The Trinity

[Eventide]

Re: My LORD and my GOD...

We are not to worship anything or anyone other than God, yet we clearly see the disciples giving this same worship to Jesus without a single denunciation.

That's what I thought...

I find it difficult to believe that an Apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ can call him God.. The word calls Him God.. And yet have others saying that He is not God..

?

 

[Randy]

This is not the biblical position. I have already shown that "firstborn" does not necessarily mean "born," but rather can be a title used speak of position, namely, preeminence and sovereignty. Indeed, in at least one context it can only mean that or else it contradicts the rest of the context.

To keep things simple, the Word/the Son/Jesus, has always existed. This is what the Bible makes very clear, hence the doctrine of the Trinity.


Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Yes, "name" which is singular being used to denote the summation of all that singular name means: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



For starters, in the passages I have already given: John 1:1-3,14; John 8:58; 1 Cor 8:6; Phil 2:5-8; Col 1:15-17.


Why do you even ask this question? The Christians', of course. Within the context of what I was stating, I was arguing to the eternal existence of God--that God's existence outside of time, so having existed for "eternity past," is an attribute of God. So unless you want to argue that God has not always existed, which wouldn't be the biblical God, I don't see the point of the question.

What you post states "Yes Jesus is God in that He is all that the Father is" I agree. Jesus is called both God and Son.

What you don't post is a theology that holds to One God. I know what firstborn means and also what the word Jesus uses "Father". His God and our God. It is not in the NT that a christian must state Jesus always was. That theology (incorrect) was added by man. Jesus has His own Spirit and has always been the Son.

I do state in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I note the word Son. I also can't see how the Holy Spirit has His own mind apart from the Father. The Father speaks in terms of His Spirit. The Holy Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit and carries out that will just as our spirit searches our thoughts.

Can anyone explain the trinity.

Yes but not with Jesus always was.

Randy

 

[Eventide]

The One who inhabits eternity...

I believe (and I understand that this doesn't mean it's true) that the reason why we see our Lord Jesus Christ as subordinate to God in His ministry is because that's what His ministry was essentially.. to VEIL His own deity and SERVE HIS very own creation.. The very Creator of all things being subjected to HIS very own LAW.. born under the LAW.. and He SERVED US.. to the most infinite degree imaginable..

He veiled His glory then... although His eternal power and glory will certainly not be veiled in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. at the Revelation of Jesus Christ..

His eternal glory will certainly be unveiled then, when He sits upon the THRONE of His glory, when He comes in His glory.. even with thousands upon thousands of His saints..

 

[Asyncritus]

But the indicative word in that verse is the word 'given.' It was the Father who "gave" the Son a name which is above every name. The only 'names' which are above every name are the names 'Father' and 'Almighty God.' Here 'in type' is how Christ was given "a name which is above every name":

I thought the same for some time, Osg, but one day I woke up to the fact that Paul doesn't leave us in any doubt as to what that Name really is.

It's right there in the very next verse:

"That in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow.."

Context, as you surely know, is everything, and I believe that the context here settles the question.

That's the name above every other human name: I say 'human name' because every human shall bow the knee in the fulness of time, acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord 'to the glory of God the Father'.

In acknowledging him as such, we will all glorify the Father who has glorified His Son.

BTW, I haven't tried the other tools you mentioned (except eSword), but the OLB is really adequate for every average (such as myself) Bible student's needs.

eSword seems much more complex, and the set up of OLB is extremely clear and uncluttered.

 

[Eventide]

firstborn from the dead...

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Creation isn't finished growing yet so to speak... at this present time the creation groans... and it's waiting... for the manifestation of the sons of God.. (Rom 8) things which we can't even begin to fathom and things which shall most certainly be hereafter..

We're sown a natural body and we're raised a spiritual body... and we know that these vile bodies of death shall be changed in a moment, and be fashioned like unto His glorious resurrected body..(which certainly has FLESH and BONE).. even in a moment, in the blink of an eye.

