The Trinity

[JLB]

Friend, I have received the baptism of the Spirit, and please reread my entire post.

Ephesians 4:5 (NASB):
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”

Greek Text (Nestle-Aland 28th Edition):
εἷς κύριος, μία πίστις, ἓν βάπτισμα

Key Greek Words:
εἷς κύριος – one Lord (εἷς = one [masc.]; κύριος = Lord, Master)

μία πίστις – one faith (μία = one [fem.]; πίστις = faith, belief, trust)

ἓν βάπτισμα – one baptism (ἓν = one [neut.]; βάπτισμα = baptism

Context:
This verse is part of a larger unit, Ephesians 4:1–6, which emphasizes unity in the body of Christ. Paul lists seven unifying elements of the faith: one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.

So please, I want to have a discussion with others going through the same experience as I am and not the underlying nuance that I'm "missing something"

Don't "dissect" my post and miss the context, please.

J.

Amen. The context is unity. Paul is emphasizing the unity of one.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

The baptism Paul has in mind is the common baptism all believers undergo by which we all are baptized into one body; the body of Christ.

Paul emphasizes this same idea of the unity of one to the Church in Corinth.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

• one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all

However, by saying one baptism, Paul is certainly not referring to one (singular) baptism, but the one baptism by which we are unified together in the body of Christ, though we are many members with many different functions.


Paul teaches us plainly and contextually with the same frame of mind from
1 Corinthians 12, he had already established this truth about the different baptisms.

Paul teaches us that there are three distinct and different baptisms with three distinct and different baptizers. He does this by using his ability to convey spiritual truth, through the use of types and shadows from the Old Testament, much like the Passover lamb was a type of Christ, foreshadowing His sacrifice on the cross during the Passover.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Into Moses corresponds to being baptized into Christ whereas the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.

In the cloud corresponds to being baptized with the Holy Spirit, whereas Jesus is the Baptizer.

In the sea corresponds to water baptism, whereas John the Baptist or human beings are the baptizers.


Three different baptisms performed by three different baptizers.


Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:12

 

[Johann!@#]

Amen. The context is unity. Paul is emphasizing the unity of one.

Not More than One Baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Eph. 4:4-6).

These verses contain “the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), and these seven truths are to unite believers, members of the Church.

First, there is “one Body.” There is one singular Church for this current dispensation of grace. Though there are many different denominations and countless local assemblies in the world, there is only one Body. The one Body is the one true Church, the universal body of believers of this present age. It is made up of anyone and everyone who has trusted the gospel of the grace of God, that Christ died for our sins and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:12-13).

Second, there is “one Spirit.” There are not separate Spirits or different Spirits that indwell the many members of the one Body, but the same Spirit. One Spirit, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Church as a whole and every individual in it (Eph. 2:22).

Third, there is “one hope of your calling.” We who are in the Church do not have different hopes; we all have the same hope of heaven (Eph. 2:6). There is a different hope held out in the Bible for Israel: an everlasting kingdom on the earth. However, our one hope and eternal calling in Christ is heaven.

Fourth, there is “one Lord.” The same Lord over you is the same Lord over me and all of us in the Church: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Head of the Body (Eph. 1:22-23), and we are each called to submit to Him and His loving Lordship.

Fifth, there is “one faith.” We do not follow multiple or different faiths. There is not one faith for one part of the Body and another faith for a different part of the Body. There are other faiths to be found in the Bible that were to be followed and obeyed in the past, however. For example, for 1500 years, in order to be accepted of God, Israel was required to trust and obey the law. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one faith, one body of truth for us to trust and follow: the faith that was committed to the Apostle Paul for the Church under grace (Eph. 3:1-9).

Sixth, there is “one baptism.” There are multiple baptisms taught in the Bible: the baptisms and washings required under the law, the water baptism of John the Baptist, the water baptism of Peter at Pentecost, and numerous spiritual baptisms. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one baptism, the baptism that the Holy Spirit performs at our salvation (1 Cor. 12:13).

Seventh, there is “one God and Father of all” of the Body. There is one God in three Persons—all three Members of the Godhead being mentioned in this passage—and we all worship and serve the same God. God the Father is “above all” the Body, works “through all” the Body, and is “in…all” the Body.

