The Trinity

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

You asked the question: „What part of Jesus was God?” I answered you, it is His Person. In Orthodoxy, each of the three persons of the Holy Trinity is the bearer of the complete Divinity.

You said earlier that the Father and the Son are two persons, but now you mention the person only for the Father. You say that the Son is not true God, but only some God from true God.

However, the symbol of faith says that the Son is „true God from true God”. The Son is all that the Father is, but is not the Person of the Father, but we are talking about Two Persons of the true God.

 

[Randy]

Randy

You asked the question: „What part of Jesus was God?” I answered you, it is His Person. In Orthodoxy, each of the three persons of the Holy Trinity is the bearer of the complete Divinity.

I asked if He had a human spirit and a human body what part of Him was God?
I asked what part of Him descended from heaven if NOT His own spirit?
I tell you the person of the Son, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. The person of the Son did in fact descend and ascend to where He was before. Not some newly created human spirit in Mary's womb.
And it is His spirit.
"Father into your hands i commit My spirit"

The
You said earlier that the Father and the Son are two persons, but now you mention the person only for the Father. You say that the Son is not true God, but only some God from true God.

We are speaking of the Son all this time yet you say I only speak of the Father? You need to put context to that in order for that to make any sense to what you're accusing me of doing.
I'm very sure I stated the Father was living in His Son and they are ONE. No other Deity was formed. It's the Fathers Deity living in the Son in all His fullness. Thats One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. They are one.

However, the symbol of faith says that the Son is „true God from true God”. The Son is all that the Father is, but is not the Person of the Father, but we are talking about Two Persons of the true God.

I asked you how could the Son be FROM another as a Son but has no beginning? Do you know the meaning of the word "from"? Your foundation is mystery. Just stuff stated so without any reasonable scriptural support and explanation.

I don't believe God shares your theology of a God that has no beginning but does claim He is unbegotten.
"No God was formed before me"

I agree the Father is the source as in the only unbegotten true God. Its His Deity and remains His Deity even as He is living in His Son.
Hence God from true God.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

How you now interpret the embodiment of the Son of God was discussed at the Second Ecumenical Council in 381. At that time, Apollinarius claimed that Christ was not fully human, but that the human spirit was replaced by the Spirit of Son of God. The Council rejected this.

You ask me how the Son is „from” the Father if the Son has no beginning. But that is the same as asking how God became the Father if He has no beginning. In the Christian faith, all three persons of the Holy Trinity are one and complete God. Of course, this is a mystery. This is God's existence.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Excellent summaries. I can agree with some of the fairly common usages of that word "trinity", but never all. Much the same as the word "christian". I resist using words God has not used in Scripture, for Himself, or for His Church.

How you now interpret the embodiment of the Son of God was discussed at the Second Ecumenical Council in 381.

I don't. Not interested in the result of discussion of councils, most especially post-Constantine.

 

[Randy]

Randy

How you now interpret the embodiment of the Son of God was discussed at the Second Ecumenical Council in 381. At that time, Apollinarius claimed that Christ was not fully human, but that the human spirit was replaced by the Spirit of Son of God. The Council rejected this.

Jesus spirit was formed by God before all things. The Firstborn of all creation. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. The Son who was, His spirit descended from above and was in that Human body. The MAN Jesus Christ. The error introduced by the councils is they believe Jesus's spirit is divine as well so they claim human spirit to fix that issue. The only Deity living in the Son is the Father.
The spirit of a being is that being and remains as God formed it. It never changes. The Holy Spirit doesn't convert to human spirit and back again.

What we know is that it was Jesus's spirit and He was before the world began. We know His body was human.
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

As I already showed several times Jesus would not have received His own spirit from the Father in Acts 2 and Jesus would not have stated another advocate given if it was His spirit. Jesus stated the Spirit would proceed from the Father and the Father would send the Spirit in His name. Christ in us.

You ask me how the Son is „from” the Father if the Son has no beginning. But that is the same as asking how God became the Father if He has no beginning. In the Christian faith, all three persons of the Holy Trinity are one and complete God. Of course, this is a mystery. This is God's existence.

