The Trinity

[RandyK]

As I read He is Christ the Lord. In regard to the nature found in Him He is God. Yet it is the Fathers nature not His own.

This appears to me to be a contradiction. 1st, you say that Jesus is God. Then you say that the "nature found in Him" is the "Father's nature," and "not His own."

If this Divine Nature does not belong to Jesus but only resides within him, then it is not his nature at all. So why even call him "God" or capitalize "Him?"

The Father is unbegotten Deity. His Spirit without limit (fullness) lives in His Son.
Hebrews 1 contrasts Jesus's "sonship" vs the sonship of the angels of God for God gave birth to their spirits as well. Jesus alone has the Fathers nature and His Sonship and the glory the Father gave Him is far superior to the angels of God.

The Father is unbegotten Deity. The Son is begotten Deity as well as unbegotten Deity. That is because Jesus had two natures, and not just one nature. He had both a Divine Nature and a Human Nature. He was both God and Man.

Jesus was generated from the unbegotten God to become a begotten form of Deity, the Son. And so, the Son also has within him the unbegotten nature of God, as well as his own human generated nature.

This means that Jesus not only had within him the unbegotten nature of God, but he also had that Divine Nature expressed in the form of his human nature, indicating that the Divine Nature was his as the Son, and not just the Father's possession.

If Jesus's spirit gave birth to my spirit He would be God My Father. He is Christ my Lord.
He did not ask for and receive His own spirit from the Father.
He did not speak of His own spirit as another advocate.

He is the only like to like begotten SON of the Father or the begotten God. As the fullness of the Fathers Deity lives in Him. The Father is unbegotten and He gave birth to the spirit of Jesus who is His firstborn.

The Deity living in Him is the Father.

The Deity living within him is the Divine Nature that belongs to the Father. The Father lives in Jesus via the Divine substance, or essence. But the way the Father lives in the Son is via the Word, which expresses the unbegotten Father in the form of the begotten Son.

So it isn't just that the Divine Nature lives within Jesus, but that Jesus, as a man, has the Divine Nature himself. He does not just contain God, but is God.

You say this, but then contradict yourself by saying only that he is God by virtue of the Father's Nature living within him. Jesus didn't just contain God--he was God.

God created through/by Him.
God spoke through/by Him.

You silenced the Father in the creation claiming Jesus created and you silenced the Father in stating Jesus spoke through prophets. I read otherwise. From the Father through the Son.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

God the Father operates within His creation through His Word. It is His vehicle of expression, including His self-expression. That is, He can express His own Person via His Word.

So when God spoke to us through His Son, it was one way in which God was speaking via His Word. The Son was the Personal expression of God, or His Word made flesh.

In speaking through the Son, the Father wasn't just using an instrument of communication. Much more, He was depicting His own Person in the form of a Man, and as such speaking through him as well as identifying him as the Divine Person, even if in finite form.

God can speak, using His Word, through angels, through men, or through any means He chooses to use as an agency of communication. But in speaking through the Son He was, in fact, communicating a form of His own Divine Person to show that he was not just an instrument of communication, but Deity himself.

 

[LeviR]

Here is the issue: Jesus claimed to actually have preexisted:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
...
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
...
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Joh 6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
...
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
...
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
...
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Joh 8:14 Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
...
Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
...
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”

Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.


Based on that, John, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews do so as well.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

(All ESV.)

To deny that Jesus preexisted, is to deny a very plain and obvious fact about him. It would be to make him a liar, as well as his disciples. It would completely undermine the inspiration of Scripture and reduce it to a mere book.

They misunderstand the words. That’s why they invented another doctrine besides the Trinity invention, that they call transubstantiation.

 

[Free]

They misunderstand the words.

Prove it. Actually address each text and show exactly how the words are misunderstood and how a plain reading of those texts teaches something other than what is plainly stated.

That’s why they invented another doctrine besides the Trinity invention, that they call transubstantiation.

This is a clear dodge of the texts. Need I remind you that this is the Apologetics forum. If you're going to engage, then do so honestly and respect others by addressing what is posted rather than avoiding doing so, and doing so with a red herring.

 

[LeviR]

Prove it. Actually address each text and show exactly how the words are misunderstood and how a plain reading of those texts teaches something other than what is plainly stated.


This is a clear dodge of the texts. Need I remind you that this is the Apologetics forum. If you're going to engage, then do so honestly and respect others by addressing what is posted rather than avoiding doing so, and doing so with a red herring.

Because they misunderstand his words, they imagine themselves eating his actual flesh and blood every Sunday.
They take his words literally when he said he was the bread of life that came down from heaven.
In the same way, they imagine he as one of mankind, came down from heaven and planted himself in the womb of Mary.

 

[Free]

Because they misunderstand his words, they imagine themselves eating his actual flesh and blood every Sunday.
They take his words literally when he said he was the bread of life that came down from heaven.
In the same way, they imagine he as one of mankind, came down from heaven and planted himself in the womb of Mary.

So, you're not actually going to address any of the texts? You're just going to ignore Jesus's own words and those of his disciples that he came down from heaven?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

To deny that Jesus preexisted, is to deny a very plain and obvious fact about him. It would be to make him a liar, as well as his disciples. It would completely undermine the inspiration of Scripture and reduce it to a mere book.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father "I will be who I will be" is fully revealed in and through Jesus, the Son of God his Father.

Kind regatds
Trevor

 

[Randy]

This appears to me to be a contradiction. 1st, you say that Jesus is God. Then you say that the "nature found in Him" is the "Father's nature," and "not His own."

If this Divine Nature does not belong to Jesus but only resides within him, then it is not his nature at all. So why even call him "God" or capitalize "Him?"