Because He is the firstborn from the dead.. which doesn't mean that He was created or anything like that... it means that His creation will ultimately be like Him.. even having glorious resurrected bodies like HIS body..

That's a basic scriptural fact and it's the hope which all creation awaits to witness..

The manifestation of the sons of God.. right here, in that Day.. the Day of the Lord..

At the revelation (or unveiling) of Jesus Christ...

 

[Butch5]

If you can't see that, I can't help you. And I have pointed out more than once that the term "firstborn" has more than one meaning in Scripture and need not mean that one was "born" or had a beginning. You, like the others, are wanting to take Col 1:15 and completely divorce it from the immediate context of verses 16 and 17. If one wants to take verse 15 and make it say that "firstborn" means Jesus hasn't always existed, then that is in direct contradiction to verses that follow.

Hi Free,

Please, show me where any of the passages you posted in that post require the interpretation that the Son has always existed. To say, "If you can't see that, I can't help you" doesn't address the issue.

Could you explain how it's taking the word out of context when that is just what the passage is saying, He was the firstborn of creation? I don't see anything in the surrounding context that requires that the Son has always existed.

Now you are playing semantic games. Being that this is a discussion on the Trinity in a Christian forum, it is quite clear that one says "God," they mean the Christian God, YHWH, since there is only one God. Jesus is God in the same way the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

I'm not playing semantic games, I've also not suggested any other god than the God of the Bible. What I've suggested is that Christians don't have the same definition of what God means. For instance, your interpretation of the word God requires that one must have always existed as is evidenced by your statement, 'If Jesus didn't always exist He couldn't be God.' This definition is different than the dictionary definition of God. The dictionary defines the word God as divinity or deity. I've heard other definitions in this thread also. I think we need to determine just exactly what the word means.

 

[Butch5]

'The same was in the beginning with God' (John 1).

'Unto the Son, he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever' (Hebrews 1).

Hi Farouk,

What do you think John has in mind when he says, "in the beginning?" I'd suggest from the context he is speaking of creation, Genesis 1.

John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Regarding the passage from Hebrews, His throne being forever doesn't necessitate that it existed in the past. Believers will live forever and ever also, yet, they didn't exist from all eternity. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus will sit on David's throne, thus it was David's throne before it was Jesus' throne so it can't mean Jesus has reigned on the throne from eternity past.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Asyncritus,

"That in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow.."

Context, as you surely know, is everything, and I believe that the context here settles the question.

That's the name above every other human name: I say 'human name' because every human shall bow the knee in the fulness of time, acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord 'to the glory of God the Father'.

In acknowledging him as such, we will all glorify the Father who has glorified His Son

LOL. Yes, that's exactly my point, and is what I went to great lengths to try and explain clearly, but I guess I didn't.

Originally posted by Randy,

Jesus has His own Spirit and has always been the Son.

With regard to the Holy Spirit:

Luke 12:11-12 "Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."


But notice now how Matthew is inspired to relate this same event,

Matthew 10:17-20 "But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER who speaks in you."


There it is, made plain by the scriptures. The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER. A gift the Father gives to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13). Christ is in the Father and we are in Christ and Christ is in us (John 14:20). Teaching us all things (John 14:26) the "comforter…even the Spirit of Truth…" (John 14:16 and 17).


AND WHO DOES CHRIST SAY THIS "COMFORTER…EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH" IS?


Notice,

John 16:13-15 "Howbeit when He the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth: (remember John 14:6 where Christ says "…I am the …truth…") for He shall not speak of Himself; (sound familiar? - John 12:49, John 14:10) but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come."


NOW PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO VERSE 14-15:

John 16:14-15 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what IS MINE and show it to you. ALL things (including the Holy Spirit) that the Father has ARE MINE. Therefore I said that He will take of MINE and show it to you."



