The Trinity: A Third Point of View

[glorydaz]

I have no qualms with you understanding of the divinity of Jesus. However when answering MM childish question of who then was Jesus praying to the answer would be the Father whom Jesus says Himself in verse 3 of John 17 is the only true God. Now as far as your statement that Jesus is God become flesh I agree 100%

I think that's what I said, isn't it?

"Jesus is God in the flesh...he was fully human while still being fully divine.
Jesus, in His human nature, prayed to the Father."

Am I not understanding what you're saying here?

 

[watchman F]

I have no qualms with you understanding of the divinity of Jesus. However when answering MM childish question of who then was Jesus praying to the answer would be the Father whom Jesus says Himself in verse 3 of John 17 is the only true God. Now as far as your statement that Jesus is God become flesh I agree 100%

I think that's what I said, isn't it?

"Jesus is God in the flesh...he was fully human while still being fully divine.
Jesus, in His human nature, prayed to the Father."

Am I not understanding what you're saying here?

I think you are understanding me, I agree with your assessment.

 

[Mike]

I am a United Methodist. The Trinity is not a topic that comes up much in discussions we have, but apparently our church believes in the second view I mentioned. I have no problem with that. I certainly do not believe in #3.

I didn’t know this was such a controversial subject until I joined a Christian forum. I always accepted the Trinity and was surprised to find so many people so passionately deny there is a Trinity.

But it was only recently that I discovered that there are two groups of people who do believe in a Trinity, views #2 and #3 that I mentioned.

By the way, what is your fourth view?

Elijah, it's interesting that my experience was completely opposite. I grew up believing in the Trinity and was surprised when I first heard that some Christians didn't hold that same belief. It was just foreign to me.

(Mysterman will breath a sigh of relief with this statement ;) ) I believe the Trinity is so complex, it's hard if not impossible to fully grasp it. That said, I don't believe it is essential, providing we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm being short and sort of simplistic, but I don't want to get wordy here. This shouldn't be argumentative within the body to the point that people reject others who don't share their understanding.

For those that hold that Jesus is God the Father who is the Holy Spirit who became flesh, what could be made of John 1? It says the Word (Jesus) was WITH God.
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

 

[watchman F]

I am a United Methodist. The Trinity is not a topic that comes up much in discussions we have, but apparently our church believes in the second view I mentioned. I have no problem with that. I certainly do not believe in #3.

I didn’t know this was such a controversial subject until I joined a Christian forum. I always accepted the Trinity and was surprised to find so many people so passionately deny there is a Trinity.

But it was only recently that I discovered that there are two groups of people who do believe in a Trinity, views #2 and #3 that I mentioned.

By the way, what is your fourth view?

Elijah, it's interesting that my experience was completely opposite. I grew up believing in the Trinity and was surprised when I first heard that some Christians didn't hold that same belief. It was just foreign to me.

(Mysterman will breath a sigh of relief with this statement ;) ) I believe the Trinity is so complex, it's hard if not impossible to fully grasp it. That said, I don't believe it is essential, providing we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm being short and sort of simplistic, but I don't want to get wordy here. This shouldn't be argumentative within the body to the point that people reject others who don't share their understanding.

For those that hold that Jesus is God the Father who is the Holy Spirit who became flesh, what could be made of John 1? It says the Word (Jesus) was WITH God.
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

The thing is we could go back and forth all day giving proof text that discredit each others beliefs. Even the text you gave, even the verse you gave says the word was God, and Jesus says that the Father is the only true God. So now we are left in a conundrum. Which is it was the word God or with God. There is a teaching (not one I hold to) that it was just the word of God that became flesh and not actually God. They use the text you have given to prove this. What we should do is take the whole of scripture and let it interpret itself rather than trying to corner each other with isolated verses. It is my understanding that it waas God Himself the Father than manifest Himself as the son here on Earth and I can give multiple passages to back that belief up including 1st Timothy 3:16

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You also have Jesus' own declaration in John 14:7-9 that not only was He God, not only was He one with the Father , but that He himself was the Father.
John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

My point is here that one verse does not in any way negate 10 other verse to back up what someone else believes, and you might be able to come up with 5 more to support your believe. However if we go back to your original statement that God is more complex than any of us can truly grasp, and that we all believe that Jesus is God, and that there is but One God then we are not really is disagreement. Are we?

