The Trinity

[Randy]

Who inspired Paul to write that scripture?

The Spirit doesn't speak on His own only what He hears. That leaves the mind of the Father or the mind of Christ as the source of the grace working in Him.

There is only one Deity no matter how many persons you assign to whose Deity. Jesus and the Father are one in that Deity. The Deity is the first and last. The fullness of the Deity dwells IN Christ.

To me it's the Fathers Deity always. The Father is the source of all things even the gospel message and REV and the God and Father of Jesus.

 

[JLB]

The Spirit doesn't speak on His own only what He hears. That leaves the mind of the Father or the mind of Christ as the source of the grace working in Him.

There is only one Deity no matter how many persons you assign to whose Deity. Jesus and the Father are one in that Deity. The Deity is the first and last. The fullness of the Deity dwells IN Christ.

To me it's the Fathers Deity always. The Father is the source of all things even the gospel message and REV and the God and Father of Jesus.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

 

[follower]

Before "trinity" was introduced in assemblies of followers of Jesus,
there was the Father, the Son, and Wisdom. Step by step after 100a.d. ; after 168 a.d. , doctrines and teachings of "trinity" were introduced from outside sources.

 

[Randy]

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

As I stated there is only one Deity. As Jesus stated He and the Father are one. Again, no mention of this 3rd distinct person.

We disagree on whose Deity it is. My belief is the Father is the only true Deity in Himself and His Deity without limit lives in His Firstborn. That they are one.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

He didn't state now this is eternal life that they know us the only true God. And again no mention of this 3rd distinct person of the Spirit.

God as the person of the Father alone.
The Spirit does bear witness from the mind of the Spirit.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
The Father and His own Spirit are certainly the one and same God and person.

Grace and peace therefore are from God who is our Father and His Christ who is our Lord. Not any 3rd person.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

No 3rd person mentioned
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Jesus, chosen before the world began, was kept hidden in the palm of Gods hand and revealed in these last days but the Spirit of God was known from ancient times. Did any wise man, teacher of the law or prophet ever state the Spirit of God was a distinct person from God our Father?

 

[JLB]

As I stated there is only one Deity. As Jesus stated He and the Father are one. Again, no mention of this 3rd distinct person.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

• you are the temple of God
• Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you,

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

[Randy]

The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

• you are the temple of God
• Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you,

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20

I have the Spirit of Christ in me, and my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is also named the Spirit of truth.
The Spirit of the God and Father of Jesus. As the one Jesus calls the only true God and HIs God sends His Spirit in Jesus's name. - The Fathers promise -In the Last days I will pour out MY Spirit...

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

A coeternal person of the Godhead would not have to ask and certainly not in regard to His own Spirit. Again, there is only one Deity and it's the fathers who is the only true Deity and the source of the truth Jesus spoke of as Jesus testified it wasn't His message but the message of the one who sent Him. The Father living in Him doing His work. They are ONE.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you

Jesus would not have to ask and receive His own Spirit from the Father and there are only two persons noted in the pouring out of this gift of God. God our Father and Jesus our Lord. Nothing about a 3rd person. From the Father and through/by the Son as in all things. 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2
Acts 2
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

 

[JLB]

I have the Spirit of Christ in me, and my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is also named the Spirit of truth.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

The Fathers promise -In the Last days I will pour out MY Spirit...

Let’s look at that.


“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:28-32

• I will pour out My Spirit in those days.“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.

Who is speaking through the mouth of the prophet Joel?

Answer - Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of the LORD was speaking through the Old Testament prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11



Who is coming on the Day of the Lord?

Answer - The LORD Jesus Christ is coming on the day of the LORD, which is called the day of Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) who we call on to be saved?
Answer - Jesus is the name we call on to be saved.
Paul quotes Joel 2

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Plurality when discussing, with himself, making man in his image, which then becomes singular when the creative act is carried out. One being that is God that talks to himself in the plural. We this again in:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” (ESV)

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Gen 11:7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” (ESV)

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” (ESV)

Good Morning Free. How are you all? We are well, thank you.