It is important to look at the “one baptism” in light of the other six ones in the list, because there obviously are not multiple Bodies, various Holy Spirits, nor several hopes of our calling; there are not lots of Lords, numerous faiths for us to follow under grace, or more than one God the Father. There is only one of each of these for us. Likewise, there are not multiple or two different baptisms, but only one for the Church today. And this baptism is spiritual; it is a Spirit baptism.

“In Christ” is a blessed prepositional phrase and is stated frequently in Ephesians (Eph. 1:1,3; 2:6; etc.) and throughout Paul’s epistles. How does one get “in Christ”? The answer: by the Holy Spirit’s baptism. The Holy Spirit identifies, unites, and places us into Christ the instant we trust the gospel of grace.

We firmly believe in baptism. However, there is only “one baptism” today; Ephesians 4:3,5 teaches that the spiritual baptism is what is to unite us as the one Body of the Church today. The one baptism is to be what it stands for, proclaims, and causes us to rejoice in continually, because the truth of this baptism is an extraordinary blessing.

A Spiritual Circumcision
“In Whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11).

Colossians 2:10 states the wonderful truth that “ye are complete in Him [Christ].” In Christ, we are made whole. By faith alone in Christ, trusting His finished work, we lack nothing for salvation. Nothing is missing and nothing can be added. We are not saved by Christ plus something or plus anything. It is not Christ plus water baptism. Christ is all we need, and salvation is in Him alone.

However, our completeness in Christ which Paul teaches here in Colossians 2 is dependent upon baptism—the one spiritual baptism, that is. Having stated that we are complete in Christ in verse 10, Paul then expounded on that completeness.

In verse 11, Paul wrote, “In Whom,” meaning in Christ, we “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.” Being in Christ by way of our spiritual baptism means that we share in what was accomplished through His death. We are joined to His death and resurrection by the Spirit and receive the eternal benefits of His finished work, for example, “In Whom [Christ] we have redemption through His
blood, even the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:14).

In our union with Christ and being identified with His death, we are “circumcised,” and this circumcision is “made without hands.” This is teaching that the moment we were joined to Christ by the Spirit’s baptism, a spiritual circumcision also took place. Paul’s explanation of this circumcision is found in the second half of Colossians 2:11: “in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.”

“The body of the sins of the flesh” refers to the old, sinful, fallen human nature which dominates and reigns over the unbeliever. But the “putting off” of this old nature takes place “by the circumcision of Christ,” or as the result of Christ’s death on the Cross and our union with it when we believed.

One [Unifying] Baptism

“Three boys are in the schoolyard bragging of how great their fathers are.“The first one says, ‘Well, my father runs the fastest. He can fire an arrow, and start to run, I tell you, he gets there before the arrow.’ “The second boy says, ‘Ha! You think that’s fast! My father is a hunter. He can shoot

bereanbiblesociety.org

J.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Johann, RandyK, donadams, Free and Fish153,

You seem to equate the Logos of John 1:1 with the personified Wisdom figure in Proverbs 8, suggesting that John merely employs metaphorical language rather than affirming the pre-existent divine personhood of Christ. However, this conflation fails on grammatical, contextual, and theological grounds

In the beginning was the Wise Woman Wisdom, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was with God, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by her; and without her was not any thing made that was made. And the Wise Woman Wisdom was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth and wisdom and understanding.

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

1 Corinthians 1:23–24 (KJV): 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Thanks Trevor, but I just don't understand the statement that God the Son "was contracted" into the womb of Mary. What does it mean to be "contracted into?" The word seems to have been used by you to replace the more natural "conception." .....
But when the "conception" occurs as a result of a Divine miracle, ie when God "conceives" His Son in Mary's womb, then it is a very unique kind of "conception"--it is the Incarnation.

The Trinitarian "incarnation" is somehow reducing a Divine Being into a very small addition to an ovum in Mary's womb and thus losing the role, status and activity of a Deity for the next nine months and also during Jesus' childhood. All of this is not very clear as most Trinitarians claim that God the Son is somehow fully preserved and his divine nature also preserved, but here also you claim that "God "conceives" His Son in Mary's womb". This term "conceive" usually speaks about the combination of both the female and male portions to produce a human, with human nature.

what do you mean Jesus's life started? Christ is eternal!
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

It says yesterday, not from eternity.

Apostolic Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.
If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

It is good that the persecuting power of the Papacy has been greatly reduced these days after the 1260 years of the power of the Little Horn of Daniel 7 have run their course.