 

[VertigoAge]

I believe the Trinity is so complex, it's hard if not impossible to fully grasp it. That said, I don't believe it is essential, providing we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I was going to post my opinion, but you pretty much summed it up here. It's too complex to fully understand, and any analogy that we use falls short. However, we don't need to understand how three can be one. We just need to understand the three and take it on faith that they are also one.

 

[handy]

Yeah, when you think about it, trying to comprehend things like Trinity or Oneness is trying to comprehend God Himself.

If you can do that you're a smarter bear than I.

Makes for interesting discussion though. However, in all the discussions, debates and downright donneybrooks over the issue of the Trinity I've yet to discover a better way to describe Father, Son and Spirit.

 

[elijah23]

Elijah, it's interesting that my experience was completely opposite. I grew up believing in the Trinity and was surprised when I first heard that some Christians didn't hold that same belief. It was just foreign to me.

(Mysterman will breath a sigh of relief with this statement ;) ) I believe the Trinity is so complex, it's hard if not impossible to fully grasp it. That said, I don't believe it is essential, providing we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm being short and sort of simplistic, but I don't want to get wordy here. This shouldn't be argumentative within the body to the point that people reject others who don't share their understanding.

For those that hold that Jesus is God the Father who is the Holy Spirit who became flesh, what could be made of John 1? It says the Word (Jesus) was WITH God.
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

Yes, I think it would be good if we could all get along with each other, even if we don’t agree on this issue.

 

[Mike]

Not to get off topic, but this is similar to other major sources of discussion that can turn into argument when it doesn't need to be, because I don't believe they are salvation issues. Aside from never having heard of any Christian understanding other than the Trinity, I never heard of pre-trib or post-trib growing up. Yeah, I was living in my own world, but as a child, you're only exposed to so much. I grew up Catholic, and my wife & family changed to the Lutheran Church. I was in my teens before I ever heard the word "trib"-anything. I was like, "wha?... What are you talking about???"

Here we have pre-trib and post-trib members who are very convicted in their understanding. As an amillenneist, I stay my course, but I don't try to persuade anyone of it. At least I don't think I do.

Sorry! totopic

Mike :robinhood

 

[ProphetMark]

Wherever the Son was the Father and Spirit were with Him...God cannot be separate from Himself.

What about when he was dead? Did the Father, son and holy spirit all die, and all preach to the spirits of the people who died in the flood? Wouldn't at least one of the 3 need to be alive to raise Jesus from the dead?

 

[elijah23]

Not to get off topic, but this is similar to other major sources of discussion that can turn into argument when it doesn't need to be, because I don't believe they are salvation issues. Aside from never having heard of any Christian understanding other than the Trinity, I never heard of pre-trib or post-trib growing up. Yeah, I was living in my own world, but as a child, you're only exposed to so much. I grew up Catholic, and my wife & family changed to the Lutheran Church. I was in my teens before I ever heard the word "trib"-anything. I was like, "wha?... What are you talking about???"

Here we have pre-trib and post-trib members who are very convicted in their understanding. As an amillenneist, I stay my course, but I don't try to persuade anyone of it. At least I don't think I do.

Sorry! totopic

Mike :robinhood

I also run into “strange†words I am unfamiliar with.

 

[watchman F]

Not to get off topic, but this is similar to other major sources of discussion that can turn into argument when it doesn't need to be, because I don't believe they are salvation issues. Aside from never having heard of any Christian understanding other than the Trinity, I never heard of pre-trib or post-trib growing up. Yeah, I was living in my own world, but as a child, you're only exposed to so much. I grew up Catholic, and my wife & family changed to the Lutheran Church. I was in my teens before I ever heard the word "trib"-anything. I was like, "wha?... What are you talking about???"

Here we have pre-trib and post-trib members who are very convicted in their understanding. As an amillenneist, I stay my course, but I don't try to persuade anyone of it. At least I don't think I do.

Sorry! totopic

Mike :robinhood

I was brought up as a pre trib, trinitarian, and knew nothing else, until I got saved and started studying my Bible for myself. Now from the words in scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit I am a post trib, Oneness believer.

 

[Vic C.]

