The Trinity

[Randy]

So, he was just simply a spirit?

God is Spirit, angels are spirits, so yes He was spirit.

Your question makes no sense. It is simply the Son who was incarnate in Mary's womb. Did the Son have different parts prior to the incarnation?

You continue to evade with nonsense. On the way back that's all that He committed to the Father hands. Into your hands I commit My "spirit". Are you suggesting some of Him got left on earth? What part?
What part of Him descended from above and was in that human body if NOT His own spirit?

That would essentially be correct.


This is saying nothing different, when the full context of the biblical revelation is taken into account.


I've put the two logical problems with this to you many times and you have yet to provide a response. (Don't worry, no anti-Trinitarian has bothered with an actual response that deals with the contradictions, so you're not the only one.)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, if you want the verse to say that "one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as 1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:21.

A clear distinction was made that's not captured by orthodox trinity statements.
How would Paul need to write it to satisfy you? Perhaps He should have called the Father the only true God as Jesus did.
Its One God the Father "FROM" whom all things come. As in GOD created by/through His Son.

Second, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2, 10-12 confirm that absolutely everything that has come into existence came into existence by or through the Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Son can never have come into existence, meaning he must have necessarily always existed.

Your reasoning doesn't hold.
God spoke to us by His Son. That is the Father/Deity living in the Son doing His work.
God created by His Son. That is His Deity in the Son doing His work.

So, simple, sound logic leads to the only conclusion that Jesus, or rather the Son, is also God in nature, being of the same substance as the Father. Yet, he clearly is distinct from the Father and is not a separate God, as both are mentioned as being involved in creation, albeit in different roles.

All the fullness of the Deity lives in the Son. Yes the distinction was made as Jesus testified it was the Father in Him doing HIs work and they are ONE.

It is also worth noting that this is likely Paul's expansion of the Shema.

Not just God but God, our Father. Jesus is not our Father. He is our Lord.
Jesus Himself refers to the Father as the only true God and His God.

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, we should note that Paul dismisses the idea of any other actual god or lord, supporting the monotheism he had just stated in verse 4. This does away with your argument that Jesus is God but not the true God.

Second, notice that at the end of verse 4, Paul says "there is no God but one." That is, at least in part, from Deut 6:4:

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Third, now look at what Paul writes in verse 6: "there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ." Note that verse 6 is a continuing argument from verse 4. Putting the argument together then, without the aside in verse 5, we see: "we know . . . that there is no God but one yet for us there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ." This strongly suggests that Paul was expanding on the Shema, as some theologians, such as N.T. Wright, claim. Was that not the whole point of the Shema, to tell the Israelites that Yahweh was the only true God among the many gods of the pagan nations around them?


I have no idea what you're asking here.


Why do you continue to ignore what John 1:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16-17 state? They also say that all things came through the Son, correct? You're doing what the JWs' Watchtower has done with the NWT in Col. 1:16-17 by inserting "other," so that the Son created "all other things." They at least recognized the issue with the text as far as their (unbiblical) beliefs were concerned, although, for unknown reasons, they did it inconsistently by not also falsely inserting "other" into John 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6.


Are you saying the Father dwelt in the Son prior to the incarnation?

Yes

 

[JLB]

Only in the context that Jesus and His Father are one in Deity. The Deity is the one true God, the First and Last.
The Deity dwells IN Christ. The Father is Deity.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Jesus is the very image of the invisible God.

Your perception of who Jesus Christ is, is based on the denial of the scriptures.

 

[Randy]

Your perception of who Jesus Christ is, is based on the denial of the scriptures.

My perception is clear. He is Gods Son, as in a child of the Father who has the Fathers nature in Him.

You and others are not defending Him nor the gospel message. You are defending the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[JLB]

My perception is clear. He is Gods Son, as in a child of the Father who has the Fathers nature in Him.

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?

Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.

God begets God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JLB,

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?
Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.
God begets God.

You cannot create "God". You are denying the meaning of the word "beget".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?

Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.

God begets God.

After all that I have written you ask me my belief?

We agree all the fullness of the Deity dwells in Christ. -We disagree in whose Deity. I state the Father's alone. You state Father,Son, Holy Spirit.
We agree Jesus was begotten of the Father alone before all things. We disagree that took place without a beginning. No beginning is unbegotten. He is begotten and is a child of the Father.(His spirit-the Deity was gifted) He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son. Hence He also states God, My Father.
We disagree on a 3rd distinct person of the Spirit. The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God is the Fathers Spirit always as He alone is the only true God. The Fathers own Spirit has the Fathers nature.

One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. They are ONE.

I hold to this about the Son, that is Jesus is all that His Father is. They are one in Deity. The Fathers Deity.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,sustaining all things by his powerful word
He is the image of the invisible God.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

My belief
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Your belief setting the Spirit aside as nothing was stated in that regard
Now this is eternal life: that they know us the only true God

 

[JLB]

Greetings JLB,

You cannot create "God". You are denying the meaning of the word "beget".

Kind regards
Trevor

I never used the word “create”.

Here is what I said -

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?

Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.

God begets God.


Did you father create you or beget you?

 

[JLB]

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.

Yes I agree. Jesus is God.

Amen.

 

[follower]

Jesus is God. He has totally true knowledge with no spot nor wrinkle. Never wrong. Never error.

Totally unlike men.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

I never used the word “create”.
Here is what I said -
Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.

Let us briefly explain the situation concerning man. God directly created the first humans and the first animals.

Genesis 1:26–28 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There are a number of features here. Man was directly created and was formed using the dust of the earth. He is encouraged to be fruitful and multiply, and as a result his descendants were not new creations directly from God, but God has endowed a man and his wife the ability to have children. We use the term "beget" for this process, but we are in no way independent in this process, but a small part in the process. God is the creator of the whole process and we are his creatures.

Psalm 139:13–16 (KJV): 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?
God begets God.

Now we know that the Scriptures teach that Jesus is the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father.

John 1:14,18 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now in your simple syllogism, we have a few other considerations. When we have children we "get" a creature who did not previously exist. In what sense is Jesus or God the Son begotten? At what time did this new God come into being?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

I never used the word “create”.

Here is what I said -

Do you believe the Son that God beget is God?

Man begets man.
Animal begets animal after its own kind.

God begets God.


Did you father create you or beget you?

God's Spirit gave birth to Jesus's spirit. Jesus is our Fathers FirstBORN. Hence Jesus also states God, My Father.
Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world not at the incarnation. In HIM was pleased to dwell the fullness.

True Gods cannot be by any other person.

Jesus and the Father are ONE in Deity. He is God in that context. Yet it is the Deity of the only true God, our Father.

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,
The image of the invisible God. Not the invisible God.

The eternal life, (life without end), in the Son is the Fathers Deity. He never dies.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
This is NT.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[Randy]

Jesus is God. He has totally true knowledge with no spot nor wrinkle. Never wrong. Never error.

Totally unlike men.

Why/how is that so?

His source of truth. God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

 

[JLB]

Now in your simple syllogism, we have a few other considerations. When we have children we "get" a creature who did not previously exist.

So the seed in the Father didn’t previously exist?

That’s ridiculous.

 

[JLB]

God's Spirit gave birth to Jesus's spirit.

God became flesh; He became the Man Christ Jesus.

Before He was manifested in the flesh as Man, He was God; God the Son.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

o the seed in the Father didn’t previously exist? That’s ridiculous.

I am not interested in pursuing your logic or this discussion, except to say that I do not accept that God begat another God.

God begets God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I am not interested in pursuing your logic or this discussion, except to say that I do not accept that God begat another God.

What would God beget if not God?