The Trinity

[OzSpen]

I don't think I said that God or the Holy Spirit are male. I said, Scripture refers to them in the male gender. Scripture is inspired and provided to us by God and since God chose to use the male gender in describing Himself, I believe it is respectful for us to also refer to Him in the same way.

The Spirit in the NT - to pneuma- as in Holy Spirit, is in the neuter gender. Like German, Greel assigns a gender to all nouns. The context determines whether we refer to the noun as he/she or it.

 

[Susannah]

I just found this. I am not recommending this, just posting it.

From "Holy Spirit: The Feminine Nature of God," by Patricia Taylor . . .

"Men and women long to know and understand God, but this is very difficult when they have an erroneous view of who He is. The fact that the Holy Spirit is feminine was taken for granted by Jews and early Christians, but for unknown reasons, scholars eliminated this aspect of God from their writings. Over time, Jehovah God of the Jews and Muslims and the Triune God of Christians was portrayed as totally male. This is absolutely false and much scripture and early writings of the Church Fathers support this fact.
This is a book that is long past due! Many people have strived to bring a feminine aspect of God into mainstream faith, but none have used credible sources to present so much evidence that cannot be refuted.

It is also a book that is essential for our times. This truth of the Holy Spirit being feminine brings a value to women that they have not enjoyed since Jesus promoted them as equal with men before God. Hurting societies around the world will not heal until the influence of women rises to balance male dominance. Man, woman, Christian, Jew or Muslim, this hi is a MUST- READ!!!

TO GOD BE THE GLORY

 

[Susannah]

I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't believe God dictated the Bible. If he did it never should have been translated so many different ways. When the Bible was written through inspiration all they had was male pronouns. Up until I was in college people did not use she even if they were talking about women. Believe it or not. Anyway this issue will never be resolved. I'm starting to understand that now. Everybody have a good day.

 

[WIP]

I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't believe God dictated the Bible. If he did it never should have been translated so many different ways.

Translations are not original manuscript. They are only translations from one language to another and none of them that I am aware of were completed by single individuals. Rather, they were translated by teams sometimes numbering in the hundreds of individuals in order to attempt to retain the original meanings as much as possible.

 

[OzSpen]

I just found this. I am not recommending this, just posting it.

From "Holy Spirit: The Feminine Nature of God," by Patricia Taylor . . .

"Men and women long to know and understand God, but this is very difficult when they have an erroneous view of who He is. The fact that the Holy Spirit is feminine was taken for granted by Jews and early Christians, but for unknown reasons, scholars eliminated this aspect of God from their writings. Over time, Jehovah God of the Jews and Muslims and the Triune God of Christians was portrayed as totally male. This is absolutely false and much scripture and early writings of the Church Fathers support this fact.
This is a book that is long past due! Many people have strived to bring a feminine aspect of God into mainstream faith, but none have used credible sources to present so much evidence that cannot be refuted.

It is also a book that is essential for our times. This truth of the Holy Spirit being feminine brings a value to women that they have not enjoyed since Jesus promoted them as equal with men before God. Hurting societies around the world will not heal until the influence of women rises to balance male dominance. Man, woman, Christian, Jew or Muslim, this hi is a MUST- READ!!!

TO GOD BE THE GLORY

Susannah,

There are some fundamental biblical errors in this piece:

• 'The fact that the Holy Spirit is feminine'. This is false as to pneuma is a neuter definite article and noun. Since all nouns and definite articles in Greek are assigned a gender (like German), that does not determine whether they are referred to as he, she or it. The context determines that.
• Since the Holy Spirit is the Advocate, Helper, the one called alongside to help, that person needs to be referred to as a person. Most often it is according to the convention of he. However, it is an erroneous claim that the Holy Spirit is feminine.

Nevertheless, I'm of the view that women in ministry have been dumbed down in the Christian church, unfairly and out of context with the Scriptures quoted. See the article by Prof N T Wright: Women’s Service in the Church: The Biblical Basis. I endorse a similar position: Are women supposed to be permanently silent in the church gathering?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't believe God dictated the Bible. If he did it never should have been translated so many different ways. When the Bible was written through inspiration all they had was male pronouns. Up until I was in college people did not use she even if they were talking about women. Believe it or not. Anyway this issue will never be resolved. I'm starting to understand that now. Everybody have a good day.

Susannah,

Do you read NT Greek? If you do, you would know your statement is false: ' When the Bible was written through inspiration all they had was male pronouns".