Since I am a bit familiar with the teachings of the Wesley brothers and Adam Clarke, I'd like to clarify something for Elijah:

The United Methodist Church is a Trinity-based congregation, they believe, as a whole, in a triune God.

... There is a huge difference between #2 and #3.

#2 states that there is ONE Lord who has the responsibility of being three things at once—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

#3 states there are THREE beings who are united and together are Lord.

My church teaches #2.

As I said above, they teach #3.



Handy asked a question before that no one directly addressed. It was in reference to this passage:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is a perfect example of all three co-existing and appearing simultaneously. This passage presents a problem for both Oneness and Modalism. It can't be explained away without some sort of rationalizing.

 

[watchman F]

Handy asked a question before that no one directly addressed. It was in reference to this passage:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is a perfect example of all three co-existing and appearing simultaneously. This passage presents a problem for both Oneness and Modalism. It can't be explained away without some sort of rationalizing.

Actually I did answer that question directly, and I believe glorydaz addressed it as well.

Here was my response

Sure no problem the man God became Jesus was baptized, the Father from Heaven sent to Him His Spirit, while proclaiming that Jesus was His beloved Son.

 

[glorydaz]

Wherever the Son was the Father and Spirit were with Him...God cannot be separate from Himself.

What about when he was dead? Did the Father, son and holy spirit all die, and all preach to the spirits of the people who died in the flood? Wouldn't at least one of the 3 need to be alive to raise Jesus from the dead?

Jesus was fully God and fully man, and it was only his physical tent...his body of flesh, that died.

It was in His body, He bore our sins on the tree. He went to preach to the souls in Hades/Sheol, and speaking of His death and resurrection, we see He was "straightway" glorified. Returned to his former glory. Glorified in Himself.

If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Here Jesus is speaking of His return to his former glory...when He puts off His human flesh.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus, when speaking of His body, said, "I will raise it up."
He was God so He was only speaking the truth.
There is only one God and the grave could not hold Him.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Here we see Christ is able to subdue all things unto HIMSELF.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And to reconcile all things unto HIMSELF.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, when you think about it, trying to comprehend things like Trinity or Oneness is trying to comprehend God Himself.

If you can do that you're a smarter bear than I.

Makes for interesting discussion though. However, in all the discussions, debates and downright donneybrooks over the issue of the Trinity I've yet to discover a better way to describe Father, Son and Spirit.

I think the mistake is in calling God three "persons". Our human mind automatically sees three individuals. Once we "see" One God as three individuals, it's really hard to see "them" as ONE. Thus many, without realizing it, are unable to see "them" as equal. Many assume "the Father" is the one true God, and Jesus, whether they admit it or not, is a lesser God, always in "submission" to the Father. That's bad. Jesus, in his humanity, was in subjection to the Father. But He was the Creator at the same time.

I believe the names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to show us the "roles" of God. The work of the cross was done by Jesus (Son) just as we are called sons. He did the work for us. But He's also the Word, which was God from the Beginning. He's also the right arm of God, The Redeemer of God. He was God with us. The Spirit moved across the water, and is the breath of God, the Comforter of God, the indwelling God.

Anyway, I agree, there is no more interesting subject than God. Still and all, there is only One God, and I believe it's crucial we don't see three "persons" as though God can ever be separated from Himself.

 

[glorydaz]

Handy asked a question before that no one directly addressed. It was in reference to this passage:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is a perfect example of all three co-existing and appearing simultaneously. This passage presents a problem for both Oneness and Modalism. It can't be explained away without some sort of rationalizing.

Really? I think it gives a perfect picture of the Oneness of God. We would have to see with our human understanding to see three "persons" here. I rather see how each one of us is made in the image of God...body, soul, and spirit. We are rather lacking in comparison to God, but we're merely the creation, not the God of glory.

We hear the voice of God coming down from Heaven, annointing His own flesh with His Spirit of power...descending like a dove. Beautiful.

God is amazing....His Word became flesh and dwelt among us...His Spirit indwells us.

Christ was with God and Is God..He is "God with us"....in the very bosom of God...is the right hand of God...the Redeemer and Creator....the Righteousness of God.

This has got to be my favorite verse about God. The Son is the Mighty God. (His NAME.)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Mysteryman]

Handy asked a question before that no one directly addressed. It was in reference to this passage:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is a perfect example of all three co-existing and appearing simultaneously. This passage presents a problem for both Oneness and Modalism. It can't be explained away without some sort of rationalizing.

