The Trinity

[Yah1]

Deborah, ty. What do you disagree with Free? And also notice here it says Contending For The Faith,
www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

 

[Yah1]

The explanation of ‘one’ God is that the Godhead describes, not the nature, but the function.

How is this even possible, if it doesn't describe the nature then what does that say of your soul.
Do you not possess the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit?

The Nature of the Holy Spirit is your soul aligned with God's will, mind and emotions
The Function of the Holy Spirit is your spirit aligned with God's conscience, intuition and communion

 

[Tri Unity]

How is this even possible, if it doesn't describe the nature then what does that say of your soul.
Do you not possess the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit?

The Nature of the Holy Spirit is your soul aligned with God's will, mind and emotions
The Function of the Holy Spirit is your spirit aligned with God's conscience, intuition and communion

I think you are using the terms 'nature' and 'function' in a different way in which the Cappadocian fathers had used the terms. You would need to read their letters in full in order to comprehend exactly what they are saying. I only posted a small section of their teaching, and this can be a little misleading (or incomplete). As I said, our modern definitions are largely arrived at from the Cappadocian fathers. I am presenting what they have said, not what I am saying. Watchman Nee, who is referred to above in post # 496, sometimes got the picture of the tripartite nature incomplete also. Most of his books were not actually written by him (or so I understand), so whether this represents his view entirely is not known. Trying to force agreement of the understanding of the Trinity into an explanation of tripartite man is not advisable, IMO.

 

[farouk]

With all this kind of discussion, it's good to see simply various commentaries as providing good or not so good exposition of Scripture.

I don't like the idea of dogma supposedly being passed down by church 'authorities'.

 

[Yah1]

I think you are using the terms 'nature' and 'function' in a different way in which the Cappadocian fathers had used the terms.

But you said they didn't use the term nature to describe the Godhead.
Well, either way let me know how they used the words nature and function and what they were referring too?

 

[Tri Unity]

But you said they didn't use the term nature to describe the Godhead.

That is true. They do give definitions of how the word is used though, and in what context. All three of the Cappadocian fathers give attention to this subject. The Cappadocian fathers are: Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa (brother of Basil), and Gregory of Nazianzen.

Well, either way let me know how they used the words nature and function and what they were referring too?

I placed the link up there for reference if anyone was interested in exploring the subject deeper. I am not defending the fathers; although most modern christians do subscribe to their teaching (myself included). I hope this helps.

 

[Asyncritus]

I can't wait to hear your explanation as to why if there is only one in the Godhead, how could/why would Jesus be the mediator between man and himself?

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This is a very curious post, which I don't fully grasp.

If there is ONE God, over here, and Man (alienated) over there, then the Mediator is the Person who goes between the two.

What is your problem here?

But you have completely failed to notice the very simple words in your quote from 1 Tim. 2.5:

[...] ...the man Christ Jesus

Not, you notice, the GOD Christ Jesus.

He is man, the last Adam, and therefore cannot be God, since

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Since Jesus is a MAN, and calls Himself 'son of MAN' on very many occasions, then He cannot be God. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Incidentally, Gen 1.1: the use of the word 'elohim' is very tricky - if you don't run it through the concordance.

It is a plural noun, no question. But the queen of England, in her speeches at Christmas, invariably says 'we will do this or that'. She is not 3 persons (or more) in one. This is the 'plural of majesty' as the grammarians call it. The subject of the sentence is singular, but the verb is in the plural form.

There is a very full article on this point here:

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html

where, interestingly enough, a quote from Smith's Bible dictionary says in their article entitled "God":

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).​

But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual.


Free, you might like to have a look at this article, where the point you hang on, the use of echad is dealt with in some detail from a Jewish POV.

He goes on later to say:

As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."
Psalm 22:1,2,10

My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me?

why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God (Elohim!!!), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769. This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim!

Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship, from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!

 

[Free]

There is a very full article on this point here:

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html

where, interestingly enough, a quote from Smith's Bible dictionary says in their article entitled "God":

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).​

But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual.


Free, you might like to have a look at this article, where the point you hang on, the use of echad is dealt with in some detail from a Jewish POV.

The author of the article doesn't understand the argument nor how echad and "one" are used.

 

[Yah1]

Since Jesus is a MAN, and calls Himself 'son of MAN' on very many occasions, then He cannot be God. Seems pretty obvious to me

Greetings Asyncritus. This is where i have to correct you, Jesus is God. If you scroll up, be sure to read my side of the trinity post on pg 33 and my post about how to compare your spirit to your soul. Let me know what you think. Faith is what makes us believe.

Also take note here: Jesus wasn't just the God Man - He WAS GOD, HE IS GOD - "I AM HE" John 18:6 - When Jesus was about to be arrested, why did they fall to the ground when He said, I AM HE!

 

[Randy]

Re: The One who inhabits eternity...

Randy, so in summary you believe that Jesus is GOD.. and that He was NOT created, and that He had a beginning.. although you cannot determine from scripture WHEN he began..

IMO the important part of this is that He is GOD manifest in the flesh.. and the Father gave everything that He had to reconcile the world unto Himself.. not something or someone He just whipped up to send into the world..

The importance or end result.
Jesus is all that the Father is. (God) "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him". The fullness (Father) has no beginning in scripture. A Jesus apart from that fullness doesn't exist. So as Jesus taught the Father is in Him. (God with us) Wherever Jesus goes and no matter what body Jesus chooses to wear its the fullness of God in bodily form for the Father is in the Son. As in a bodily resurrection.