That's the problem; it shouldn't. Jesus was asked, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” (ESV). For him to answer, "before Abraham was I am he [the Messiah]," would be to completely ignore the question. But, he wasn't ignoring the question, he was answering it.

I do not consider it a problem. Jesus had stated that Abraham had looked forward to his day, the day of Christ, that it was the central focus of his hope and salvation, including the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection. Jesus more or less answers their question, by acknowledging their continued interest in his relationship with Abraham by stating that Jesus was the promised seed not only to Abraham, but also before Abraham, as he was also the promised seed to Eve, and that he was in the plan and purpose of God before creation.

the best manuscripts actually read "God only begotten."

Trinitarians will endorse the erroneous manuscripts and call them the best.

It is impossible to truly understand John's gospel without understanding that the Son has always existed. It's only that through Mary he took on human nature in addition to his divine nature (Phil. 2:6-8) and had the name Jesus. But, as the Son, there was never a time when he did not exist.

I doubt that anyone can understand this supposed fusion. Luke 1:34-35 teaches that Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is his father and Mary his mother.

Jesus was NOT a CREATED BEING in any sense of the word.

Jesus was the firstborn of the new creation.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

It seems to me that there are two named YHWH--one who was on earth (Gen. 18:1) and went to Sodom for the purpose of deciding judgement, and another in heaven.

Of the two that are called Yahweh in Zechariah 3, one is identified by Jude as Michael the Archangel who spoke and acted on behalf of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again Johann, RandyK, donadams, Free and Fish153,

In the beginning was the Wise Woman Wisdom, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was with God, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by her; and without her was not any thing made that was made. And the Wise Woman Wisdom was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth and wisdom and understanding.

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

You didn't pose this matter directly to me, but I can immediately see the problem with this. Someone else properly mentioned that "Wisdom personified" is not the same thing as identifying the "Logos" or "Word of God" in the flesh.

"Wisdom personified" is only identifying a single attribute of God's Word. The Word of God made flesh, namely, Jesus, was "filled with wisdom," but this shows how a man can utilize his access to God's wisdom.

In the case of Jesus, he natively had access to God's wisdom precisely because he was the "Word made flesh." As such, he still had to be "filled with wisdom" spiritually, and then use his human volition to apply it.

The Trinitarian "incarnation" is somehow reducing a Divine Being into a very small addition to an ovum in Mary's womb and thus losing the role, status and activity of a Deity for the next nine months and also during Jesus' childhood. All of this is not very clear as most Trinitarians claim that God the Son is somehow fully preserved and his divine nature also preserved, but here also you claim that "God "conceives" His Son in Mary's womb". This term "conceive" usually speaks about the combination of both the female and male portions to produce a human, with human nature.

Yes, Jesus in being conceived in the virgin womb of Mary did not remove the transcendent aspect of Diety, but rather, reduced the revelation of God for the isolated purpose of showing Him as a man. Yes, Jesus became a form of God in human flesh without sacrificing God's attributes as an infinite Being, or what you call "preserving fully both his human and divine natures."

"Conception" is understood to be the procreation of a human being, regardless of whether the proper ingredients are there, if only by miracle both are there. To require both male and female contributions argues against the record of this special "conception" via the virgin Mary. So, the word "conception" is being used as Christians are applying the word, and not by your own limitation on how the word can be used, requiring both male and female ingredients.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

In the case of Jesus, he natively had access to God's wisdom precisely because he was the "Word made flesh." As such, he still had to be "filled with wisdom" spiritually, and then use his human volition to apply it.

Before the supposed incarnation, when he was supposedly God the Son in heaven, was there any limitations for him to use Wisdom. Did he lose this attribute and have to start again, or did he during his youth have two minds, one developing wisdom, the other fully Divine and hence full of wisdom?

Yes, Jesus in being conceived in the virgin womb of Mary did not remove the transcendent aspect of Diety, but rather, reduced the revelation of God for the isolated purpose of showing Him as a man. Yes, Jesus became a form of God in human flesh without sacrificing God's attributes as an infinite Being, or what you call "preserving fully both his human and divine natures."

Perhaps you are unsuccessfully trying to answer what I have asked above.

"Conception" is understood to be the procreation of a human being, regardless of whether the proper ingredients are there, if only by miracle both are there. To require both male and female contributions argues against the record of this special "conception" via the virgin Mary. So, the word "conception" is being used as Christians are applying the word, and not by your own limitation on how the word can be used, requiring both male and female ingredients.

