The Trinity

[Asyncritus]

BTW, I know exactly what the passages mean: and it's not that Jesus pre-existed or was slain before the foundation of the world in Gen 1.

I'm leaving it up to you guys to struggle with squaring this particular circle. I'm listening.

But I'm not optimistic that you can manage it.

 

[Asyncritus]

Hi Wayseer

I imagine you were talkimg to me about the prettiness of my intellect, since Free's quote says "A, ..."

It's not exactly pretty, but extremely efficient in identifying inconsistencies between logic and doctrine.

I don't believe there should be any, since God is not the author of confusion.

But I'd like to hear how you harmonise that problem I raised above. I admit I hadn't thought about it before writing those 2 posts, but it does exist nonetheless.

Maybe your intellect is prettier than mine, and can handle the problem.

I wait...

 

[Free]

Needless to say, it's obvious you have no answer.

Please read what I wrote. I have personally addressed the use of 'firstborn' at least twice, so I am simply not going to repeat myself.

That was not Randy's opinion. He uses the passage as confirming his belief that Jesus existed before the world began. That's a trinitarian POV. I take it that you agree with his POV?

Where did he use that passage? I only see where you brought it in to respond to other passages he was addressing.

So the passage in Jn 17, is also referring to the predestination of Jesus' glory with the Father? And not to His pre-existence?

What passage in John 17? Verse 5?

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (NKJV)

It cannot be any clearer that this is speaking of Christ's preexistence. Not necessarily eternal preexistence, but preexistence nonetheless, since at least "before the world was".

BTW, I know exactly what the passages mean: and it's not that Jesus pre-existed or was slain before the foundation of the world in Gen 1.

I'm leaving it up to you guys to struggle with squaring this particular circle. I'm listening.

But I'm not optimistic that you can manage it.

Which passages? You need to be more clear.

 

[wayseer]

Hi Wayseer

I imagine you were talkimg to me about the prettiness of my intellect, since Free's quote says "A, ..."

It's not exactly pretty, but extremely efficient in identifying inconsistencies between logic and doctrine.

I don't believe there should be any, since God is not the author of confusion.

But I'd like to hear how you harmonise that problem I raised above. I admit I hadn't thought about it before writing those 2 posts, but it does exist nonetheless.

Maybe your intellect is prettier than mine, and can handle the problem.

I wait...

First - my apologies. I deleted my post but Free saw fit to do otherwise.

It is not a matter of trying to 'square circles' as you put it - it is a matter of trying to understand what the Fathers meant by Trinity. Your excursion into rational/logical thinking is not conducive to theology. God does not readily fit into the box you have constructed.

If you want to go further I recommend a slow read through the five volume set of Jaroslav Pelikan's History of the Development of Doctrine.

Doctrine does not, and more often, is not, 'squared' with our understanding of logic. I am prepared to accept that the Trinity is simply a 'mystery'.

 

[Free]

I deleted my post but Free saw fit to do otherwise.

Next time, before you go accusing moderators of doing something, please take good hard look at what happened. I quoted you and then a half hour later you decided to delete your post. I did nothing but quote what was at that time visible to everyone.

 

[wayseer]

Next time, before you go accusing moderators of doing something, please take good hard look at what happened. I quoted you and then a half hour later you decided to delete your post. I did nothing but quote what was at that time visible to everyone.

Perhaps, but I, having deleted my post, would have thought that you may have seen fit to follow.

 

[Free]

Perhaps, but I, having deleted my post, would have thought that you may have seen fit to follow.

And how do I do that if I have no idea you deleted your post?

 

[wayseer]

And how do I do that if I have no idea you deleted your post?

Despite your protest you did become aware of the deleted post at some time but chose to do nothing. That's OK - it's your call.

 

[Randy]

It's really curious to see how often, the 'firstborn' of all creation comes up in this discussion. Or perhaps not.

Is it beyond the wit of you intelligent folks out there to ask a simple question?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?

Incidentally, Paul puts us right there too:

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

More than that, John says:

Rev 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So not only was Jesus there 'before the foundation of the world', He was killed from the foundation of the world'.

And if He was, then how come He was living enough to be born of Mary?

How's that, I wonder? Any ideas?

Spirit gives birth to Spirit that has nothing to do with a male and female coming together to produce a offspring.

God is Jesus's Father. Jesus is a Son. That which was created was at the Fathers Will and at the Fathers command. Jesus had a hand in what His Father did. Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne. That shows to be a Son who received "Glory" rather then a being who always was and always was "God"

Randy

 

[Free]

Despite your protest you did become aware of the deleted post at some time but chose to do nothing. That's OK - it's your call.

Not that I need to justify myself nor that I want to continue this discussion, but I only became aware of it when you brought it up in post #544.

 

[JLB]

It's really curious to see how often, the 'firstborn' of all creation comes up in this discussion. Or perhaps not.

Is it beyond the wit of you intelligent folks out there to ask a simple question?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?

Incidentally, Paul puts us right there too:

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

More than that, John says:

Rev 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So not only was Jesus there 'before the foundation of the world', He was killed from the foundation of the world'.

And if He was, then how come He was living enough to be born of Mary?

How's that, I wonder? Any ideas?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

God begets God!


JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

Wowee!

That's as clear as mud JLB!

And if He was slain (= killed. What? A spirit being killed?) before the foundation of the world, then how come He managed to be born?

 

[JLB]

Wowee!

That's as clear as mud JLB!

And if He was slain (= killed. What? A spirit being killed?) before the foundation of the world, then how come He managed to be born?

Was He slain in the physical world on the cross before the foundation of the world? No!

Did God "see" into the future and know all things before they occurred and made provision for them, before the world was created? Yes!

Do you completely understand this process of how God can see into the future and decide that Jesus would die on the cross in our place to reconcile us back to Himself, because Adam chose to obey Satan rather than God? No you don't completely understand how all that came about or how God operates in the realm of the spirit.

Can you describe clearly in human terms someone with no age?

It sounds like you are are try to inject some carnal reasoning into a spiritual reality and come up with some ...

Let me ask you a question -

Was Eve created in the image of God?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

Was He slain in the physical world on the cross before the foundation of the world? No!

Did God "see" into the future and know all things before they occurred and made provision for them, before the world was created? Yes!

Therefore 'before/from the foundation of the world' is not a literal statement.

So John 17.5 really means: 'Glorify me with the glory which I had with thee before the foundation of the world' in your perception of the future'. And therefore is not a literal statement either.

And therefore is no evidence of the literal pre-existence of Christ, either.

Correct?

Do you completely understand this process of how God can see into the future and decide that Jesus would die on the cross in our place to reconcile us back to Himself, because Adam chose to obey Satan rather than God? No you don't completely understand how all that came about or how God operates in the realm of the spirit.

No, I don't completely understand, and neither do you. I suppose, but you can tell me otherwise, of course.

Can you describe clearly in human terms someone with no age?

It sounds like you are are try to inject some carnal reasoning into a spiritual reality and come up with some ...

I'm trying to inject 'carnal reasoning'??? 'Human' = carnal. But you're the one doing that!

Let me ask you a question -

Was Eve created in the image of God?

Yes or No?

Carnal reasoning again?

I imagine she must have been, or her children wouldn't have been in the image of God, either.

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by JLB
Do you completely understand this process of how God can see into the future and decide that Jesus would die on the cross in our place to reconcile us back to Himself, because Adam chose to obey Satan rather than God? No you don't completely understand how all that came about or how God operates in the realm of the spirit.

No, I don't completely understand, and neither do you. I suppose, but you can tell me otherwise, of course.

Ephesians 3:8-12 (KJV)
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Asyncritus]

Ephesians 3:8-12 (KJV)
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Erm... yeah. And?

 

[Free]

A new thread has been created from all the off-topic posts: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=47463

Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[Randy]

It's really curious to see how often, the 'firstborn' of all creation comes up in this discussion. Or perhaps not.

Is it beyond the wit of you intelligent folks out there to ask a simple question?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?

Incidentally, Paul puts us right there too:

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

More than that, John says:

Rev 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So not only was Jesus there 'before the foundation of the world', He was killed from the foundation of the world'.

And if He was, then how come He was living enough to be born of Mary?

How's that, I wonder? Any ideas?

Paul took pains to show Jesus as First. As firstborn of all creation. Not firstborn of creation. Before all things invisible and visible. Neither the angels of God or the Son are stated in the aspects listed in Genesis yet we believe they exist. (Faith) You ask a question that has an answer with Faith. But I believe as Paul showed Jesus has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all Creation) One who is before all things invisible and visible. Except the One Jesus called His God and Father. The One who gave glory to the Son the One and Only.

Randy

 

[Randy]

The One true God (The Father)
Fullness of the deity in Christ Jesus (The Fathers fullness)
Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of Truth (The Fathers Spirit)

One God, One Spirit, One Lord

Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Thats the trinity to me and thats One God in all.

Randy

 

[Asyncritus]

God is Jesus's Father. Jesus is a Son. That which was created was at the Fathers Will and at the Fathers command.;

Well said.

Therefore as you say below, there's no question of equality here, never mind what the creeds say.

Jesus had a hand in what His Father did.

Now you've lost it, if you're referring to Gen 1.

If you're referring to the New Creation in Christ, then you're perfectly correct.

Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

Correctly stated. Well in tune with Revelation and Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

That shows to be a Son who received "Glory" rather then a being who always was and always was "God"

Well said, again.

The Lord RECEIVED the glory from His Father, exactly as He said:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Thou speakest the words of soberness and truth, Randy. I congratulate you.