Why is the Holy Spirit neuter gender?

ho logos = the word (masculine)
ho theos = the God (masculine)
he zwe = the life (feminine)
he skotia = the darkness (feminine)
to phws = the light (neuter)

Even with male nouns referring to males or persons, there are a number of issues to consider when translating:

Older versions of the Bible traditionally translated the Hebrew and Greek words for persons as “man” and “men.” Yet, as noted above, these words are generic and usually refer to both men and women. Matthew 12:12 in the ESV reads, “Of how much more value is a man [anthropos] than a sheep!” (cf. HCSB, NASU, NKJV, NIV) Jesus is obviously referring to people here, so the TNIV more accurately renders it, “How much more valuable is a human being than a sheep!” (cf. NLT, NET, NAB, NRSV, GNT, NCV) In Mark 10:26-27, the disciples ask, “Who then can be saved?” In the NIV, Jesus responds, “With man [anthropos], this is impossible, but not with God.” The TNIV recognizes the inclusive nature of anthropos and translates, “With human beings, this is impossible, but not with God.” (cf. GNT, NET)

The Hebrew term ’adam, like the Greek anthropos, usually carries an inclusive sense, referring to both men and women. When in Genesis 6:7 the Lord says, “I will blot out man [’adam] whom I have created,” (NASU; cf. NKJV, ESV, RSV, HCSB) it is both males and females who will be judged. The NLT accurately renders, “I will completely wipe out this human race that I have created.” (cf. TNIV, NET, GW, GNT, CEV) The phrase, “Whoever sheds the blood of man [’adam]” in Genesis 9:6 (ESV) means “whoever sheds human blood.” (TNIV; cf. NLT, NRSV, GW) [Gender and Translation]

Oz

 

[Butch5]

What is the policy on Trinity discussions on this forum?

 

[OzSpen]

What is the policy on Trinity discussions on this forum?

Butch5,

Don't you agree with the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity - God is one in essence and there are 3 persons in the Trinity?

So you want to discuss unorthodox doctrines of the Trinity?

Oz

 

[PeterJens]

Butch5,

Don't you agree with the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity - God is one in essence and there are 3 persons in the Trinity?

So you want to discuss unorthodox doctrines of the Trinity?

Oz

The aim I would suggest is to explore what the Lord means.

For instance Jesus declaring He and the Father are one, is both a statement of heart and also eternity, yet they are also distinct.

To grasp this John describes Jesus as the word, part of the Father but not all.
I have heard trinitarians using moralist logic, not seeing the difference. So discussions are needed to explore what we mean.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,

Don't you agree with the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity - God is one in essence and there are 3 persons in the Trinity?

So you want to discuss unorthodox doctrines of the Trinity?

Oz

I'm just asking what the policy is. It seems that different forums have different policies on different doctrines.

 

[OzSpen]

The aim I would suggest is to explore what the Lord means.

For instance Jesus declaring He and the Father are one, is both a statement of heart and also eternity, yet they are also distinct.

To grasp this John describes Jesus as the word, part of the Father but not all.
I have heard trinitarians using moralist logic, not seeing the difference. So discussions are needed to explore what we mean.

PeterJens,

Sadly you have introduced false teaching into your statement that 'Jesus as the word [is] part of God'. That's close to the heresy of modalism.

This is my biblical understanding of the Trinity:

• There is one God and only one;
• He exists in three Persons;
• They are equal and eternal;
• So, they are worthy of equal praise and worship;
• The 'jobs' of each member of the Trinity are distinct, but they act in unity;
• Nevertheless, they constituting the one true God of the Bible.

Historically, the early church struggled to understand this. The Trinity was challenged by Arius who considered Jesus should be granted honour and majesty but not because he was fully God. He was a created being, even though the world was created through him. He had the divine attributes but he was not God.

This view was rejected at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325. However, this non-Trinitarian view is perpetrated today by people like the JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals and Christadelphians.

What emerged from this Council was a concise definition of the Trinity.

• God is one in Essence;
• God is three in Person

So, the Trinity indicates the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. These are not 3 Gods but one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.

While each is God individually, they work together as the one true God of the Bible.

To explain the above statements about the Trinity, I have written 2 articles explaining this more fully:

• Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
• How to understand three persons in the Trinity

Oz

 

[Butch5]

PeterJens,

Sadly you have introduced false teaching into your statement that 'Jesus as the word [is] part of God'. That's close to the heresy of modalism.

This is my biblical understanding of the Trinity:

• There is one God and only one;
• He exists in three Persons;
• They are equal and eternal;
• So, they are worthy of equal praise and worship;
• The 'jobs' of each member of the Trinity are distinct, but they act in unity;
• Nevertheless, they constituting the one true God of the Bible.

Historically, the early church struggled to understand this. The Trinity was challenged by Arius who considered Jesus should be granted honour and majesty but not because he was fully God. He was a created being, even though the world was created through him. He had the divine attributes but he was not God.

This view was rejected at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325. However, this non-Trinitarian view is perpetrated today by people like the JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals and Christadelphians.

What emerged from this Council was a concise definition of the Trinity.

• God is one in Essence;
• God is three in Person

So, the Trinity indicates the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. These are not 3 Gods but one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.