What occurred was definitely a miracle, but neither Matthew 1:20-21 or Luke 1:34-35 give any hint or allow the Trinitarian perspective of an incarnation of God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor
?

 

[Johann!@#]

In the beginning was the Wise Woman Wisdom, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was with God, and the Wise Woman Wisdom was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by her; and without her was not any thing made that was made. And the Wise Woman Wisdom was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth and wisdom and understanding.

Yup, you are something TrevorL--

Gnostic Sects (1st–3rd centuries A.D.)
Key Examples: Valentinianism, Sethian Gnosticism, Basilideans

Doctrine: Many Gnostics personified Sophia (Greek: σοφία, "Wisdom") as a female aeon or emanation of the divine pleroma who either fell from the divine realm or participated in creation in a flawed or limited way.

Relation to John 1: Some Gnostic sects reinterpreted John 1 with Sophia as the creative force or "Mother" figure rather than the Logos being Christ. These groups often split the divine Word (Logos) and Wisdom (Sophia) into separate metaphysical entities, sometimes assigning Sophia a redemptive or tragic role.

Primary sources: The Apocryphon of John, Pistis Sophia, Gospel of Truth (Nag Hammadi texts)

2. Philo of Alexandria (1st century B.C.–1st century A.D.) -- Not a sect but influential
Philo used Logos as a divine intermediary but also associated Sophia with aspects of divine action and creation.
Relevance: Philo never feminized the Logos, but his blending of Hellenistic philosophy and Jewish theology indirectly influenced later groups (including some Christian Gnostics).
Distinction: For Philo, Logos remains masculine, whereas Sophia is abstract and secondary.

3. Some Feminist Theology Movements (20th–21st centuries)
Examples: Certain strands of liberal feminist theology, ecofeminist theology, and process theology
Doctrine: These often intentionally reinterpret God-language to be inclusive or emphasize feminine imagery for God. They may portray Christ-Sophia as an androgynous or female image of divine wisdom incarnate.

Relation to John 1: Some have deliberately rewritten John 1:1–14 to say “Wisdom was with God, and Wisdom was God... and Wisdom became flesh,” paralleling Proverbs 8 and Sirach 24.
Notable names: Elizabeth A. Johnson (She Who Is), Rosemary Radford Ruether

However, this is not a coherent theological system, but a literary/theological reimagining, often for ideological rather than exegetical reasons.

4. Theosophy and Esoteric Christianity (19th–20th centuries)
Examples: Helena Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner (Anthroposophy)
Doctrine: These systems blend Christianity with mystical or occult ideas, often reinterpreting traditional texts symbolically. They sometimes identify Christ with a “Cosmic Sophia” or divine feminine principle.
Relation to John 1: These groups rarely exegete John 1 formally but may read the Logos as a mystical archetype and see Sophia as its feminine balance.

5. New Age Spirituality & Christian Mysticism (modern syncretism)
Doctrine: In New Age and mystical writings, Wisdom (Sophia) is often treated as a divine archetype, cosmic principle, or universal mother. Some reword John 1 to reflect Sophia as creator and redeemer.
Relation to John 1: Typically symbolic and poetic, not exegetical. Influenced by Jungian psychology, goddess worship, or panentheistic views.

6. Unitarian Universalists and Liberal Protestantism (select branches)
Some liberal theologians within these groups have recast John 1 using inclusive or feminist language.
Relation to John 1: While not widespread, these revisions reflect a theological agenda more than fidelity to Greek syntax or historic Christian doctrine.

7. Modern "Sophianic" Christian Sects (rare and fringe)
Some ultra-liberal Christian sects or mystical cults--such as Sophian Gnostics or “Wisdom Christianity” networks--explicitly rewrite texts like John 1 to include a feminized Logos/Sophia figure. These are fringe movements not recognized by any historic Christian tradition.

Summary Table
Group/Sect Interprets Logos as Sophia? Uses John 1 with feminine imagery? Orthodox Christology?
Gnostic sects Yes Yes No
Philo of Alexandria Partially No N/A (non-Christian)
Feminist Theology Sometimes Yes No (heterodox)
Theosophy / Esoterics Yes Yes No
New Age Spirituality Yes Symbolically No
Liberal Protestantism (some) Sometimes Sometimes Varied
Unitarian Universalists (some) Sometimes Sometimes No

Please don't respond, I am really not interested.

J.