Jesus came from the Father and there is no 3rd person. One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. We don't know where the Father came from but we do know He alone is unbegotten. Jesus is the only like to like begotten Son of the Father. Gods Firstborn. A child of the Father.
God became a Father with Jesus's beginning at some point in history before the world began. The Fathers Spirit is the only Spirit that gives birth to spirit. He is the Father of all spirits even Christ Jesus. God "our" Father. Our heavenly Father.

Two versions found in the manuscripts. The only begotten Son and the only begotten God. The Father is unbegotten. The only true God as Jesus states. The God and Father of Jesus as He and the Apostles state.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

I have no need to convince you so maybe we should agree to disagree.

TO ME AS WELL-My belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

You already know I believe the nature found in the Son is the Fathers not His own and He and the Father are ONE.
And if He and the Father are one then Jesus has to be all that the Father is. He is God in that context.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy
That's right, I already said that I know how you believe. And I explained to you, that you believe as you said in your conclusion, that we find a nature in Christ which is one and the same God. But that has already been discussed and explained as a Monad using masks.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Also, very close to what you believe is the idea of One God and His Demiurge, and this one is not the true God, as you say, but serves for creation, etc. However, traditional teaching says that all Persons of the Trinity are equally eternal and honorable.

 

[Randy]

Randy
That's right, I already said that I know how you believe. And I explained to you, that you believe as you said in your conclusion, that we find a nature in Christ which is one and the same God. But that has already been discussed and explained as a Monad using masks.

He uses truth. Believe in Him.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
"God" so loved the world.... that "HE" gave...

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

How are you and Jesus one?
Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one
From the will of another. One who defined Jesus's being. A creation of God.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
To be sure heaven and earth move at the command of the Son but even so He must abide within the framework of His Fathers will.
The Father does whatever He is pleased to do.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Perhaps its better for you to remain as you believe otherwise you will become outcast. As for me I prefer truth as given from above.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Peace we will agree to disagree.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

Can you answer me, according to you, are we one because the Father is One God, or because the Son and the Father are One God? If you can just confirm or deny my question.

For example, are you and I one as the Son and the Father are one, or are we one as the Father is One?

 

[Randy]

Randy

Can you answer me, according to you, are we one because the Father is One God, or because the Son and the Father are One God? If you can just confirm or deny my question.

For example, are you and I one as the Son and the Father are one, or are we one as the Father is One?

Actually, I had hoped you would read what Jesus stated to the Father.
"That they may be one as we are one"
The Father in Him and He in us.

No, you are I are not one.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

Please give me a clearer answer. Now, you and I should be one as the Son and the Father are one. So you and I should be one. Tell me, please, are you and I, in your opinion, one as the Son and the Father are one, so that as the two persons of the Son and the Father are one, so that we two are one? Tell me whether that is so or not. Answer yes or no if you can.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

God does not want us to be one because God is One, but because God is Trinity. Christianity is the true revelation of Love. Christian theology has its own morality, and one of the most important examples is the teaching about the one essence of God. This essence is untouchable for the created world, except in the case when the Persons of God act with grace energies. It is very dangerous to examine the essence, which is unsearchable, beyond the grace relationship with the Triune God.

 

[Randy]

Randy

Please give me a clearer answer. Now, you and I should be one as the Son and the Father are one. So you and I should be one. Tell me, please, are you and I, in your opinion, one as the Son and the Father are one, so that as the two persons of the Son and the Father are one, so that we two are one? Tell me whether that is so or not. Answer yes or no if you can.

There is a united context as we are all one in Christ. But it is the Spirit of Christ living in me just as the Father is living in Christ. Christ was given the fullness of the Deity we have been given fullness in Him.

I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[Randy]

God does not want us to be one because God is One, but because God is Trinity. Christianity is the true revelation of Love. Christian theology has its own morality, and one of the most important examples is the teaching about the one essence of God. This essence is untouchable for the created world, except in the case when the Persons of God act with grace energies. It is very dangerous to examine the essence, which is unsearchable, beyond the grace relationship with the Triune God.

I would ask one in Judaism not you how does God write this new covenant on the hearts of the people?
I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I don't see the trinity context in this especially when its just 2 -God our Father and Jesus our Lord.

