The Trinity

[Butch5]

The biblical concept of the Trinity does not allow for a hierarchial relationship between the members of the Trinity ontologially. The three members need to be co-equal and co-eternal. But there is another relationship which is described by theologians as the 'economical' Trinity. This is to describe how the members of the Trinity relate to each other in the context of creation.

My analogy is an attempt to provide for both of the relationships at the same time. Three men, apart from the play, are just three equal men. But in the context of the play, there are differences in how these three men relate to the play and to each other. For instance, when the author presents a script the actor must play the scenes and recite the lines of the script exactly as the author has written them.

So you could say the within the context of the creation there is a heirarchial relationship between the members of the Trinity - Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I" and apart from the creation there is not - Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

There is much more Scripture that can be used to elaborate on this.

How then do you not end up three Gods?

 

[Deborah13]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:17-19&version=NKJV
My Soul - The Father
My Spirit - The Holy Spirit
My Beloved - Jesus, God in the flesh
Three in perfert harmony. No split personality

We are made in His image. Spirit, Soul, and Body

 

[ezra]

Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:17-19&version=NKJV
My Soul - The Father
My Spirit - The Holy Spirit
My Beloved - Jesus, God in the flesh
Three in perfert harmony. No split personality

We are made in His image. Spirit, Soul, and Body

:yes:yes:yes sorry free but they are not GODS but part of the God head 3 separate but act as one. good post deb :yes

 

[Butch5]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hi Joe,

Yes, it's not as complicated as some make it. The modern teaching on the Trinity simply can't be reconciled, that's why you get statements such as you mentioned above. I don't have time at the moment to explain but will when I get a few minutes.

 

[Fred Marsh]

How then do you not end up three Gods?

The word 'God' is singular and it refers to the three Persons of the Trinity. Each of the Members of the Trinity is called God in the New Testament, but we never read that the Father and the Son are 'Gods.' (John 10:30 I and my Father are one).

One commentator described the concept of the Trinity as one What and three Whos.

 

[Butch5]

The word 'God' is singular and it refers to the three Persons of the Trinity. Each of the Members of the Trinity is called God in the New Testament, but we never read that the Father and the Son are 'Gods.' (John 10:30 I and my Father are one).

One commentator described the concept of the Trinity as one What and three Whos.

Hi Fred,

In what sense do you mean co-equal or do you mean every sense?

 

[BornAgain]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

This does not mean that they are one, aside from doing violence to the truth, is the height of absurdity; one is not his own Father; one cannot beget himself; one cannot exist before he exists. The Father and the Son are one in essence; that is, they possess the divine nature equally; but, they are distinct persons. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father; obviously, not at his own right hand; when he was baptized, he was on earth; his Father, speaking from heaven, acknowledged him as his own Son, and the Spirit, in the form of above, came from heaven. Matt 3:13-17.

 

[smaller]

This does not mean that they are one, aside from doing violence to the truth, is the height of absurdity; one is not his own Father; one cannot beget himself; one cannot exist before he exists. The Father and the Son are one in essence; that is, they possess the divine nature equally; but, they are distinct persons. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father; obviously, not at his own right hand; when he was baptized, he was on earth; his Father, speaking from heaven, acknowledged him as his own Son, and the Spirit, in the form of above, came from heaven. Matt 3:13-17.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh

The Son, The Living Word, The Word made flesh, Is 'The Expression or Image of Him' given for our understanding in the 'external sense.'

His Son, His Image, God In Flesh.

John the Apostle described it this way, and it really is quite the mystery:

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Spirit 'without measure' within flesh. God Himself, The Maker of All in FLESH.

That can be nothing but a mystery.

The Holy Spirit is also the SAME GOD, but given to us as a 'parcel' or part of His Spirit, us perhaps not being able to 'handle' the whole enchilada. But the whole enchilada is where we are all in fact heading for in The Body of One.

Various sects try to slice and dice these matters. A few decades ago I encountered and briefly fellowshipped (very briefly, like one service) at a UPC (United Pentacostal) sect and the pastor 'invited' me to his home afterwards and tried to inculcate me into their particular slant on this matter, that it is all ONLY JESUS, hence they do not play around with other terms like Father or Son or Holy Spirit, as it's all just and only Jesus. He was quite firey about that particular matter. I just listened.