While each is God individually, they work together as the one true God of the Bible.

To explain the above statements about the Trinity, I have written 2 articles explaining this more fully:

• Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
• How to understand three persons in the Trinity

Oz

You said there is one God, but you also said each is individually God. When you say individual you mark distinct individuals, not a collective. Each indicates more than one. Your two statements seems to conflict with each other. Can you explain?

 

[JLB]

I'm just asking what the policy is. It seems that different forums have different policies on different doctrines.

The policies in this forum are an extension of the main Forum.

Please share your perspective on the Trinity.

Personally, I don’t use the word Trinity.

I use Godhead.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You said there is one God, but you also said each is individually God. When you say individual you mark distinct individuals, not a collective. Each indicates more than one. Your two statements seems to conflict with each other. Can you explain?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

• These three are one.

Some people believe and teach this one is three.

These three individuals, collectively are one.

Individually each one is God, otherwise collectively they would be something other than God; something other than holy, pure.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

• These three are one.

Some people believe and teach this one is three.

These three individuals, collectively are one.

Individually each one is God, otherwise collectively they would be something other than God; something other than holy, pure.



JLB

Are you aware that 1 John 5:7 doesn't appear until late manuscripts?

 

[JLB]

Are you aware that 1 John 5:7 doesn't appear until late manuscripts?

I’m aware that some people say this.


If you don’t want to believe the KJV or the NKJV, then what version do you want to believe?


JLB

 

[Butch5]

I’m aware that some people say this.


If you don’t want to believe the KJV or the NKJV, then what version do you want to believe?


JLB

Actually, I use the KJV the most. However, I don't believe that passage is original.

 

[Butch5]

The policies in this forum are an extension of the main Forum.

Please share your perspective on the Trinity.

Personally, I don’t use the word Trinity.

I use Godhead.



JLB

Hi JLB,

My understanding of the Trinity is not the typical one. The Bible does speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In that sense there is a Trinity. However, I don't believe that they are three different persons. The word "Theos" is a title. I find that people tend to equivocate on the word God. Sometimes the Father is called God, sometimes the Son and sometimes the Spirit. But, sometimes God is referred to as "He" with no reference to any of the three. This is where I think the equivocation comes in.

I believe the Godhead, which is old English for Godhood, consists of two beings, the Father and the Son. This is also consistent with the early church. Tertullian, the man credited with coining the term "Trinity" as it concerns God also said there were two being. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a limited manifestation of the Father, not a third person.

 

[OzSpen]

You said there is one God, but you also said each is individually God. When you say individual you mark distinct individuals, not a collective. Each indicates more than one. Your two statements seems to conflict with each other. Can you explain?

Butch5,

I'll try to explain but there are mysteries in the nature of God that I don't fully comprehend.

Let's see if I can make this as simple as I know how. This is how the Trinity is defined in a brief diagram:

(image courtesy slideplayer.com)​

I find this to be a helpful summary of the attributes of the Trinity.

The persons and deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit

The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)​

This 'Shield' was used to explain the Trinity from very early in church history.

The Trinity teaches:

God, the Father, is regarded as God. ‘For on him God the Father has set his seal’ (Jn 6:27 ESV); ‘God our Father’ (Rm 1:7 ESV); ‘God the Father’ and ‘God the Father’ (Gal 1:1, 3). Isn’t that clear enough? The Father is God.

God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscience (Jn 4:24; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8); Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18; (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

God, the Holy Spirit, is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter ‘it’ but as a person, ‘he’. He is the Comforter/Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No ‘it’ can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11).

There is only one God (Deut 4:35; 6:4; Ps 83:18; 1 Cor 8:4).

Theologically, I have found the best way to explain the intricacies of the Godhead is that God is:

• One in essence, and is
• Three persons.
• These distinctions are eternal.

In preparing these Scriptures I have been assisted by Henry Thiessen (1949:134-146). Thiessen notes that ‘the doctrine of the tripersonality of God is not in conflict with the doctrine of the unity of God. There are three persons in the one essence…. These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which imply Christ’s existence with the Father from eternity (John 1:1, 2; Phil. 2:6; John 17:5, 24) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Heb. 9:14)’ (Thiessen 1949:145).

Although the words Trinity, Triunity or tripersonality do not appear in Scripture, the teachings do, as I’ve attempted to show. Exact wording should not put us off. Try finding these words in the Bible: Rapture, inerrancy, infallibility, Bible, literal interpretation, Sunday, Christmas, Easter, ‘Jesus is God’, etc. However, all these teachings can be demonstrated from the Bible.

The above exposition only begins to answer the question: Where does the Scripture command anyone to believe in the Trinitarian God? The God revealed in Scripture and who acted in history as described in Old and New Testaments is the Trinitarian God. The God I worship is no Unitarian or Deist God. He is the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

duplicate