God Himself -singular, the Father -To us there is but one God the Father the only true God. The Father alone is the unbegotten God from whom all things come. His fullness lives in His Son. They are one.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

The problem I see with you is that you want to unite something that is already one. I would like to describe to you the bewitched circle that you are creating. Even when there is a chance to emulate the union of the Father and the Son, it turns out that for you it is still only One Spirit. For you the Son of God is still a creature, although you call it the birth before all creatures. You do not recognize Jesus as the true God, but only one Spirit of the Father.

In a way, perhaps it is better to believe this way, so that each of us is an individual who finds himself in Christ, than to practice some kind of community where the other can be scandalously subordinate to you, a kind of slavish subordination. However, in Orthodoxy we can achieve a true community of equals, in a unified order. It is very important today to participate in intra-Orthodox discussions.

 

[Randy]

Randy

The problem I see with you is that you want to unite something that is already one. I would like to describe to you the bewitched circle that you are creating. Even when there is a chance to emulate the union of the Father and the Son, it turns out that for you it is still only One Spirit. For you the Son of God is still a creature, although you call it the birth before all creatures. You do not recognize Jesus as the true God, but only one Spirit of the Father.

In a way, perhaps it is better to believe this way, so that each of us is an individual who finds himself in Christ, than to practice some kind of community where the other can be scandalously subordinate to you, a kind of slavish subordination. However, in Orthodoxy we can achieve a true community of equals, in a unified order. It is very important today to participate in intra-Orthodox discussions.

Jesus taught the oness He had with the Father NOT me. I follow Him.

We shall agree to disagree.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit who will teach us all things. But you consider the Holy Spirit to be the Father himself, from whom you learn only from the Gospel, as if there is really nothing else for us to learn. As if Christ did not say that we will learn both new and old.

 

[Randy]

Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit who will teach us all things. But you consider the Holy Spirit to be the Father himself, from whom you learn only from the Gospel, as if there is really nothing else for us to learn. As if Christ did not say that we will learn both new and old.

He states so:Fathers promise
In the last days I will pour out MY Spirit....

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Randy

Well, then why do you deny the existence of a Third Person of God, who proceeds from the Father, similar as the Son proceeds from the Father? The Church clearly teaches that the Father gives birth to the Son and proceeds the Holy Spirit through the Son. The Church has an extremely rich academic body of work on this subject. The Church has never been without people who have a living relationship with God, nor will it ever be.

 

[Randy]

Randy

Well, then why do you deny the existence of a Third Person of God, who proceeds from the Father, similar as the Son proceeds from the Father? The Church clearly teaches that the Father gives birth to the Son and proceeds the Holy Spirit through the Son. The Church has an extremely rich academic body of work on this subject. The Church has never been without people who have a living relationship with God, nor will it ever be.

The NT states different. Because it's the person of the Father as in His Spirit sent in Jesus's name not a 3rd person. .
Why would a 3rd person proceed from another? The Father said He would pour out His Spirit as you were shown. I believe Him.

Just 2
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Again just 2
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

The 3rd distinct person from the Father was reasoned in error. It was not that way in the beginning.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Is it your belief the host of heaven and Paul failed/forgot to honor this so-called 3rd person?

The Spirit of truth bears witness of Christ Jesus just as He stated.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

There is only one unbegotten God and that is the Father. The Spirit of the sovereign Lord is His Spirit. There is only one. The Father pours out His Spirit in Jesus name through Jesus. That is as shown in acts 2 as in the Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father.

Mary conceived by that Spirit. Did Jesus ever call that Spirit His God or Father? Its not a 3rd person, It is the Spirit of the one and only true God identified by Jesus Himself as the Father. His God and OUR GOD.

The Father does not have Deity living in Him. He is Deity.

In Him NOT Him from the beginning at some point in history before the world began.
From the will of another. A creation of God just as Christ in us is called a new creation. Jesus is begotten of the Father alone. The Father is unbegotten.
Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.

Jesus clearly stated the Father sent Him and He came NOT to do His will but the Fathers will. That it wasn't His message. It was the Fathers message.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Who is living in Him?
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus is the first begotten of the Father. He, His spirit, is not unbegotten and not Deity. The Deity of the Father that was gifted to live in Him is unbegotten. The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

I believe in part.
Begotten of the Father alone before all things yet not made.

I searched the NT to see if what was stated as in a 3rd distinct person was true and found otherwise. Thats the why.