After I left his home I thought about all the women with their buffont hairdo's (this was like 1980) and everyone wearing black rimmed glasses and everyone crying at the altar during the service and thought man, I don't think this is for me.

It was a very strange sect. Retro for sure. Like a weird 50's black and white film.

runnnnnn

s

 

[BornAgain]

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh

The Son, The Living Word, The Word made flesh, Is 'The Expression or Image of Him' given for our understanding in the 'external sense.'

His Son, His Image, God In Flesh.

John the Apostle described it this way, and it really is quite the mystery:

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Spirit 'without measure' within flesh. God Himself, The Maker of All in FLESH.

That can be nothing but a mystery.

The Holy Spirit is also the SAME GOD, but given to us as a 'parcel' or part of His Spirit, us perhaps not being able to 'handle' the whole enchilada. But the whole enchilada is where we are all in fact heading for in The Body of One.

Various sects try to slice and dice these matters. A few decades ago I encountered and briefly fellowshipped (very briefly, like one service) at a UPC (United Pentacostal) sect and the pastor 'invited' me to his home afterwards and tried to inculcate me into their particular slant on this matter, that it is all ONLY JESUS, hence they do not play around with other terms like Father or Son or Holy Spirit, as it's all just and only Jesus. He was quite firey about that particular matter. I just listened.

After I left his home I thought about all the women with their buffont hairdo's (this was like 1980) and everyone wearing black rimmed glasses and everyone crying at the altar during the service and thought man, I don't think this is for me.

It was a very strange sect. Retro for sure. Like a weird 50's black and white film.

runnnnnn

s

I take that into consideration.

The other comments regarding the black and white film at least gave me a recollection and made me chuckle....

 

[Butch5]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hi Joe,

In the Scriptures the word God is used in two ways. I think that many Christians miss this is the cause of much of the confusion. The word God is used as a name to identify the Father. It is also used as a title. Here is a post I posted a while back that gives a basic understanding of the original understanding of the Trinity. If you have questions just ask.

I think the confusion comes in with the understanding of the word God. Jesus and the Father are not the same in person hood. They are distinct from each other, as is the Holy Spirit. I think it is a misunderstanding of John 1:1 that is confusing. Many people read John 1:1 like this,


John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the word ( Jesus) and the word was with God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus) was God (the Father). This is not what the verse says, but I believe it is what causes so much confusion regarding the doctrine of the trinity. If you look in the NT you will find that most of the references to God are references to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However if you look at the Greek word in John 1:1 you can clear up the confusion rather easily. The Greek word for God is "theos" which means deity. Let's look at it again,

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. There are three aspects of the Trinity relative to Scripture, they are, nature, personal attributes, and order. Look at nature, Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, just as a child is of the same nature as his parent. The child is no more or no less human than the parent, they are equally human. So it is with Jesus and the Father, they are equally divine, Jesus being the Son of the Father is no more or less divine than the Father. So when the Scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God, they are speaking of this aspect of nature, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," this is speaking of nature. Now let's look at personal attributes, the Father alone is unbegotten, Jesus is the only begotten God (deity), this doesn't mean He is less divine than the Father, It is just a personal attribute of Jesus. Another personal attribute would be omniscience, Jesus said of the day of His return "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father," So we see that there is at least one thing that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't. Does this mean that Jesus is less divine than the Father? Not at all. Now let's look at order, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, The Father is the source of the trinity, the Son proceeds from the Father. This is how Jesus can say " the Father is greater than I" or " all authority has been given to me" because the Father is above all. So when we read the Scriptures we need to discern what is being spoken of, nature, personal attributes, or order. Many people read Jesus statement "the Father is greater than I" and think that somehow Jesus is a lesser god (deity) but this is speaking of order not nature, regarding nature they are equal. I know this is somewhat simplistic but I hope it helps clear up some of the confusion.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Greetings,
i have written an article specifically on this issue that is being discussed in the above posts. Is Jesus the Father?

^i^

 

[Free]

Greetings,
i have written an article specifically on this issue that is being discussed in the above posts. Is Jesus the Father?

^i^

I don't think anyone is saying Jesus is the Father.

 

[Stormcrow]

Greetings,
i have written an article specifically on this issue that is being discussed in the above posts. Is Jesus the Father?

^i^

Jesus is not the Father but He is God just the same.

 

[twinc]

Jesus is not the Father but He is God just the same.

