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The Trinity

Butch5 said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Click to expand...

Exactly as I wrote. Jesus has always been the Son. You seem to see Him separate from the Father but try to explain One God. The Son has a beginning (Firstborn of all creation) The fullness that was given to dwell in Him has no beginning in scripture. (The Father) There is only One true God and as Jesus stated that is the Father. The one Jesus calls His God and Father and our God and Father. Keep in mind my assumption is that the moment Jesus was (before creation, before the angels of God) the fullness was given. So a Jesus apart from Gods fullness has never existed and one not consider the quality of Jesus the Son apart from that fullness. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (all that the Father is) Jesus taught that the Father is in Him.

There can never be another spirit formed that is a God. The Father is the first and last. No God formed before Him. No God formed after Him.

Jesus called the Father the One true God. If you state Jesus always was and always was God (an assumption) then you can't hold to One God as Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT" Its more than that as how can one read the NT and not see the Father is greater and that Jesus is under the authority of His God and Father. If Jesus always was and always was God then how did He become the Son? (He has always been the Son)

Randy
 
God has always been A Spirit. Thee Spirit. Unspoken. Unseen.

He Chose to 'express' Himself through His Image, His Word, His Son.

He 'shares' Himself by His Holy Spirit in us, who will not speak to us contrary to His Own Word, ever.

How many in this thread fail to perceive themselves as a participant in this matter, personally?

And instead the contrary spirit nitpicks and detracts. Never perceiving. Never understanding. Always bickering. Always resisting.

This is also a working of His Spirit, showing us continually, the fact of our contrariness.

The Holy Spirit will work resistance in any to a crescendo, down to the last man, until our subjectivity that we are laid into utterly destroys, and every last man is turned against his brothers.

There is a Sword that comes into the heart via the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 19:2
And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Look around you, at your brothers. Look at yourself. Do you NOT see the Sword has 'factually produced' this activity in all who have picked up His Word and Spirit?

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Those who LIVE by the Sword, the Word of God, must DIE from the insertion thereof into their own hearts.

There are TWO forms of captives taken in the battle.

Slaves of righteousness. Slaves of the devil.

Slaves of the devil seek to destroy their brothers, and the Sword has revealed their internal captivity.

They will not and can not see it. They are brutish beasts, ever seeking to kill.

The Egyptian slavemasters and Babylonian captors are carried in our own hearts.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

God calls for the WHOLE HEART to come forth before Him, that it be pierced and divided.

The 'rest' from our enemies is a rest from the enemies we carry in our hearts.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

"and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

One Insurmountable Victor, many dead men.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

Isle of Patmos: Isle of MY KILLING.

s
 
Randy said:
Exactly as I wrote. Jesus has always been the Son.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus became the Son at His human birth, prior to that, He was the YHVH translated as LORD in the KJV. A better translation might the Self-Existent One, the Ever-Living One, the Eternal. He is the one who created Adam, talked with Adam and Eve, allowed Moses to see His back side, Who appeared to many in the Old Testament as the LORD.


You seem to see Him separate from the Father but try to explain One God. The Son has a beginning (Firstborn of all creation) The fullness that was given to dwell in Him has no beginning in scripture. (The Father) There is only One true God and as Jesus stated that is the Father. The one Jesus calls His God and Father and our God and Father. Keep in mind my assumption is that the moment Jesus was (before creation, before the angels of God) the fullness was given. So a Jesus apart from Gods fullness has never existed and one not consider the quality of Jesus the Son apart from that fullness. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (all that the Father is) Jesus taught that the Father is in Him.

There can never be another spirit formed that is a God. The Father is the first and last. No God formed before Him. No God formed after Him.

Jesus called the Father the One true God. If you state Jesus always was and always was God (an assumption) then you can't hold to One God as Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT" Its more than that as how can one read the NT and not see the Father is greater and that Jesus is under the authority of His God and Father. If Jesus always was and always was God then how did He become the Son? (He has always been the Son)

Randy
Click to expand...

Christ, the Word (Logos), the Eternal is the God of the Old Testament. They are two, one greater than the other.
 
John 8:32 said:
Nope.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus became the Son at His human birth, prior to that, He was the YHVH translated as LORD in the KJV. A better translation might the Self-Existent One, the Ever-Living One, the Eternal. He is the one who created Adam, talked with Adam and Eve, allowed Moses to see His back side, Who appeared to many in the Old Testament as the LORD.




Christ, the Word (Logos), the Eternal is the God of the Old Testament. They are two, one greater than the other.
Click to expand...

Psalm 2:12 HCSB

Pay homage to the Son or He will be angry
and you will perish in your rebellion,
for His anger may ignite at any moment.
All those who take refuge in Him are happy.

Scripture teaches that Jesus has always been the Son.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
icee said:
Psalm 2:12 HCSB

Pay homage to the Son or He will be angry
and you will perish in your rebellion,
for His anger may ignite at any moment.
All those who take refuge in Him are happy.

Scripture teaches that Jesus has always been the Son.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

This Psalm is prophetic...

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Jerusalem is anything but the city of truth today.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

It looks forward into the future, not back, into the past.
 
Randy said:
Exactly as I wrote. Jesus has always been the Son. You seem to see Him separate from the Father but try to explain One God. The Son has a beginning (Firstborn of all creation) The fullness that was given to dwell in Him has no beginning in scripture. (The Father) There is only One true God and as Jesus stated that is the Father. The one Jesus calls His God and Father and our God and Father. Keep in mind my assumption is that the moment Jesus was (before creation, before the angels of God) the fullness was given. So a Jesus apart from Gods fullness has never existed and one not consider the quality of Jesus the Son apart from that fullness. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (all that the Father is) Jesus taught that the Father is in Him.
Click to expand...
Randy said:

There can never be another spirit formed that is a God. The Father is the first and last. No God formed before Him. No God formed after Him.