The Holy Spirit, the gift God has to give to those who ask him (Luke 11:13) is also Christ's Spirit so that "…Therefore said I, that He (the Father) will take of what is MINE (the Holy Spirit) and will show it to you. A little while and you shall not see me: (in the flesh) and again a little while and you shall see me, because I go to the Father."


Now John 16:7 makes sense:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (Greek - parakleetos) will not come unto you; but if I depart (that is if Christ in the flesh departs), I will send Him unto you." (remember verse 15 of this same chapter - He will take of what is MINE, and will show it to you).


Ever wonder why the Holy Spirit (the Comforter - parakleetos) couldn't come while Christ was here?


Now we can clearly understand Matthew 28:18-20, that "pivotal" Scripture that is used by trinity advocates -

Matthew 28:18-20 "All power is given unto Me (including the power to give the Spirit) in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (the Holy Spirit belongs to both the Father and the Son) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS even unto the end of the world."


The Holy Spirit; which is THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER (Matthew 10:19-20), is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT (the Comforter - parakleetos) - and is the gift God gives to those who ask him. (Luke 11:13)



Just to summarize:

John 16:13-15 "Howbeit when He the Spirit of truth is come [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--He will guide you into all truth: for He shall NOT speak of Himself [He shall not speak of Himself because the Spirit is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever He shall hear [from Whom sent Him], that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what IS MINE and show it to you. ALL things (including the Holy Spirit) that the Father has ARE MINE. Therefore I said that He will take of MINE and show it to you."


The SPIRIT OF THE FATHER is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT. Why? BECAUSE the Father GAVE THE SPIRIT TO HIM! There's no trinity here.

 

[Randy]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

I believe (and I understand that this doesn't mean it's true) that the reason why we see our Lord Jesus Christ as subordinate to God in His ministry is because that's what His ministry was essentially.. to VEIL His own deity and SERVE HIS very own creation.. The very Creator of all things being subjected to HIS very own LAW.. born under the LAW.. and He SERVED US.. to the most infinite degree imaginable..

He veiled His glory then... although His eternal power and glory will certainly not be veiled in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. at the Revelation of Jesus Christ..

His eternal glory will certainly be unveiled then, when He sits upon the THRONE of His glory, when He comes in His glory.. even with thousands upon thousands of His saints..

Regardless as I am not stating again what I have stated already. Though if one has a relationship with the Lord they could seek in prayer to Him if He has always been the Son.

We baptize with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus taught.

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Randy

 

[Eventide]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

Regardless as I am not stating again what I have stated already. Though if one has a relationship with the Lord they could seek in prayer to Him if He has always been the Son.

We baptize with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus taught.

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Randy

What's your belief Randy if you don't mind my asking..

Was The Lord Jesus Christ created ?

And if so, then our worship of Him would be like those of Romans 1... Would it not.. Who worship the creature over the creator.. Right ?

Do you worship The Lord Jesus Christ ?

 

[Randy]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

What's your belief Randy if you don't mind my asking..

Was The Lord Jesus Christ created ?

And if so, then our worship of Him would be like those of Romans 1... Would it not.. Who worship the creature over the creator.. Right ?

Do you worship The Lord Jesus Christ ?

Do you worship The Lord Jesus Christ ? Yes I call Jesus Lord and believe He is the Son of God. I believe the fullness of God is in Him and that Jesus is all that the Father is. (God)


I have posted what I believe over and over so is you question honest?

Jesus has always been a son of the Father. (firstborn) That clearly indicates there was a time Jesus was not. However the fullness that dwells in Him was given not created (The Father) The Father has no beginning in scripture. A Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed.

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son

As I also posted it is the Father who has glorified the Son. It is the Father who even commanded His angels to honor the Son. I will now add Jesus has been appointed by God as the Judge of the living and the dead so that all who honor the Father may also honor the Son.

Randy

 

[Eventide]

Thanks be to God for His unspeakable GIFT...