"the Father and I are one[GOD] - THE Father and Son are both YAHWEH - twinc

 

[wayseer]

This was debated hundreds of years ago - have a read of Jaroslav Pelikan's The Christian Tradition, A History of the Development of Doctrine. When you have digest the 5 volumes you might get some idea of the difficulties involved.

For better or worst, we are stuck with the doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

"the Father and I are one[GOD] - THE Father and Son are both YAHWEH - twinc

Yahweh is a title, it is translated Theos in the Septugint, it means God. Theos means deity or divine. They are two different beings.

 

[WIP]

Yahweh is a title,

This is news to me. I have understood that YHWH was the actual name of God and the word "God" was closer to a title used in place of his name out fear of violation of the 3rd commandment.

I would like to know more.

 

[Butch5]

This is news to me. I have understood that YHWH was the actual name of God and the word "God" was closer to a title used in place of his name out fear of violation of the 3rd commandment.

I would like to know more.

The Septuagint was translated by Jews sent from Jerusalem to Egypt. Those Jews when translating the word Jehovah, translated it with the Greek word "Theos." Theos is not a name, it means deity or divine.

How could it be the name of God (the Father) when it is also used of Christ? That would lead to oneness doctrine which Paul shows is not so.

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1Co 8:6 NKJ)

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (1Ti 2:5 NKJ)

 

[Randy]

Hi Joe,

In the Scriptures the word God is used in two ways. I think that many Christians miss this is the cause of much of the confusion. The word God is used as a name to identify the Father. It is also used as a title. Here is a post I posted a while back that gives a basic understanding of the original understanding of the Trinity. If you have questions just ask.

I think the confusion comes in with the understanding of the word God. Jesus and the Father are not the same in person hood. They are distinct from each other, as is the Holy Spirit. I think it is a misunderstanding of John 1:1 that is confusing. Many people read John 1:1 like this,


John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the word ( Jesus) and the word was with God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus) was God (the Father). This is not what the verse says, but I believe it is what causes so much confusion regarding the doctrine of the trinity. If you look in the NT you will find that most of the references to God are references to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However if you look at the Greek word in John 1:1 you can clear up the confusion rather easily. The Greek word for God is "theos" which means deity. Let's look at it again,

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. There are three aspects of the Trinity relative to Scripture, they are, nature, personal attributes, and order. Look at nature, Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, just as a child is of the same nature as his parent. The child is no more or no less human than the parent, they are equally human. So it is with Jesus and the Father, they are equally divine, Jesus being the Son of the Father is no more or less divine than the Father. So when the Scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God, they are speaking of this aspect of nature, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," this is speaking of nature. Now let's look at personal attributes, the Father alone is unbegotten, Jesus is the only begotten God (deity), this doesn't mean He is less divine than the Father, It is just a personal attribute of Jesus. Another personal attribute would be omniscience, Jesus said of the day of His return "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father," So we see that there is at least one thing that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't. Does this mean that Jesus is less divine than the Father? Not at all. Now let's look at order, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, The Father is the source of the trinity, the Son proceeds from the Father. This is how Jesus can say " the Father is greater than I" or " all authority has been given to me" because the Father is above all. So when we read the Scriptures we need to discern what is being spoken of, nature, personal attributes, or order. Many people read Jesus statement "the Father is greater than I" and think that somehow Jesus is a lesser god (deity) but this is speaking of order not nature, regarding nature they are equal. I know this is somewhat simplistic but I hope it helps clear up some of the confusion.

While Jesus was begotten (firstborn of all creation) the fullness given wasn't. Jesus taught the Father was in Him.

Is Jesus God?

He never dies as He lives forever by the living Father just as we live forever by Jesus.

Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all creation)

Note the word "Son"
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit" But a Jesus apart from the fullness given has never existed. So we need not consider the quality of the Son alone. (apart from the fullness of God (Father)) As you quoted He and the Father are One as in the fullness was pleased to dwell "in" Him.

Randy

 

[Butch5]

While Jesus was begotten (firstborn of all creation) the fullness given wasn't. Jesus taught the Father was in Him.

Is Jesus God?

He never dies as He lives forever by the living Father just as we live forever by Jesus.

Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all creation)

Note the word "Son"
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit" But a Jesus apart from the fullness given has never existed. So we need not consider the quality of the Son alone. (apart from the fullness of God (Father)) As you quoted He and the Father are One as in the fullness was pleased to dwell "in" Him.

Randy

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.