However I do believe Jesus has always been the Son of the Father. Firstborn of all creation.

 

[Asyncritus]

Greetings Asyncritus. This is where i have to correct you, Jesus is God. If you scroll up, be sure to read my side of the trinity post on pg 33 and my post about how to compare your spirit to your soul. Let me know what you think. Faith is what makes us believe.

Hiyah (Sorry, couldn't resist that!)

How do you deal with the following in our understanding?

As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."
Psalm 22:1,2,10

My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me?

why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God (Elohim!!!), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.

Also take note here: Jesus wasn't just the God Man - He WAS GOD, HE IS GOD - "I AM HE" John 18:6 - When Jesus was about to be arrested, why did they fall to the ground when He said, I AM HE!

When you give the account some serious thought, you realise that BEFORE they ever arrived in Gethsemane, they were palpitating with fear.

You notice that 'a great multitude' came to get him. Why was that? Here was a bunch of fishermen, led by a carpenter, facing up to some seriously well-armed soldiers (swords and staves were carried).

The disciples didn't worry them - Jesus did.

After all, they all knew that He stilled storms, fed thousands, healed multitudes, even raised the dead. And here they were, ordered to capture such a man as that.

There's comfort in numbers, hence 'the great multitude' - fifty or more, like those that came to take Elisha and got fried? Were they going to get fried too - because this man was far greater than Elisha, and they knew it?

And now here He was, totally unafraid, with His face possibly glowing in the dark from His contact with the angel, and He steps fearlessly toward them.

I am He - meaning, I am Jesus of Nazareth. There's no hint of use of the divine name here - just as there aren't in the other places where the expression 'I am he' occurs. Look it up, and you'll see.

So there's no need to import any heavy trinitarian dogma into the identification of Himself that Jesus gives in order to save His disciples.

They fell back because they were scared out of their little brains, that's what really happened.

Here were these temple ruffians, insensitive, brutal men who would knock his head off His shoulders given half a chance later. Do you think they were so sensitive that the mere mention of what might or might not be the divine name would have them staggering backward to fall on the ground?

I seriously doubt it, and to build a case on grounds such as these, shows just how feeble the case must be.

 

[Free]

I am He - meaning, I am Jesus of Nazareth. There's no hint of use of the divine name here - just as there aren't in the other places where the expression 'I am he' occurs. Look it up, and you'll see.

So there's no need to import any heavy trinitarian dogma into the identification of Himself that Jesus gives in order to save His disciples.

It's not the only time he says "I am." There very much is a hint of the divine name used by Jesus. And, yes, I have looked it up.

They fell back because they were scared out of their little brains, that's what really happened.

Not likely. In fact, the use of "I am" is the most likely explanation.

 

[Yah1]

I am He - meaning, I am Jesus of Nazareth. There's no hint of use of the divine name here - just as there aren't in the other places where the expression 'I am he' occurs. Look it up, and you'll see.

So there's no need to import any heavy trinitarian dogma into the identification of Himself that Jesus gives in order to save His disciples.

They fell back because they were scared out of their little brains, that's what really happened.

Here were these temple ruffians, insensitive, brutal men who would knock his head off His shoulders given half a chance later. Do you think they were so sensitive that the mere mention of what might or might not be the divine name would have them staggering backward to fall on the ground?

I'm not talking about trinitarian or monotheism, or any of those religious words that everyone loves to throw around. These words mean nothing without Faith, do you know what i mean when i say that? Think outside the box here for a second. The word scared has different meanings to different things, different feelings. Feelings reside on the inside of you. For example, if you were with a girl for 1 year and you were scared she was going to leave you is different than feeling scared to parachute off a cliff and different than performing on stage in front of a crowd. The word 'scared' brings upon multiple feelings within you. Why and how were they scared of him. Jesus didn't do anything to them. Performing miracles without the spirit of God inside of Jesus? Jesus had might as well called himself a plain old magician. How is Jesus and David Blaine different from each other? Has any magician in this world stilled storms, feed thousands, healed multitudes, even raised the dead? No, because they did not have the spirit of God inside of them. How could Jesus that walked this earth be an intercessor between humanity and God if God's spirit wasn't in the inside of HIS soul and spirit? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Asyncritus]

Here are the 'I am statements in the gospels and Revelation.

Show which one(s) are the divine name being used, and give reasons why you say so.

Matthew:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.


Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?


Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.


Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


Matthew 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.


Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.


Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Asyncritus]

Mark:

Mark 8:27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?


Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.


Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?


Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:


Mark 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.


Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

[Asyncritus]

Luke:

Luke 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?


Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.


Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?


Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:


Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

 

[Asyncritus]

John

John 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.


John 6:48 I am that bread of life.


John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.


John 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.


John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.


John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?


John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.


John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.


John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.


John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.


John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.



John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.


John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.


John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.


John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.


John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.


John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


John 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Asyncritus]

Acts

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.


Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

 

[Asyncritus]

Revelation

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Asyncritus]

So there they all are , I think.

Now show, with reasons, which of these passages gives the slightest indication that 'I AM' means the Divine Name.

And conversely, given that so many occurrences of I AM do NOT mean the Divine Name, show good reason why we should suppose that any other(s) does so refer.