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The Trinity

Was a man after he was not, and when he died, he became like an angel.

God - G2316 - Theos

  • God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,

This is where the word Theology comes from. It’s used contextually in the previous verse 15 twice and rendered as God both times. As we see God is the correct rendering.

but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,(G2316) which is the church of the living God,(G2316) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:15-16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1,14


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

He plainly stated He is Almighty God, and immediately they tried to stone Him.

The book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ;
who He is.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come,
the Almighty.
” Revelation 1:8


And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6
 
Randy

If you state the following:
Son is the beginning of the creation of God. A child of the Father. (His spirit) and the complete make up of His being. Col 1:19-From the will of another, gifted not formed.
Again He's the beginning of the act of the creation and I'll add here the firstborn of all creation. Without the act of the creation there would be no Son.
Then you cannot say about the Son: true God, not made.
 
The story of the Holy Trinity is much more complicated for complicated people. But first it is necessary to understand the distinction between the teachings about God, one is about a transcendent God, that is without the influence of creation, and the other is about the economic action of God, which includes the creation, maintenance and salvation of creation. Only when we understand the teachings about the transcendent and economic God at the same time, then we understand both correctly.
 
You keep posting the commentary of men in the face of scripture, while at the same time you ignore my question.

Please tells us who the only begotten Son of God is -

God - G2316 - Theos

This is where the word Theology comes from. It’s used contextually in the previous verse 15 twice and rendered as God both times. As we see God is the correct rendering.

but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,(G2316) which is the church of the living God,(G2316) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:15-16


Randy, all you seem to be standing on is denial; denial of what the scriptures say over and over.
This is entirely truthful. Scholars disagree as to what the Greek actually says in verse 16, whether it is theos or hos ("who"). There is room for legitimate disagreement here and to say that someone is denying "what the scriptures say" because they don't agree with what verse 16 says in the KJV, is not honest and ignores the differences of opinion among scholars.

There are plenty of other proofs besides this one (and 1 John 5:7) in which the text is doubtful or easily called into question. Use more solid passages where there is little to no question about the Greek text.
 
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I may have a somewhat different explanation of the Trinity than that offered up in the opening post--not such a big deal. I don't claim to be perfectly literate on all of the terms historically used and argued over. I would just say the following....

Some Church Fathers referred to the Son being "lesser" than the Father precisely because that is how Jesus described himself. In this he was not describing his Deity as his origin, but rather, his humanity originating from uncreated Deity.

However, I do agree with the original post in indicating that Deity is of a single substance, and cannot be inferior in its original essence. However, when we are describing created essence then that essence can be distinguished from uncreated essence and indicate something inferior even though it is still the superior divine essence that is being expressed in a lesser form.

It should be clear that God's Word can generate created appearances of God to produce something less than God might be thought of in His absolute transcendence. We could not, at any rate, conceive of God in His transcendence, and so we must rely upon God's Word to express God to us in a form that is inferior to how He is in His transcendence.

Anything produced in time and in space is going to look "less" than something uncreated and transcending beyond anything limited to time and space. But something appearing in time and space that is being generated from eternity, or from the transcendent God, can represent, in lesser times, that transcendent God.

So the revelation of God's Word produced an image of God that is indeed originating from God's transcendent essence but appearing less than His uncreated Being in the form and essence of a created man, Jesus. From out of eternity Jesus was generated to produce a limited image of the transcendent God. Appearing thus in a finite image Jesus nevertheless is eternally being generated from the transcendent Deity to maintain His Deity in the form of man.
 
Randy

If you state the following:

Then you cannot say about the Son: true God, not made.
I don't as the one who sits on the throne in heaven is His God and Father in all ways.
He is the first begotten of God our Father and His Father. Didn't I state God from true God? There is only one Deity as in the first and last and that Deity without limit lives in the Son. Jesus is ALL that the Father is. They are one. The Deity in Him created as in God created by His Son. As in God in these last days spoke to us by His Son. Yet He is not that Deity. As IN Him not Him. If He was Deity why would there be a need for the Deity to dwell in Him? He is the image of the first and last and the imprint of the Fathers very being for in Him the Father lives in fullness as in without limit. God was the Word and the Word was with God. One GOD as in only one Deity. The NT and the creeds acknowledge "From" the Father. The source of all things that come. Jesus testified that the person of the Father is the "only" "true" God. I take Him at His word. One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

About the Son
Hebrews 1:6
 
God - G2316 - Theos

  • God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,

This is where the word Theology comes from. It’s used contextually in the previous verse 15 twice and rendered as God both times. As we see God is the correct rendering.

but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,(G2316) which is the church of the living God,(G2316) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:15-16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1,14


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

He plainly stated He is Almighty God, and immediately they tried to stone Him.

The book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ;
who He is.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come,
the Almighty.
” Revelation 1:8


And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6
Your problem is that I believe in Him. So take it up with my Lord. The Deity that lives in Him is unbegotten and is the First and Last.
I believe all that is written of Him
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
Is it not stated He is "from" another?
God from God. True God from true God. As in a Son.

The person of the Father is the only "true" God and we read "from" whom all things come.

I believe you Lord.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
 
Randy

In Christian theology, the distinction between the Deity and the Person is important, but also that the Person is primary, that the Deity is contained in the Person, and not vice versa. Thus, the persons of the Holy Trinity, who are eternally interwoven, contain one Deity.
 
Your problem is that I believe in Him. So take it up with my Lord. The Deity that lives in Him is unbegotten and is the First and Last.
I believe all that is written of Him
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
Is it not stated He is "from" another?
God from God. True God from true God. As in a Son.

The person of the Father is the only "true" God and we read "from" whom all things come.

