The Trinity

[Johann!@#]

You never addressed the scriptures I posted.

The OP is about the Trinity, not water baptism.

J.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Johann,

Why would I want to "dominate" you and this long running thread? I hardly post here.

I apologise for my inappropriate comment. In retrospect mainly I was frustrated at our lack of progress in our discussion. I could have been in a bad mood as well.

You are way off on the doctrine of Christ Jesus, His incarnation and conception.

I consider that we have both adequately stated our different perspectives on this important subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Then your only possible interpretation of John 8:58 is that Jesus is saying, "before Abraham was, I am the Messiah." But, again, that makes no grammatical sense

I find the more possibilities that you suggest, and in the process tying yourself with a number of ropes with knots that cannot be undone, the more I am convinced of the simple and clear meaning of Jesus' statement. For a start, it is part of the theme mentioned in the following and then continued on in the immediate context and circumstances of John 7 and 8.

John 4:25–26 (KJV): 26 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:56–58 (KJV -adjusted): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

Abraham, by means of the promises concerning the Messiah, and by the events of Genesis 22 looked forward to the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus, and foresaw this day of Jesus and was glad. The Pharisees did not endorse this, even if they understood his claim, but deliberately muddied the waters by deriding him, and asking if he was 2000 years old. Jesus answered that the promise of Messiah predated Abraham who had looked forward to Jesus and his day, as Jesus is also the Messiah who promised concerning the seed of Eve and that he was also the Messiah who was in the plan and purpose of God before creation.

And anti-Trinitarians will call them erroneous simply because they make a stronger case for the deity of Jesus. The fact is that the vast majority of textual evidence has come to light after the KJV was made.

The sad fact is that there are two different wordings in the different manuscripts. I can only conjecture that the ECF's who were astray and then the Apostate Trinitarian Church that followed preserved the one that supported the Trinity. As I asked Johann!@#, what manuscript did the faction of the early Ebionites who believed in the Virgin Birth possess? Many years ago I used to work with a Plymouth Brother who was an expert in the Greek text. The only portion of the Scripture that he mentioned to me that he rejected was John 7:53-John 8:1-8. Many years later I am convinced that this is a correct portion of John's Gospel and also placed in the correct position, even though many modern authorities reject this, or at least hold this passage in doubt and its location in doubt. This fairly neutral example makes me very skeptical about some of this "scholarship".

It doesn't matter whether we really understand it. The Bible says what it does in Phil. 2:6-8. We can't simply ignore that passage because we find something incomprehensible or incompatible with our beliefs.

I do not ignore that passage. I have an alternative perspective of Philippians 2:6-8 that it speaks of the humble disposition of the mind of Jesus in his youth and in his ministry.

No, Mary has nothing to do with Jesus being the Son of God. He is the Son of God only because he is the Son of the Father.

I was carefully trying to speak about the conception and exclude the concept of the incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God by birth, not the transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary. Mary has a large involvement in the whole process.

What does that have to do with anything? You can't just go making random connections in Scripture because you don't agree with the plain meaning of a text.

Zechariah 3 and Jude reveal that the Angel of Yahweh is Michael and that some scriptures grant him the nomenclature "Yahweh". I consider that Genesis 18 is a similar example.

Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Johann!@#]

I apologise for my inappropriate comment. In retrospect mainly I was frustrated at our lack of progress in our discussion. I could have been in a bad mood as well.

No need to apologize, we all have our "moody" days in intense moments of fellowship.

J.

 

[JLB]

Abraham, by means of the promises concerning the Messiah, and by the events of Genesis 22

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

Who do you believe appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetngs again JLB,

Who do you believe appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him?

The Angel of Yahweh who spoke and acted on behalf of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. This is similar to what I posted above concerning the Angel of Yahweh being called Yahweh in Zechariah 3 and also Exodus 23:20-21. Yahweh Himself was in heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor