are worlds apart.
 
Butch5 said:
Eternity isn't a Biblical word. It's a wird we use all the time. So, it's a regular dictionary.
Click to expand...

“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:18-19


Strong's G165 - aiōn​


The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
  2. the worlds, universe
  3. period of time, age
 
D-D-W said:
As a general rule, NEVER use a standard dictionary to try to understand biblical concepts. Our 21st century ideas and those of the first century (NT) or a thousand years earlier are worlds apart.
Click to expand...
They are worlds apart. However, we speak modern English. Our translations are in modern English. Thus, modern translators have used modern language to give us our translations.

Again, how can eternity be outside of time when eternity means unending time?
 
JLB said:
“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:18-19


Strong's G165 - aiōn​


The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
  2. the worlds, universe
  3. period of time, age
Click to expand...
And a study of the use in Scripture will show this is incorrect. Aion can't mean eternal and finite. That's a logical contradiction.

D-D-W pointed out that the dictionary isn't reliable. That can go for Bible dictionaries also.
 
In Hebrew There are a couple of words that get translated as "eternity." One is olam (Ecc 3.11) and is an interesting word. By itself it seems to indicate the time and space continuum. But when coupled as "l'olam v'ed" it indicates eternity.

Another word is yom (Isa 43.13) which literally means "day." Not sure why the translators used eternity there.

The third Hebrew word for eternity is 'ad. (Isa 57.15) It literally means forever.
 
Butch5 said:
Again, how can eternity be outside of time when eternity means unending time?
Click to expand...
How do you know what that meant to the ancients who wrote the scriptures? You are writing your own understanding into the texts.

I understand that our minds are so immersed in the movement of time it is difficult or even impossible to imagine another system. But from the biblical descriptions of God, it seems He and His dwelling place are independent of time.
 
Butch5 said:
D-D-W pointed out that the dictionary isn't reliable. That can go for Bible dictionaries also.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Most mainstream translations use translators from a variety of doctrinal stances to eliminate sectarian bias. That is not done so much on biblical dictionaries since they are not vetted before being published. So they frequently favor the bias of the editors of the dictionary.
 
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