IMO it's impossible that the Lord Jesus Christ was CREATED in any way shape or form.. because that ultimately and disgracefully diminishes the GIFT OF GOD in His beloved Son actually being the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world..

God shall provide HIMSELF a Lamb.. and we can't even begin to understand the depths of the grace of God in giving His only begotten Son on that forsaken cross..

There's nothing wrong imo in not being able to understand the nature of God without some speculation involved.. although there's certainly an issue with diminishing the unspeakable gift of God in our Lord Jesus Christ to that of a CREATURE.. rather than the CREATOR..

Did the Father send a creature to die for the sins of His creatures.. or His eternal and only begotten Son ?

 

[rrowell]

THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER[/B] (Matthew 10:19-20), is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT (the Comforter - parakleetos) - and is the gift God gives to those who ask him. (Luke 11:13)


The SPIRIT OF THE FATHER is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT. Why? BECAUSE the Father GAVE THE SPIRIT TO HIM! There's no trinity here.

Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we see the presents of all three?

Acts 10:38 (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Did God anoint Jesus with himself?

John 14:26—“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.â€
​

John 14:26 (Oneness Twist)—“But the Comforter, which is me, whom I will send in my name, I shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.â€​

 

[Randy]

LOL. Yes, that's exactly my point, and is what I went to great lengths to try and explain clearly, but I guess I didn't.






With regard to the Holy Spirit:

Luke 12:11-12 "Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."


But notice now how Matthew is inspired to relate this same event,

Matthew 10:17-20 "But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER who speaks in you."


There it is, made plain by the scriptures. The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER. A gift the Father gives to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13). Christ is in the Father and we are in Christ and Christ is in us (John 14:20). Teaching us all things (John 14:26) the "comforter…even the Spirit of Truth…" (John 14:16 and 17).


AND WHO DOES CHRIST SAY THIS "COMFORTER…EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH" IS?


Notice,

John 16:13-15 "Howbeit when He the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth: (remember John 14:6 where Christ says "…I am the …truth…") for He shall not speak of Himself; (sound familiar? - John 12:49, John 14:10) but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come."


NOW PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO VERSE 14-15:

John 16:14-15 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what IS MINE and show it to you. ALL things (including the Holy Spirit) that the Father has ARE MINE. Therefore I said that He will take of MINE and show it to you."



The Holy Spirit, the gift God has to give to those who ask him (Luke 11:13) is also Christ's Spirit so that "…Therefore said I, that He (the Father) will take of what is MINE (the Holy Spirit) and will show it to you. A little while and you shall not see me: (in the flesh) and again a little while and you shall see me, because I go to the Father."


Now John 16:7 makes sense:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (Greek - parakleetos) will not come unto you; but if I depart (that is if Christ in the flesh departs), I will send Him unto you." (remember verse 15 of this same chapter - He will take of what is MINE, and will show it to you).


Ever wonder why the Holy Spirit (the Comforter - parakleetos) couldn't come while Christ was here?


Now we can clearly understand Matthew 28:18-20, that "pivotal" Scripture that is used by trinity advocates -

Matthew 28:18-20 "All power is given unto Me (including the power to give the Spirit) in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (the Holy Spirit belongs to both the Father and the Son) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS even unto the end of the world."


The Holy Spirit; which is THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER (Matthew 10:19-20), is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT (the Comforter - parakleetos) - and is the gift God gives to those who ask him. (Luke 11:13)



Just to summarize:

John 16:13-15 "Howbeit when He the Spirit of truth is come [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--He will guide you into all truth: for He shall NOT speak of Himself [He shall not speak of Himself because the Spirit is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever He shall hear [from Whom sent Him], that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what IS MINE and show it to you. ALL things (including the Holy Spirit) that the Father has ARE MINE. Therefore I said that He will take of MINE and show it to you."