Love, Walter

 

[Randy]

Let’s look at that.


“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:28-32

• I will pour out My Spirit in those days.“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.

Who is speaking through the mouth of the prophet Joel?

Answer - Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of the LORD was speaking through the Old Testament prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11



Who is coming on the Day of the Lord?

Answer - The LORD Jesus Christ is coming on the day of the LORD, which is called the day of Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) who we call on to be saved?
Answer - Jesus is the name we call on to be saved.
Paul quotes Joel 2

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is as Jesus stated the only true God.
According to Jesus He asked and received from the Father the Spirit that was poured out.
According to Jesus it was the gift the Father promised that He spoke about.

Fathers promise - "In the last days I will pour out My Spirit..."

From the Father given through His Son.

We are not going to agree that Jesus is coeternal. He is the firstborn child of the Father. A Son.

They didn't write the church of God or church of Christ.

From your perspective why the need?
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.

My creed in regard to the Godhead -just 2
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

You ignore His words.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

He didn't state
Now this is eternal life: that they know us, the only true God.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Runningman]

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 45:6

Nothing here about a man called God.

Psalm 45:6 is a direct quote from Hebrews 1:8. Why does the one in Psalm 45:6 not describe God? Have you read Hebrews 1:9?

Hebrews 1 KJV
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The one you're talking about isn't God. He is a man with a God who was anointed above where he previously was. God can't be anointed any higher. He is already the highest to begin with.

 

[Runningman]

And you don't find it important that we are never told that the Jews misunderstood Jesus? It is only your assumption that they misunderstood. You are once again reading your beliefs into the texts rather than letting them speak for themselves. That the Jews correctly understood Jesus's claim is implied by the silence of both John and Jesus, and is fully consistent with John's gospel and his portrayal of just who the Son of God is.

The Jews were told they misunderstood Jesus:

John 8 KJV
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Jesus never corrects his disciples when they worship him, which happened on several occasions, nor does he correct Thomas when he exclaims that Jesus is the Lord of him and the God of him.

Yes he did correct them. He directly taught on worship being given only to the Father who is the only true God. There are no other teachings on who to worship aside from the Father.

John 4 KJV
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How so, exactly? You need to show how that is the case. You make a lot of claims but don't provide much in way of good reasoning and evidence. Again, Phil. 2:5-8 is key (as are John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:10-12). Doesn't Paul clearly state that the Son willingly put himself in subjection to the Father for the purposes of redemption?

What is your point? Didn't God use Jesus for salvation in John 3:16,17?

You're falsely equating function with nature.


And? Is that supposed to do away with the numerous times that Jesus is clearly stated to be the Son of God, the one and only, unique (meaning of monogenes) Son of God. That some instances allow for the understanding of "a Son" in no way whatsoever contradicts or undermines that.

Not what Jesus said when he quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:33-36.

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Yes he is the Son of God. Means he isn't God just like the other Sons of God who are not God.

If you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, if he is just another son of God, you have no life in his name.

Correct.

No. Did the sons of God that you appealed to in Psalm 82:6 have God's nature? How many are said to be "begotten," the "unique" or "one and only," of the Father? How are believers said to be children of God?

even Jesus doesn't possess the full nature of God. God isn't a human with a human nature. There's your paradox that Trinitarians have struggled with for literal centuries and will continue to struggle with until they abandon falsehoods.

 

[Randy]

Psalm 45:6 is a direct quote from Hebrews 1:8. Why does the one in Psalm 45:6 not describe God? Have you read Hebrews 1:9?

Hebrews 1 KJV
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The one you're talking about isn't God. He is a man with a God who was anointed above where he previously was. God can't be anointed any higher. He is already the highest to begin with.

It's about the Son, not man, who has been given the Sovereign authority of the living God. I believe you agree Gods own throne is forever. Jesus sat down on that throne clearly with God's blessing and Will as you read in Hebrews about the Son.