Jesus called the Father the One true God. If you state Jesus always was and always was God (an assumption) then you can't hold to One God as Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT" Its more than that as how can one read the NT and not see the Father is greater and that Jesus is under the authority of His God and Father. If Jesus always was and always was God then how did He become the Son? (He has always been the Son)

Randy
Click to expand...


I think you've misunderstood what I said. The Greek word Theos means God. It is used of both God and Jesus. I said that the Father is the final authority He is the unbegotten God. Jesus or the "Word" (The begotten God) was with God (The Father) in the beginning. Jesus (The word made flesh) said, I came out of the Father. Literally He came out of the Father. The earliest Christians explained it using fire. For example, let's suppose you had a campfire and three days later you decide to make another fire. You take branch and stick it into the first fire and it begins to burn. You remove it and place it on the second wood pile and it ignites. Now ther are two fires, which fire is older? Neither, they were both started at the same time. The second fire exists as a separate entity for three days, however, the fire has existed since the the first fire was ignited. Additionally, after the second fire was lit the first fire was in no way diminished even having brought the second fire into existence. This how they explained Jesus coming out of the Father. Since Jesus came out of the Father He has existed as long as the Father has existed. As the Son however, he had a beginning.

I'm not sure what you consider the fullness, however, let me suggest that the fullness means everything that Father is the Son is.
 
Butch5 said:


I think you've misunderstood what I said. The Greek word Theos means God. It is used of both God and Jesus. I said that the Father is the final authority He is the unbegotten God. Jesus or the "Word" (The begotten God) was with God (The Father) in the beginning. Jesus (The word made flesh) said, I came out of the Father. Literally He came out of the Father. The earliest Christians explained it using fire. For example, let's suppose you had a campfire and three days later you decide to make another fire. You take branch and stick it into the first fire and it begins to burn. You remove it and place it on the second wood pile and it ignites. Now ther are two fires, which fire is older? Neither, they were both started at the same time. The second fire exists as a separate entity for three days, however, the fire has existed since the the first fire was ignited. Additionally, after the second fire was lit the first fire was in no way diminished even having brought the second fire into existence. This how they explained Jesus coming out of the Father. Since Jesus came out of the Father He has existed as long as the Father has existed. As the Son however, he had a beginning.

I'm not sure what you consider the fullness, however, let me suggest that the fullness means everything that Father is the Son is.
Click to expand...

Though I disagree with you on other matters...I whole heartedly agree with this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 

in the beginning was the Word

the Word was God

the Word was with God

the Word created all thing

He, the Word created Adam

the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Jesus said He is the I AM who spoketo Moses….. He was the Burning Bush, the Word

Jesus was made lower than the angel,

He said He could do nothing without the Father shows Him

No one has seen God, Moses communicated with the Word
 
Butch5 said:
This how they explained Jesus coming out of the Father. Since Jesus came out of the Father He has existed as long as the Father has existed. As the Son however, he had a beginning.
Click to expand...
You're saying that Jesus was not always the Son? Then who was he? And if the Father has always existed, it necessarily follows that the Son has as well, or else he couldn't be said to be a Father.
 
Robert Hern said:

in the beginning was the Word

the Word was God

the Word was with God

the Word created all thing

He, the Word created Adam

the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Jesus said He is the I AM who spoketo Moses….. He was the Burning Bush, the Word

Jesus was made lower than the angel,

He said He could do nothing without the Father shows Him

No one has seen God, Moses communicated with the Word
Click to expand...

No one is disputing that Jesus is all that the Father is and that Jesus is called both God and Son. Its Father, Son, Holy Spirit but I note the word "Son"

In the beginning is the point of creation not always was. I define creation as the aspects listed in Genesis in regard to what God created through/with the Son. Neither the Son nor the angels are listed in those aspects. The firstborn of all creation points to Jesus as a Son with a beginning. (before creation, before angels) but a Son. The fullness that was pleased to dwell in Him (The Father, Jesus's God) has no beginning in scripture and was given not begotten. At the point Jesus was the fullness was in Him. (My assumption as Paul is defining Jesus's being) Therefore a Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed and the quality of the Son apart from that fullness need not be considered.

So as I answer the question "Is Jesus God?" It's a yes and no answer. Jesus is all that the Father is but has always been the Son. The Father is Jesus's God just as the Father is our God. Jesus is our Lord. One God, One Lord.

Its easy for Jesus to state His God and His Father for that is truth. God is His Father in all ways.

Randy
 
The Word in the Flesh did not exist until Jesus
Jesus did not exist until the Word became flesh
Jesus in the flesh did not exist in the beginning
The Son of God did not exist until Jesus
 
Robert Hern said:
The Word in the Flesh did not exist until Jesus
Jesus did not exist until the Word became flesh
Jesus in the flesh did not exist in the beginning
The Son of God did not exist until Jesus
Click to expand...

I just don't see how you can come to this conclusion when john 1:1 clearly states otherwise.

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Robert Hern said:
The Word in the Flesh did not exist until Jesus
Jesus did not exist until the Word became flesh
Jesus in the flesh did not exist in the beginning
The Son of God did not exist until Jesus
Click to expand...
That's not what Paul says:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
 
I think this is a matter of semantics. The Word existed eternally in the past, emptied Himself and became flesh. From this point forward, the same Being is know as Jesus Christ. He was not called Jesus Christ in the OT, He was the LORD, YHVH, better rendered the Eternal.
 
Robert Hern said:
can a man made lower than the angels be God
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Yes. What you are having trouble understanding was also the problem the Jews had with Jesus. They also could not understand how he can claim to be God but standing in front of them was a man. So they sought to stone him for blasphemy.

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