I believe you Lord.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Ok. So you choose to ignore the vast amount of scriptures the teach us, Jesus Christ LORD.

God - G2316 - Theos

  • God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,

This is where the word Theology comes from. It’s used contextually in the previous verse 15 twice and rendered as God both times. As we see God is the correct rendering.

but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,(G2316) which is the church of the living God,(G2316) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:15-16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1,14


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

He plainly stated He is Almighty God, and immediately they tried to stone Him.

The book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ;
who He is.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come,
the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6
 
Ok. So you choose to ignore the vast amount of scriptures the teach us, Jesus Christ LORD.

God - G2316 - Theos

  • God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,

This is where the word Theology comes from. It’s used contextually in the previous verse 15 twice and rendered as God both times. As we see God is the correct rendering.

but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,(G2316) which is the church of the living God,(G2316) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (2316) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:15-16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1,14


Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

He plainly stated He is Almighty God, and immediately they tried to stone Him.

The book of Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ;
who He is.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come,
the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6
I believe Jesus is Lord but He is not our Father. "God" is our Father for His Spirit alone gives birth to spirit. That's why Jesus call Him God and "Father"

You painting a picture that the Father is silent in all those scriptures that you state Jesus states. NOT SO

The God and Father of Jesus is stated as speaking in the past through the prophets. The same one who spoke to the people in the past is the very one who spoke to us by His son in these last days. Jesus is the word of the Father. (God) The Fathers words are full of life.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

Is the Father from another? And how is one that has no beginning from another as a Son ? What does the word begotten mean? What does the word unbegotten mean?

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;

It is stated Jesus had a human spirit. What part of Him descended from above if not His own spirit? Where did His spirit go when He was the Son of Man.

If Jesus and the Father have the same one and only Deity of God what makes them different persons? Their minds? The source true God would remain the Fathers Deity. He never changes. True God FROM True God

IF He is Deity as is the Father why the need? Col 1:19

From the will of another. Col 1:19 -Clearly another defined His being. If Christ IN you is a new creation then why can't you see the Deity pleased to dwell in the Son is a creation of God?

I think we will agree to disagree.

I holding to this theological statement.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Father who sits on His throne in heaven was not testified to as the one descended. He sent His Spirit into the world. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. They shall all be taught by God.
 
Randy

In Christian theology, the distinction between the Deity and the Person is important, but also that the Person is primary, that the Deity is contained in the Person, and not vice versa. Thus, the persons of the Holy Trinity, who are eternally interwoven, contain one Deity.
The is only one Deity and God is Spirit. I read the fullness "was pleased" to dwell IN Him. I read the oneness Jesus stated between He and the Father. The Father living IN Him. And the oneness between Jesus and us. He living in us. The Father in Him and He in us.

You believe Jesus had to ask and receive for His own spirit to live in us? And why does He state "another" if it's His spirit? The Spirit of Christ.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

I have nothing new to state we will have to agree to disagree.
I believe in one God "the Father" and one Lord Jesus Christ and the distinctions made between them. Orthodoxy ignores such distinctions in order to hold to one God. I don't need to as it is the Father living in the Son and they are one in that manner as Jesus taught.
 
I believe Jesus is Lord but He is not our Father.

So does everyone else in this thread.

My question however who do you believe Jesus is?

God?
Angel?
Man?
 
So does everyone else in this thread.

My question however who do you believe Jesus is?

God?
Angel?
Man?
As I read He is Christ the Lord. In regard to the nature found in Him He is God. Yet it is the Fathers nature not His own. The Father is unbegotten Deity. His Spirit without limit (fullness) lives in His Son.
Hebrews 1 contrasts Jesus's "sonship" vs the sonship of the angels of God for God gave birth to their spirits as well. Jesus alone has the Fathers nature and His Sonship and the glory the Father gave Him is far superior to the angels of God.

If Jesus's spirit gave birth to my spirit He would be God My Father. He is Christ my Lord.
He did not ask for and receive His own spirit from the Father.
He did not speak of His own spirit as another advocate.

He is the only like to like begotten SON of the Father or the begotten God. As the fullness of the Fathers Deity lives in Him. The Father is unbegotten and He gave birth to the spirit of Jesus who is His firstborn.

The Deity living in Him is the Father.
God created through/by Him.
God spoke through/by Him.

You silenced the Father in the creation claiming Jesus created and you silenced the Father in stating Jesus spoke through prophets. I read otherwise. From the Father through the Son.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
 
Greetings JLB,

Jesus is a man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor
A man approved of God. His son, born and crucified in weakness of the flesh, and raised in power of eternal life.
One person, not two persons. Nor one person with a dual personality.
 
Greetings JLB,

Jesus is a man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

What is He before He became a Man?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9
 
As I read He is Christ the Lord. In regard to the nature found in Him He is God.


Yes, Jesus Christ is God; not God the Father, but God the Son.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.

The Son became flesh.


The Son will return with the saints on the Day of the LORD; the Day of YHWH, the Day of Christ.


1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
. Zechariah 14:1-5
 
Jesus is a man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.
A man approved of God. His son, born and crucified in weakness of the flesh, and raised in power of eternal life.
One person, not two persons. Nor one person with a dual personality.
Here is the issue: Jesus claimed to actually have preexisted:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
...
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
...
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Joh 6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
...
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
...
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
...
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Joh 8:14 Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
...
Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
...
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”

Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.


Based on that, John, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews do so as well.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

(All ESV.)

To deny that Jesus preexisted, is to deny a very plain and obvious fact about him. It would be to make him a liar, as well as his disciples. It would completely undermine the inspiration of Scripture and reduce it to a mere book.
 
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