The Father is unbegotten Deity. The Son is begotten Deity as well as unbegotten Deity. That is because Jesus had two natures, and not just one nature. He had both a Divine Nature and a Human Nature. He was both God and Man.

Jesus was generated from the unbegotten God to become a begotten form of Deity, the Son. And so, the Son also has within him the unbegotten nature of God, as well as his own human generated nature.

This means that Jesus not only had within him the unbegotten nature of God, but he also had that Divine Nature expressed in the form of his human nature, indicating that the Divine Nature was his as the Son, and not just the Father's possession.

The Deity living within him is the Divine Nature that belongs to the Father. The Father lives in Jesus via the Divine substance, or essence. But the way the Father lives in the Son is via the Word, which expresses the unbegotten Father in the form of the begotten Son.

So it isn't just that the Divine Nature lives within Jesus, but that Jesus, as a man, has the Divine Nature himself. He does not just contain God, but is God.

You say this, but then contradict yourself by saying only that he is God by virtue of the Father's Nature living within him. Jesus didn't just contain God--he was God.

God the Father operates within His creation through His Word. It is His vehicle of expression, including His self-expression. That is, He can express His own Person via His Word.

So when God spoke to us through His Son, it was one way in which God was speaking via His Word. The Son was the Personal expression of God, or His Word made flesh.

In speaking through the Son, the Father wasn't just using an instrument of communication. Much more, He was depicting His own Person in the form of a Man, and as such speaking through him as well as identifying him as the Divine Person, even if in finite form.

God can speak, using His Word, through angels, through men, or through any means He chooses to use as an agency of communication. But in speaking through the Son He was, in fact, communicating a form of His own Divine Person to show that he was not just an instrument of communication, but Deity himself.

I disagree. The Father is the only true God. Col 1:19- from the will of another.

Don't you believe God FROM God; true God FROM God? The source remains the Father. In the NT He is the one stated from whom all things come. He created through His Son. Which is also noted in the Nicene creed as well.
Jesus testified to who lived in Him and the oneness He had with the Father. Since He and the Father are ONE how then could He NOT be ALL that the Father is? The begotten God or the only like to like begotten Son of the Father. It's the Fathers Deity without limit (fullness) that dwells/lives in Him.

How do you explain Jesus is from another but has no beginning to qualify FROM?
How is He fully God and fully human as the Son of Man if He had a human spirit and a human boy? What part of Him was God?
What part of Him descended from above if not His own spirit?

Jesus did not ask for and receive His own spirit from the Father. He spoke of the Fathers promise. "In the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit...."
The Fathers Spirit gives birth to spirit. God is our Father in that regard. Jesus is His son and His Christ our Lord.
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made. (unbegotten)




I agree in part

 

[Randy]

Yes, Jesus Christ is God; not God the Father, but God the Son.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.

The Son became flesh.


The Son will return with the saints on the Day of the LORD; the Day of YHWH, the Day of Christ.


1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:1-5

Even the Nicence creed, as does the NT, states created "through" Him.

God created through Him. From the Father through the Son in all things as I read.

The Deity in the Son, the Father, created. In this manner God created alls things by His Son.
The Deity in the Son, the Father, spoke to us in these last days. In this manner God spoke to us by His Son. The same Spirit that spoke in the past in various ways. The Father is in heaven. He sent His Spirit into the world.

Gods Spirit gave birth to my spirit. He alone is my Heavenly Father. He is also Jesus's Father as well.

Col 1:19 from the will of another. Jesus and the Father are ONE. Since Jesus and the Father are one how then could Jesus NOT be all that the Father is?God
Col 1:19 in itself qualifies as a creation of God and it has to do with the makeup of the being of the Son.

 

[JLB]

Since Jesus and the Father are one how then could Jesus NOT be all that the Father is?God

Amen.

Jesus is indeed God. God the Son.

As any Son honors his father, so also the Son honors His Father, and seeks to do His will.

 

[LeviR]

So, you're not actually going to address any of the texts? You're just going to ignore Jesus's own words and those of his disciples that he came down from heaven?

Are you going to ignore Jesus’ own words and not eat his flesh and blood every Sunday?
If you don’t eat him you have no life in you, he said,
Bon appetit.
If you can’t see that the RCC makes up their doctrines out of total misunderstanding of the words, I can’t help you.

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father "I will be who I will be" is fully revealed in and through Jesus, the Son of God his Father.

It is fallaciously begging the question to say that Yahweh is only the Father. Why do you also ignore the many scriptures I gave that clearly state Jesus preexisted?

 

[Free]

Are you going to ignore Jesus’ own words and not eat his flesh and blood every Sunday?
If you don’t eat him you have no life in you, he said,
Bon appetit.
If you can’t see that the RCC makes up their doctrines out of total misunderstanding of the words, I can’t help you.

You're still dodging and showing that you don't know how to rightly handle "the word of truth" (2Ti 2:15).

You're basing your entire dismissal on one portion of verses I gave, while ignoring the rest, or at least using that portion to override the clear and plain meaning of the rest, without any basis for doing so. Yes, Jesus used metaphor in John 6--"bread;" "feeds on my flesh," "drinks my blood"--but that does not mean his coming "down from heaven" was metaphor, any more than "everyone who looks on the Son and believe in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:40) is metaphor.

You're picking and choosing what is metaphor based solely on your denial of the deity of Jesus. That he isn't literal bread is clear; that we don't eat his literal flesh and drink his literal blood is clear. But none of those things mean his coming down from heaven is metaphorical, especially when, as I pointed out, it is mentioned elsewhere in John and in the NT.