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The Trinity: A Third Point of View

watchman F said:
Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.
It makes it easy when we can categorize people. However, each human being believes what he or she believes. Here is what I believe:

There is one God. I call him “Father.â€

Father decided he needed to come to earth in the form of a human being to teach us and die on the cross. He became Jesus, but was still Father. He is omnipotent and was able to do both things at the same time.

Father speaks directly to us, in his special way. When he does so, he is the Holy Spirit.
 
elijah23 said:
watchman F said:
Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.
It makes it easy when we can categorize people. However, each human being believes what he or she believes. Here is what I believe:

There is one God. I call him “Father.â€

Father decided he needed to come to earth in the form of a human being to teach us and die on the cross. He became Jesus, but was still Father. He is omnipotent and was able to do both things at the same time.

Father speaks directly to us, in his special way. When he does so, he is the Holy Spirit.
Elijah, I agree with you 100% That is exactly how I see it and you understanding of the Godhead can be supported by scripture. you will have many call you heretic because you do not bow to their beliefs, but I say stand strong in what scripture and God has revealed to you.
 
watchman F said:
Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.
I'm with you on this one. Where modalism errs is believing the modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.
 
glorydaz said:
watchman F said:
Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.
I'm with you on this one. Where modalism errs is believing the modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.



hmmm --- who did Jesus pray too then ?
 
frying-pan-addict said:
#2 can be linked with the "Jesus Only" Movement or Oneness Pentecostals. Supposably a man had a vision that Jesus was also the Father and the Holy Spirit. People had to be re-baptized in the name of "Jesus-only" in order to be saved.

I disagree with this viewpoint/movement because we can look at the early church and a similar event took place. I believe it's called Sabellianism or Modelism. The man was condemned as a heretic. hundreds of years later people fall for the same "idea" that hey, maybe The Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all the same person... manifested in three different ways... Sadly it was condemned by the early church as heresy and people ought to learn the past so that we are not doomed to repeat it.
There is a difference in the Oneness belief and modalism. Modalist believe that God was the Father before incarnation, was the Son during the incarnation, and that He is now the Holy Spirit. Oneness believe the Father has always been the Holy Spirit, and that He remained the Father while also becoming a man here on Earth. There is a difference.
 
Mysteryman said:
glorydaz said:
watchman F said:
Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.
I'm with you on this one. Where modalism errs is believing the modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.



hmmm --- who did Jesus pray too then ?
That question really needs not to be answered everyone on every side of this issue knows exactly who Jesus prayed to.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


He prayed to the One and only true God, the Father.
 
handy said:
A good question, MM. :yes
It is only a good question if you are 5 and never heard of the idea that Jesus himself was God before. Other than that it is a snide, rhetorical, argumentitive question meant only to cause division.
 
handy said:
From that POV, can you explain what was heard and seen during Jesus's baptism?
Sure no problem the man God became Jesus was baptized, the Father from Heaven sent to Him His Spirit, while proclaiming that Jesus was His beloved son.
 
Free said:
But #2 isn't the Trinity, it's Modalism. You do not believe in the Trinity.
I’m a little uncomfortable putting a label on myself without thoroughly studying what that label means. Again, here is what I believe:

There is one God. I call him “Father.â€

Father decided he needed to come to earth in the form of a human being to teach us and die on the cross. He became Jesus, but was still Father. He is omnipotent and was able to do both things at the same time.

Father speaks directly to us, in his special way. When he does so, he is the Holy Spirit.
 
handy said:
From that POV, can you explain what was heard and seen during Jesus's baptism?

Hi handy,

You probably weren't addressing me, but I'd like to respond to this great question of yours.

We saw God in all His glory... manifest as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all at the same time. One God.

It's actually the perfect picture of how we're made in God's image....with a spirit, soul, and body.
Where God is so much greater than we are, He is still one just as we are. Wherever the Son was the Father and Spirit were with Him...God cannot be separate from Himself. The Holy Spirit is God in us and Christ in us. Personally, I believe God is more than we can fully comprehend with our human understanding. One thing we should all be able to agree on is the fact that there is only ONE GOD.
 
Mysteryman said:
glorydaz said:
I'm with you on this one. Where modalism errs is believing the modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.



hmmm --- who did Jesus pray too then ?

The modalists are wrong.

Jesus is God in the flesh...he was fully human while still being fully divine.
Jesus, in His human nature, prayed to the Father.
 
watchman F said:
Elijah, I agree with you 100% That is exactly how I see it and you understanding of the Godhead can be supported by scripture. you will have many call you heretic because you do not bow to their beliefs, but I say stand strong in what scripture and God has revealed to you.
Thanks.
 
watchman F said:
That question really needs not to be answered everyone on every side of this issue knows exactly who Jesus prayed to.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


He prayed to the One and only true God, the Father.
There is only one God. The Word was God from the beginning. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word is Jesus Christ. He is the Creator of all things...since He is God (come in the flesh).
 
watchman F said:
mjjcb, sorry if I had misunderstood anything you have posted, honestly

Thanks, but not a problem at all. :)

Feel free to let me know if I ever misrepresent you as well. :salute
 
glorydaz said:
watchman F said:
That question really needs not to be answered everyone on every side of this issue knows exactly who Jesus prayed to.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


He prayed to the One and only true God, the Father.
There is only one God. The Word was God from the beginning. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word is Jesus Christ. He is the Creator of all things...since He is God (come in the flesh).
I have no qualms with you understanding of the divinity of Jesus. However when answering MM childish question of who then was Jesus praying to the answer would be the Father whom Jesus says Himself in verse 3 of John 17 is the only true God. Now as far as your statement that Jesus is God become flesh I agree 100%
 
glorydaz said:
Mysteryman said:
glorydaz said:
I'm with you on this one. Where modalism errs is believing the modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.



hmmm --- who did Jesus pray too then ?

The modalists are wrong.

Jesus is God in the flesh...he was fully human while still being fully divine.
Jesus, in His human nature, prayed to the Father.
Exactly they try to pigeon hole us as modalist, but I agree with you the modalist were wrong. I also agree with you statement about Jesus praying to the Father.
 
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