It is His Fathers throne. One in which it pleased God that His Son should sit on with Him.
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

 

[JLB]

Psalm 45:6 is a direct quote from Hebrews 1:8. Why does the one in Psalm 45:6 not describe God? Have you read Hebrews 1:9?

Hebrews 1 KJV
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The one you're talking about isn't God. He is a man with a God who was anointed above where he previously was. God can't be anointed any higher. He is already the highest to begin with.

Yes God became flesh; He became flesh.

Do you believe a man created the heavens and the earth?

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

 

[Free]

The Jews were told they misunderstood Jesus:

John 8 KJV
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There are things the Jews misunderstood, but there is nothing in what Jesus said to indicate that the Jews misunderstood his claims to deity by referring to himself as the Son of God. In fact, he claims deity all the more forcefully and plainly in verse 58.

Yes he did correct them. He directly taught on worship being given only to the Father who is the only true God. There are no other teachings on who to worship aside from the Father.

John 4 KJV
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Of course he did, because he is the Son on earth and there is only one God. He rightly should point to worship of the Father in heaven, but that doesn't mean he isn't also truly God. How else was Jesus to maintain monotheism and worship of the one true God if, although deity himself, he was in the flesh on earth and the Father was in heaven? If Jesus was truly God in human flesh, but not the Father, what should we expect him to say to maintain monotheism?

It is a difficult concept, but we see progressive revelation used throughout the Bible to bring about gradual changes in knowledge of God and what it means to be a child of God.

It is also worth point out the number of times Jesus accepted worship without a single rebuke, which would have been blasphemous if he wasn't also truly God:

Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Mat 14:31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

(It is also very important to also note here the use of "the Son of God" in this context.)

Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
…
Mat 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Luk 24:50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
Joh 9:36 He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?"
Joh 9:37 Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you."
Joh 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

(Note that the context begins with Jesus miraculously healing of a man born blind and then asking the man if he believed "in the Son of Man.)

We also see this in the NT:

Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

(All ESV.)

What is your point? Didn't God use Jesus for salvation in John 3:16,17?

What's my point? What is yours?

You stated: "Jesus explicitly stated God is greater than himself which would be a denial of being equal with God in John 14:28."

I responded: "How so, exactly? You need to show how that is the case. You make a lot of claims but don't provide much in way of good reasoning and evidence. Again, Phil. 2:5-8 is key (as are John 1:1-3, 10, 14; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:10-12). Doesn't Paul clearly state that the Son willingly put himself in subjection to the Father for the purposes of redemption?

You're falsely equating function with nature."

Each passage above unequivocally proves that Jesus is also truly God, but not the Father. So, what does John 3:16-17 and God using Jesus for salvation have to do with any of that?

Not what Jesus said when he quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:33-36.

I don't understand what your point is here and how it addresses what I said.

Yes he is the Son of God. Means he isn't God just like the other Sons of God who are not God.

There is one and only one Son of God who came from heaven, from the Father and who has always existed with him, while there are many sons of God who are created beings, whether angels or humans. Pay attention to what is capitalized and what isn't. Words that apply to Christ can have a more substantial meaning than when they're applied to humans.

Again, the Jews understood Jesus's claim to be the Son of God, wanting to kill him for it, and then finally, once arrested, used that as the basis for the charge of blasphemy and his crucifixion.

Correct.

So, you admit that your argument--'Yes Jesus is called "a Son" many times in the Bible'--was rather pointless?

even Jesus doesn't possess the full nature of God.

He certainly did. He was truly God prior to his incarnation and God cannot cease to be God. This goes back to those passages I gave.

God isn't a human with a human nature. There's your paradox that Trinitarians have struggled with for literal centuries and will continue to struggle with until they abandon falsehoods.

That isn't at all a paradox. Again, Phil. 2:6-8 is key. Like all anti-Trinitarians in these forums, you ignore the hardest verses and then claim that the Trinity is false.