The SPIRIT OF THE FATHER is also CHRIST'S SPIRIT. Why? BECAUSE the Father GAVE THE SPIRIT TO HIM! There's no trinity here.

Jesus stated "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me"
The Father stated "I shall place MY SPIRIT upon Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations.
The Holy Spirit preexisted the Son who stated "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"

Jesus has all authority but works within the framework of the Fathers will and remains in the Fathers love. Jesus wills and the Holy Spirit acts just as the Father wills and His Holy Spirit acts. Jesus has authority to have life in Himself. That authority was given to Him by the Father.

I don't agree that Jesus and the Father are only one Spirit. I believe that the Father indwells the Son with His fullness. Jesus has His own mind and Spirit as He is a Son.

Randy

 

[Eventide]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

Do you worship The Lord Jesus Christ ? Yes I call Jesus Lord and believe He is the Son of God. I believe the fullness of God is in Him and that Jesus is all that the Father is. (God)


I have posted what I believe over and over so is you question honest?

There are hundreds of posts here Randy.. I certainly have not seen everything written here... but sorry for missing stuff because I know it can be frustrating to repeat things etc..

Jesus has always been a son of the Father. (firstborn) That clearly indicates there was a time Jesus was not.

IMO that absolutely does NOT indicate that there was a time when He was NOT...

However the fullness that dwells in Him was given not created (The Father) The Father has no beginning in scripture. A Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed.

HE clearly existed prior to becoming Jesus of Nazareth.. that should be painfully obvious.

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son

As I also posted it is the Father who has glorified the Son. It is the Father who even commanded His angels to honor the Son. I will now add Jesus has been appointed by God as the Judge of the living and the dead so that all who honor the Father may also honor the Son.

Randy

I guess the question is.. when do you believe Jesus BEGAN, and what's the basis for that etc..?

 

[Eventide]

The Merchant Man...

Could the bottom line here be this...

Did God give something less than Himself to redeem us.. or did He give all that He had.. to make that ultimate purchase..?

Matthew 13 gives us the answer imo...

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

 

[Eventide]

Divinity... or... Deity..

Another interesting aspect of the conversation here is to break down some terms which we might confuse at times..

It's one thing to speak of DIVINITY.. ie, having a divine nature... even born again Christians have His divine nature within our earthen vessel.. along with our old nature.. even within the same lump of clay..

Although that certainly does not make us DEITY.. we're not God.. and again we have this TREASURE (Him) in these frail earthen vessels so that the GLORY may be of GOD and not us..

So, was Jesus of Nazareth simple DIVINE.. or was He DEITY.. God manifest in the flesh ?

It's easy it seems at times to think of Christ as only divine.. because that was His ministry.. to veil His Deity and SERVE His creatures.. and even that was specifically to the house of Israel.. when they were under the Law... and also under the constant oppression of the Roman empire.

There were infinitely greater matters at hand... things like the sin of the world being laid upon Him.. He knew it all going in to the matter..

He alone could count the cost and He paid it all upon that cross...

We can't even begin to understand imo..

 

[Randy]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

I guess the question is.. when do you believe Jesus BEGAN, and what's the basis for that etc..?

Before the world began.

Randy

 

[farouk]

'The same was in the beginning with God' (John 1)

 

[Free]

What you post states "Yes Jesus is God in that He is all that the Father is" I agree. Jesus is called both God and Son.

What you don't post is a theology that holds to One God. I know what firstborn means and also what the word Jesus uses "Father". His God and our God. It is not in the NT that a christian must state Jesus always was. That theology (incorrect) was added by man. Jesus has His own Spirit and has always been the Son.

I do state in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I note the word Son. I also can't see how the Holy Spirit has His own mind apart from the Father. The Father speaks in terms of His Spirit. The Holy Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit and carries out that will just as our spirit searches our thoughts.

Can anyone explain the trinity.

Yes but not with Jesus always was.

Randy

Then please address the passages I gave.