Really? I think it gives a perfect picture of the Oneness of God. We would have to see with our human understanding to see three "persons" here. I rather see how each one of us is made in the image of God...body, soul, and spirit. We are rather lacking in comparison to God, but we're merely the creation, not the God of glory.

We hear the voice of God coming down from Heaven, annointing His own flesh with His Spirit of power...descending like a dove. Beautiful.

God is amazing....His Word became flesh and dwelt among us...His Spirit indwells us.

Christ was with God and Is God..He is "God with us"....in the very bosom of God...is the right hand of God...the Redeemer and Creator....the Righteousness of God.

This has got to be my favorite verse about God. The Son is the Mighty God. (His NAME.)
[quote="Isaiah 9:6":13cvo65z]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[/quote:13cvo65z]


You didn't underline the word --- name --- in the verse. Why ?

 

[Vic C.]

Really? I think it gives a perfect picture of the Oneness of God. We would have to see with our human understanding to see three "persons" here. I rather see how each one of us is made in the image of God...body, soul, and spirit. We are rather lacking in comparison to God, but we're merely the creation, not the God of glory.

If we are to read God's word as it stands in the passage I quoted, you can't get Oneness out of the description given, which is; three distinct beings making up one Godhead in a way that is incomprehensible to our finite minds.

Mat 3:16 And (1)Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw (2)the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo (3)a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That negates Oneness altogether, unless one is bold enough to reinvent math. ;) You would have to divide God into thirds. :o It also negates modalism too, which says that God is only manifested into one of His three "positions" one at a time.

We hear the voice of God coming down from Heaven, annointing His own flesh with His Spirit of power...descending like a dove. Beautiful.

A better reading of that would say, The voice of the Father from Heaven, anointing His beloved Son (God in the flesh) while the Spirit of God (God, the spirit) descends upon him like a dove.

No matter how you slice it, you still come up with three separate yet distinct beings here. :yes

But I guess trying to systematically prove this doctrine to those who don't see it is beyond the capacity of our mortal and finite minds. It's not a theology that just pops out of the Bible. It has been systematically defended for hundreds of years from the OT up to the NT.

Also, there is no "human" understanding to a triune God, it is for the most part, a spiritual thing.

 

[elijah23]

As I said above, they teach #3.

Sunday I talked with a retired United Methodist pastor. He says the church teaches #2.

 

[glorydaz]

Really? I think it gives a perfect picture of the Oneness of God. We would have to see with our human understanding to see three "persons" here. I rather see how each one of us is made in the image of God...body, soul, and spirit. We are rather lacking in comparison to God, but we're merely the creation, not the God of glory.

If we are to read God's word as it stands in the passage I quoted, you can't get Oneness out of the description given, which is; three distinct beings making up one Godhead in a way that is incomprehensible to our finite minds.

Mat 3:16 And (1)Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw (2)the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo (3)a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That negates Oneness altogether, unless one is bold enough to reinvent math. ;) You would have to divide God into thirds. :o It also negates modalism too, which says that God is only manifested into one of His three "positions" one at a time.

[quote:109s08za]We hear the voice of God coming down from Heaven, annointing His own flesh with His Spirit of power...descending like a dove. Beautiful.

A better reading of that would say, The voice of the Father from Heaven, anointing His beloved Son (God in the flesh) while the Spirit of God (God, the spirit) descends upon him like a dove.

No matter how you slice it, you still come up with three separate yet distinct beings here. :yes

But I guess trying to systematically prove this doctrine to those who don't see it is beyond the capacity of our mortal and finite minds. It's not a theology that just pops out of the Bible. It has been systematically defended for hundreds of years from the OT up to the NT.

Also, there is no "human" understanding to a triune God, it is for the most part, a spiritual thing. [/quote:109s08za]
Yes, and I believed in the "trinity" for many years. It's only as I read the Word I see there are three manifestations of just One God. The voice of God calling Jesus in the flesh His Son with the Spirit of God coming upon Him does not mean there are three distinct persons. One must "reinvent" math to understand God. It's a higher math...1+1+1=1. Even those who believe in the trinity, as generally understood, use that formula. It happens, I don't use my finite mind to understand God. That's why I see there is only One God...not three.